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Roadie posted:I have to wonder how many people in this thread whining about the decline of tech literacy lack the car literacy to safely replace a bad intake valve. That's not a bad analogy for the reasons behind that declining literacy rate. Cars were much easier to maintain and that maintenance was much easier to learn and internalise by the average motorist. But as cars became more advanced, proprietary technology started to prohibit common or generic parts from being used, as cars started to incorporate computers into their design, the process of maintaining and repairing vehicles becomes much more specialised and taken out of the hands of the user. The Tesla, a car that might suddenly stop on a highway because you couldn't pay the double-charged subscription fee, is the ultimate example of that. Nobody knows what goes on under the hood, and even if they wanted to they can't modify or repair that vehicle because it's an opaque design that only the manufacturer really understands, if they do at all. Same thing with computers. As they get more advanced, power over that machine is taken away from the user and given to specialists. This is not necessarily a preventable thing, few people have the time to learn about increasingly complicated systems when they're not being paid for it. But as that power gets traded away for convenience, you start to lose things which would have been considered basic or even essential functions of that device. You interact with the computer in increasingly limited ways. You start paying more for the same because it's less of a hassle. When something goes wrong you can't fix it yourself because it's not a simple fix anymore; even if it was, the device is so closed off that there's nothing you can do but continue to rely on specialists who have the authority to peek inside the black box.
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Aug 24, 2021 06:00
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i dont really buy the declining tech literacy argument. i think instead that highly accessible devices simply broadened the pool of constant computer users. people whose primary internet use device today is a smartphone very likely just wouldn't use the internet often at all in the pre-smartphone aughts. we wouldn't then consider them part of a group of devolved tech illiterates, but rather people who potentially could be computer touchers one day when the internet becomes more widely adopted i've been a computer nerd long enough to remember having to struggle through bullshit like motherboard jumpers and rolling back drivers and gently caress all of that. even desktops these days are way better and more reliable than they were in 2000, and i wouldn't have to learn half the poo poo i learned if i were born 20 years later. teenage PC gaming nerd me building my computer out of necessity for lack of money is fun in terms of "bad old days" stories, but it's easy to remember that era as rosier than it was because i haven't had an actual no-poo poo BSOD in probably five years or so i'm far more concerned about the corrosive effect of having the internet on everyone's person all of the time on their worldview, not their technical skills. its easier to teach people how to type or learn basic computer operations than it is to teach them to Just Log Off Already
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Aug 24, 2021 07:02
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If you're going to make a car analogy, then what comes to mind is the millennial experience of boomer parents 'teaching' you by making you hold a torch as they lean over and swear without ever bothering to actually explain or demonstrate anything, then getting irate at you for not knowing how. Also, nagging you to get a driver's licence while refusing to actually give you any lessons. (See also: Sports, relationships, home maintenance and cleaning, basic social skills) People can't expect to know things they aren't taught, and they aren't taught these things.
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Aug 24, 2021 07:15
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:i dont really buy the declining tech literacy argument. i think instead that highly accessible devices simply broadened the pool of constant computer users. people whose primary internet use device today is a smartphone very likely just wouldn't use the internet often at all in the pre-smartphone aughts. we wouldn't then consider them part of a group of devolved tech illiterates, but rather people who potentially could be computer touchers one day when the internet becomes more widely adopted  The kids are alright and if they never have to figure out how to use a printer then a better world has been passed on. I agree with the other posters about technology just becoming marginally less poo poo (and thus not forcing people to tinker constantly.) Also, most of the direction in new tech has been anti-keyboard driven now for years. Someday email will die and that will be the nail in the coffin for 75% of people and then everything after that will be done over chat and via point and tap guis on tablets. Is it simpler and dumber? Yes. That's the point.
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Aug 24, 2021 07:57
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You can take email from my cold dead hands
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Aug 24, 2021 08:08
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I mean, at some point most people are going to have to write a report or an invoice or something for work, right?
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Aug 24, 2021 08:26
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I assume what is meant is that eventually voice dictation will completely replace keyboards as the primary data entry method. Just on my own Pixel phone right now, I can open up the Recorder app, start talking, and it will not only record the audio but also transcribe live and on the device in real-time what I'm saying into reasonably accurate text, which I can then go back and correct manually.
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Aug 24, 2021 08:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If you're going to make a car analogy, then what comes to mind is the millennial experience of boomer parents 'teaching' you by making you hold a torch as they lean over and swear without ever bothering to actually explain or demonstrate anything, then getting irate at you for not knowing how. Also, nagging you to get a driver's licence while refusing to actually give you any lessons. (See also: Sports, relationships, home maintenance and cleaning, basic social skills) is typing and basic computer literacy not taught in school these days? i'll buy that it was the result of growing up during the time that computers were the new hotness that we were going to ride into the future, but i had basic computer literacy and typing classes at several points during my primary and secondary education. some of it might have been elective, but a bunch of it was definitely mandatory Clarste posted:I mean, at some point most people are going to have to write a report or an invoice or something for work, right? maybe at some point ai and voice inputs will kill physically touching computers the same way computers killed cursive edit: makes you wonder why they had to keep touching input panels in star trek when they can just speak a vague directive at the compute GhostofJohnMuir fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 08:56
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Koumpounophilia posted:I assume what is meant is that eventually voice dictation will completely replace keyboards as the primary data entry method. Just on my own Pixel phone right now, I can open up the Recorder app, start talking, and it will not only record the audio but also transcribe live and on the device in real-time what I'm saying into reasonably accurate text, which I can then go back and correct manually. lol try being a non white american and using dictation, or doing any technical work in it whatsoever. The reason typing is important is that using it for office computers isn't going away anytime soon, or for a myriad of other things. It got dropped from schools because "digital natives will pick it up naturally!" and now we're seeing the consequences of that choice in that they aren't.
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Aug 24, 2021 09:26
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Nothingtoseehere posted:lol try being a non white american and using dictation, or doing any technical work in it whatsoever. You don't even need to be non-white https://youtu.be/TqAu-DDlINs Most existing voice recognition I've seen can't handle anything in the UK that isn't a home-counties accent.
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Aug 24, 2021 09:31
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Mega Comrade posted:Most existing voice recognition I've seen can't handle anything in the UK that isn't a home-counties accent. "Ah were sayin' yellor, and it dirren gerrit!"
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Aug 24, 2021 10:38
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Mega Comrade posted:You don't even need to be non-white I have a home counties accent and they don't work for me either. I mean "try being not American or a non-white American"
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Aug 24, 2021 10:42
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:is typing and basic computer literacy not taught in school these days? i'll buy that it was the result of growing up during the time that computers were the new hotness that we were going to ride into the future, but i had basic computer literacy and typing classes at several points during my primary and secondary education. some of it might have been elective, but a bunch of it was definitely mandatory Not anymore! Nothingtoseehere posted:lol try being a non white american and using dictation, or doing any technical work in it whatsoever. Basically the entire post-boomer development has been to neglect actually teaching children anything practical on the assumption that knowledge appears through spontaneous generation, and instead focus on standardised testing and giving them electronics to shut them up while the parents sit on the couch watching TV all day. Like, the whole generations of NEETs, incels and other shut-in weirdos are a result of being raised basically as indoor feral children. The boomers are all mad at kids for not knowing the things they actively prevented them from learning.
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Aug 24, 2021 10:44
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that has more to do with economic and academic disinvestment than some kind of generational-specific parenting failure its not like boomers grew up in an era of enlightened parenting, things were just cheaper and easier then
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Aug 24, 2021 10:50
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I teach an intro to game programming course at a community college. It's meant for students to take their first semester. It's fascinating the things students struggle with computer literacy-wise during their first few weeks. We tell them the first day they need a base level of computer skills for the course. I can't teach people how to use a mouse (this has happened). I'd say the big two are file management and typing ability. I know it happened a few pages back, but I wanted to add to the Adobe chat. I have very mixed feelings about that company. I use a lot of their software, especially since they acquired one of the companies I use a lot for game art. They have a really great pricing model for students. Some of it is completely free for students too. I try my best to choose professional software for them that they don't have to pay anything for or is a lot cheaper. I remember having to pirate Photoshop/Premiere/After Effects when I was in college because I couldn't afford it and my school computer lab wasn't 24/7. When you're using multiple software packages it's nice when they just talk so well to each other to make your life easier.
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Aug 24, 2021 11:06
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I'm having a great deal of difficulty trying to square 'everyone learn2code' with voice-only input. Good luck with that. Same with efficient data entry, as much as we like to pretend that it can all be automated.Roadie posted:I have to wonder how many people in this thread whining about the decline of tech literacy lack the car literacy to safely replace a bad intake valve. Why would I need to fix the car I've never owned? Also, soon (TM) the TSA will approve FSD Tesla roaming the streets as automated taxis, killing personal vehicles and also ushering on a renaissance of urban renewal towards less car-centric suburban hellscapes and hey stop picking at the contradiction there.
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Aug 24, 2021 11:49
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How are u posted:Would you be willing to elaborate on your experience? How do the teens feel about typing? How do the lack of these abilities seem to affect them in the context of your class or assignments? They prefer to handwrite. There is a computer skills class that they have to take and they universally hate it. When I ask why the most common answer is "I'm not good with computers". The PC gamers in the bunch obviously love computers, but the average student wouldn't touch a computer if we didn't force them to.
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Aug 24, 2021 13:35
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:is typing and basic computer literacy not taught in school these days? i'll buy that it was the result of growing up during the time that computers were the new hotness that we were going to ride into the future, but i had basic computer literacy and typing classes at several points during my primary and secondary education. some of it might have been elective, but a bunch of it was definitely mandatory it depends on how much money the district has but yeah, i think generally american students get at least one semester of typing. bougier schools will roll computer literacy into part of the introductory STEM classes. my kid is scheduled for the first such class (basic typing) in the third grade, and by the end of elementary school there is a general class of 'library skills' which is basically the 'how to use the internet to do research' class. i was also advised by the kindergarten teacher to make sure that my kid gets some mouse-using practice in, because young kids sometimes struggle to complete computerized standard tests if they're not so familiar with using a mouse
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Aug 24, 2021 13:48
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If you're going to make a car analogy, then what comes to mind is the millennial experience of boomer parents 'teaching' you by making you hold a torch as they lean over and swear without ever bothering to actually explain or demonstrate anything, then getting irate at you for not knowing how. Also, nagging you to get a driver's licence while refusing to actually give you any lessons. (See also: Sports, relationships, home maintenance and cleaning, basic social skills) My immigrant parents never explicitly taught me how to cook, clean, make friends, etc. but it was implictly understood I'd learn by watching and it seems to me that many parents wanted to do it that way but didn't themselves have the knowledge or couldn't be good examples for their kids to pick things up from. And without either the cultural expectation or understanding that the kids learn by watching or the parents modeling that behavior, you get the present situation. Cooking actually seems like a good analogy when it comes to something like touch typing or understanding how filesystems are structured. You don't have to be a gourmet chef but you should be able to throw something together to keep yourself fed, yet many can't do even that 
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Aug 24, 2021 14:08
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https://twitter.com/shannonpareil/status/1422308916654870530
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Aug 24, 2021 14:09
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:My immigrant parents never explicitly taught me how to cook, clean, make friends, etc. but it was implictly understood I'd learn by watching and it seems to me that many parents wanted to do it that way but didn't themselves have the knowledge or couldn't be good examples for their kids to pick things up from. And without either the cultural expectation or understanding that the kids learn by watching or the parents modeling that behavior, you get the present situation. The implicit learning by observation doesn't actually happen either, that's exactly what I was talking about. The process usually goes straight from 'You're too young, you'll just screw it up' to 'You're old enough you should already know how to do this' with nothing in between. See also all the kids who get shoved out onto the field to play sports they have no idea of the rules of or what their role is, with everyone refusing to explain and then yelling at them for getting it wrong.
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Aug 24, 2021 14:37
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Had this happen to me a couple months ago and I can attest to FB support being essentially non-existent. I sure as poo poo wouldn't pay $300 to get it back though. Ghost Leviathan posted:See also all the kids who get shoved out onto the field to play sports they have no idea of the rules of or what their role is, with everyone refusing to explain and then yelling at them for getting it wrong. This seems like a really specific personal memory. e: That article also had some choice bits that dovetail into this discussion on tech literacy: Somebody in the article posted:"The very first concern, after realizing that I was getting hacked, is that these folks might be able to gain access to my business's bank account," said Ben Coleman in Fall River, Mass. "That would be a disaster." Baronash fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 14:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:See also all the kids who get shoved out onto the field to play sports they have no idea of the rules of or what their role is, with everyone refusing to explain and then yelling at them for getting it wrong. Wasn't this a Calvin & Hobbes storyline?
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Aug 24, 2021 14:47
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I was kind of vague, what I was saying is:
As to tech literacy, the parents of kids today are gen x or millennials, who should have the tech skills (at least among the SA demographic) to impart on their kids if schools don't.
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Aug 24, 2021 14:50
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Roadie posted:I have to wonder how many people in this thread whining about the decline of tech literacy lack the car literacy to safely replace a bad intake valve. For a lot of people, working on their car is illegal (on the street) or grounds for eviction (in their rental's parking spot). This post assumes a homeowner.
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Aug 24, 2021 15:31
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Roadie posted:I have to wonder how many people in this thread whining about the decline of tech literacy lack the car literacy to safely replace a bad intake valve. Worth noting: This isn't just a lack of literacy, you need a lot of special tools to replace valves: Valve spring compressors, tools to re-seat the valve properly. This isn't an everyday hobbyist task. You can do it, but its a lot more work than most people will have time, tools, or capability to do. Even then, in most cases where you need to replace valves, its more likely the engine will need a complete overhaul. Usually replacing valves means something catastrophic has happened to the engine. Source: I build VW/Audi engines both diesel and gasoline. https://twitter.com/stacyfmitchell/status/1430149663735402514?s=20 TL;DR: Big Box stores tends to screw the communities they claim to serve. https://twitter.com/josephfcox/status/1430161392364044292?s=20 CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 15:36
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MickeyFinn posted:For a lot of people, working on their car is illegal (on the street) or grounds for eviction (in their rental's parking spot). This post assumes a homeowner. physically also it's a different level of ask. it's no problem at all for me to reinstall an OS and get everything configured, but while changing oil is conceptually simple gently caress me crawling around on the ground under a car and dealing with a pan of used oil to dispose of, it's way worth it to just pay someone forty bucks to deal with that mess. i'm sure someone would be willing to pay me forty bucks to do basic computer touching but if i like them enough i'll just do it for free because its no big deal at all to keep clicking next the problem with this line of argument is that it's not taking regional fragmentation and jurisdiction shopping into account, which is a big driver of sprawl. there isn't just one city in a metro, there is a patchwork of dozens if not hundreds of cities and unincorporated areas, each with their own varying ability to determine land use and building permits. while this argument is definitely valid for land use decisions within the same jurisdiction, it doesn't help if walmart is trying to build just outside of your city limits
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Aug 24, 2021 16:00
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CommieGIR posted:https://twitter.com/stacyfmitchell/status/1430149663735402514?s=20 This guy has a good video on suburbs which touches on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVUeqxXwCA0
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Aug 24, 2021 16:10
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Generic Monk posted:This guy has a good video on suburbs which touches on this: while i agree strongly with this polemic, it is dependent on ignoring the fact that beautiful old cities with traditional, walkable downtowns also have tons of automotive suburbs these days - its mostly a chronological bias based on the age of the city versus the introduction of mechanized transportation, and the impact this has on fundamental land use patterns. like boston and (technically) NYC have the same walkability as paris. imo this video is not as informative as it is just sneering, which is nice to radicalize people to care about urban development i guess but doesn't equip them with any effective tools to discuss problems or solutions other than cultural posturing the core argument at about 5 minutes in is also critically flawed. to paraphrase, "old patterns of development simply raise more tax revenue than new patterns of development", which is a pretty weird thing to say if we consider the highest and best use of land. what did the new thing replace? probably some commercial property which wasn't as lucrative in terms of revenue to the landowner, because otherwise, they'd keep collecting those rents. the same problem carries through to talking about how big boxes dont generate as much revenue as downtowns, which... yeah? the big box is replacing empty or agricultural land probably, not developed downtown commercial basically there's not a lot of meat in this video compared to just superficial aesthetic criticism about how ugly suburbs are which, cool, this is not an uncommon criticism. i dont really disagree with anything this video says but i think it is just completely bungled in the articulation of these points, and comes off as unnecessarily snobbish
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Aug 24, 2021 16:26
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I see there's already a literal proffesional engine builder ITT, but I wanted to point out the other side of "cars used to be easier to work on", and that's that you had to work on them, both more frequently and for dumb reasons none of has to gently caress with any more. So, yes, a home garage with some basic hand tools can do a lot to keep a car from the 50's and 60's running, but you'll be loving with it almost constantly compared to a modern car. Just think of how you have to gently caress with the carbureator on your lawn mower every spring, but for the whole drat car. In that way the "Tech Literacy" analogy continues to work well, but isn't so clear that the past was 100% better. Edit: See also, the concept of a "tune up", which is no longer really relevant to cars made in the last ten years. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 18:44
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:the core argument at about 5 minutes in is also critically flawed. to paraphrase, "old patterns of development simply raise more tax revenue than new patterns of development", which is a pretty weird thing to say if we consider the highest and best use of land. what did the new thing replace? probably some commercial property which wasn't as lucrative in terms of revenue to the landowner, because otherwise, they'd keep collecting those rents. the same problem carries through to talking about how big boxes dont generate as much revenue as downtowns, which... yeah? the big box is replacing empty or agricultural land probably, not developed downtown commercial The big box is more lucrative to the landowner (why do we care about this anyway?) because the suburb is heavily subsidizing all of the infrastructure supporting it, which fine, this particular video doesn't say outright (I think it's foreshadowed as coming in the next video in the series) but is too important of a point to just ignore given the tweet that inspired this conversation. Also if it's replacing fertile agricultural land that's even more of a disaster.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:01
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Jack B Nimble posted:Edit: See also, the concept of a "tune up", which is no longer really relevant to cars made in the last ten years. It isn't? Cool! What changed?
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Aug 24, 2021 19:09
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Not exactly tech but it's Silicon Valley'esc shortcut food gimmick so still feel it fits here. https://squareat.com/squares For those who want dystopian future prison food. Invest now! Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 19:13
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:As to tech literacy, the parents of kids today are gen x or millennials, who should have the tech skills (at least among the SA demographic) to impart on their kids if schools don't. Just a reminder that the upper end of the Zoomer age range is 24, and there are definitely Zoomer parents out there whose primary computing device for most of their lives has been a smartphone.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:17
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It isn't? Cool! What changed? Computers. Having a computer in your car that can constantly make adjustments as the engine wears in/out or changes, or alert you to what actually needs to be fixed, made tune ups largely just a misnomer for changing oil and filters. That and cars have, for the most part, moved away from valve rockers that require adjustments (used to be you have to change shims on overhead valves or make adjustments for the valve rocker as the car aged). Now nearly everything that used to need constant adjustment auto-adjusts itself either electrically, hydraulically, or mechanically. Everything in your engine bay is electronic or electromechanical, and can adjust themselves over time rather than requiring a mechanic to make changes to the machinery. \/\/\/\/\/\/ Also what Motronic said. Used to be everything on the car with a bearing/seal had to be greased and checked. Don't have to do that anymore at all. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 19:18
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It isn't? Cool! What changed? The bulk of it is electronic ignition and better spark plugs. You used to need to set points, timing, and mess with the carb twice a year or so. Plugs only lasted for 15k miles, and you often needed to gap them in between changes. A bit more of it is properly sealed bearings. You don't need to hit 28 different zerk fittings every 3,000 miles anymore. You don't need to manually adjust the drum brakes every few thousand miles. I'm probably forgetting some stuff, but those are the highlights.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:19
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The implicit learning by observation doesn't actually happen either, that's exactly what I was talking about. The process usually goes straight from 'You're too young, you'll just screw it up' to 'You're old enough you should already know how to do this' with nothing in between. A lot of jobs are kind of like this too. When I start a new one, I try my best to let them know to "first show me, then watch me, then let me go and correct me" except without fail they show me the "rules" and then turn me loose too soon where I quickly realize that all those rules are different for every job. It's like, even if I know how to do the actual work, I don't know how THEY process it after only 2 days and then they think I'm an idiot. "All the information is right here" except it isn't and a lot of it contradicts each other. Every shop is unique and does things in different ways. Owners and managers all seem to think it's simple. The extent to which most places try to...not automate but "streamline" everything by having Google spreadsheets and online data entry handle everything not only gets too complicated but, more importantly, doesn't work and breaks down unless EVERYONE is entering poo poo correctly. Which they don't. I wind up with a base order entry system that's incomplete but then 5 other areas I'm supposed to check for information about stuff I need to work on, none of which are tagged with a job number or what have you. The working files I need - the "art" - could be in any one of 4 or 5 places. Same with the "changes" and so forth. It's maddening. I can easily spend at least 1/3 of my time digging around all the different places I'm supposed to check for instructions, files and information about a single job but the managers all think it's all clear as day. Also, seconding that gmail is loving terrible for anything other than having a burner account for Amazon. I find the whole interface complete poo poo and totally counter intuitive to staying organized.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:48
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eXXon posted:The big box is more lucrative to the landowner (why do we care about this anyway?) you have to care about what the landowner finds most profitable because this is what drives land use decisions in a market based economy. it is also relevant when you are making claims based on the taxable value of property and redevelopment decisions. the decision to redevelop is based on what the landowner thinks they can do to maximize profit while minimizing costs. it's silly to say "this old use A generates more taxes than this new use B" without considering what old use C the new use B replaced. it's a fine argument if you're already looking for reasons to say that old use A is superior, though eXXon posted:because the suburb is heavily subsidizing all of the infrastructure supporting it, which fine, this particular video doesn't say outright (I think it's foreshadowed as coming in the next video in the series) but is too important of a point to just ignore given the tweet that inspired this conversation. yeah, there's a point to be made about big box retail and how it doesn't live up to funding expectations, but as i said earlier it is critical to look at this in the context of a jurisdictionally fragmented regional economy. if i, the evilsville planning board, do not care about the tax base or walkability of traditional downtown bikesville then i'm going to recapture their tax base as my own by authorizing big box uses or strip malls really whatever's going to get me a cash out on my own unutilized lots. the people of bikesville can go to hell. neglecting this political economy to simplify things down to the perspective of cities as being unchanging, single entities with no conflicting interests or authority writes off a huge reason why sprawl happens in the first place - because each individual land use authority is looking for their own interests first and foremost, on a short term time frame, and they don't really care about what happens elsewhere or elsewhen. it's like trying to rationally logic someone out of doing an air pollution here and now by trying to appeal to the health of someone yet to be born on the other side of the world cities subsidize infrastructure, that is like the main reason they exist. whether the subsidy was cost effective for the revenue (or quality of life) generated is a different question, but it's real easy to wrap a superficial version of this argument around a primarily aesthetic criticism (sprawl is ugly, and fast food is gross!) like i said, i don't disagree with the sentiment and i largely find the strong towns ponzi sprawl argument to be decent if not troubled. i just think this particular video is poorly argued eXXon posted:Also if it's replacing fertile agricultural land that's even more of a disaster. the fate of farmland is to be converted into housing
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Aug 24, 2021 19:57
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https://twitter.com/VICE/status/1430152985938628610?s=20quote:... AI really is the gift that keeps on giving.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:59
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:is typing and basic computer literacy not taught in school these days? i'll buy that it was the result of growing up during the time that computers were the new hotness that we were going to ride into the future, but i had basic computer literacy and typing classes at several points during my primary and secondary education. some of it might have been elective, but a bunch of it was definitely mandatory ah and there it is the weird goon hateboner for cursive. and maybe even ALL OF HANDWRITING because allowing big tech companies to have biometric voice data is good AND, allowing some text font to speak for ALL of human output is good. Mega Comrade posted:Not exactly tech but it's Silicon Valley'esc shortcut food gimmick so still feel it fits here. dont they know the hexagons tile better and are more efficient?
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Aug 24, 2021 20:14
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