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nine-gear crow posted:I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Anno said happened. Gendo had a traumatic Instrumentality process because he was that deeply hosed up of a person, but it still ultimately counted. He's a non-factor from that point forward for the rest of the movie because he's gone through ego death and no longer exists like the rest of humanity aside from Shinji, Yui, and Rei. His entire reunion with Yui was her showing up going "You were a real piece of poo poo, you know that?" and him going "Maybe I shouldn't have done this..." and them CHOMP. I try not to rely on authorial fiat to back myself up, but I am intrigued by the idea of Anno ever saying something that specific about interpreting Evangelion -- do you remember where you saw this? nine-gear crow posted:Anyone who missed this completely was probably lucky enough to never have even a mildly tense relationship with their parents or parental figures in their life. I cut my father off from my life for most of a decade and only spoke to him again when he was dying. He was a terrible human being, abusive (albeit more to my mother than my brother and I, to be fair) and a literal neo-nazi. My takes might be and probably are wrong for various other reasons but it's not for lack of experience with lovely parents. 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 01:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I try not to rely on authorial fiat to back myself up, but I am intrigued by the idea of Anno ever saying something that specific about interpreting Evangelion -- do you remember where you saw this? There's this quote from the theatrical guide book published at the time of EoE's release: quote:People are surrounded by emptiness... And loneliness fills their hearts. And when humans' history reaches its conclusion, Gendo Ikari will be reunited with his wife. Yui Ikari -- the woman who loved a man unworthy of love. Did the Instrumentality Project exist to bring her back? Instrumentality (Complementation) for Gendo could only mean the resurrection of Yui. Having achieved this eagerly awaited reunion, Gendou confesses that he was "afraid" -- afraid that contact with his son would only hurt his son. The hedgehog's dilemma whereby the nearer we draw to one another, the more we hurt each other. This may be the nature of people who estrange themselves from each other using barriers of the heart. Gendou was also this type of weak person. Like his son, Shinji, he was nothing more than a cowardly, weak man. With his last words "Forgive me... Shinji," Gendo is crushed by the jaws of Eva-01. Was this the retribution toward a man who kept running from the world, or was it also his salvation...? Basically Instrumentality happened for Gendo, only when it got the point of that whole "losing your physical self and ego" business, his end was a violent retribution for his sins rather than a joyous reunion with or validation from a loved one. Basically a much more dramatic version of what happened to Aoba, who died screaming in terror chased by a fuckton of Reis because he had no one in his life who he loved or cared for.
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Aug 26, 2021 01:27
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nine-gear crow posted:There's this quote from the theatrical guide book published at the time of EoE's release: Thanks, very much appreciated. I'd never seen that quote before.
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Aug 26, 2021 01:32
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You know what we didn't get? The gorilla.
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Aug 26, 2021 02:06
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Wish Misato had the chance to utter the iconic line "HIT 'EM AGAIN!"
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Aug 26, 2021 02:27
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FilthyImp posted:Wish Misato had the chance to utter the iconic line "HIT 'EM AGAIN!" Please, like Khara would acknowledge anything from an older localization?
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Aug 26, 2021 03:06
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ImpAtom posted:The scene with Gendo and Shinji was not him coaching his dad through suicide. It was a genuine heartfelt expression of the person Gendo is presented to Shinji for the first time in his life, and Shinji was allowed to understand the person that Gendo was. It was literally "A son comes to understand that his father is a fallible, lonely, mortal man" and it isn't about forgiveness or excusive his behavior, just understanding of what made this man who he was and why it had such a tremendous impact on Shinji's life. It's part of coming to terms with an abusive parent. Agree with this. In addition, near the end of that whole sequence, Gendo realizes that he didn't completely lose Yui - his son was a piece of her. It seems like such a simple concept that your loved one lives on through your children but he was so broke-brained that he never realized it. Also, there's a lot of takes here that mostly draw from personal experience, that's why it's kind of head-scratching for others to read, because people are applying their own biases and interpretations rather than trying to see it from the author's perspective. I don't think it makes it any less valid, what you get out of media is what you get out of it. That said, the self-stated reason that Shinji does the cooking+cleaning is because nobody else was doing it; he didn't want to live in a pigsty and eat whatever garbage Misato was keeping around likely long past its expiration date. He did it for others because he ultimately seeks validation and wants to be of use to other people. That's what I got out of it, I thought it was fairly obviously but mileage may vary. Also, I saw all 4 movies in one sitting after only seeing the original series + EoE, and I gotta say: The sequence when Unit 01 first goes berserk is still one of the iconic moments in anime. In the movie it was almost, if not entirely a frame by frame copy of the series, with one of the most kicking tracks I've ever heard, and I honestly can't believe it was hand-drawn. Series in mid 2000s didn't look that good. Hell maybe even today. Can't believe that it happened in 1995. dipwood fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 03:32
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Dishwasher posted:It devastates me that Rei 2 never got to have her super wholesome luncheon, in a way that very, very few things have. While I severely doubt it would have been wholesome in the least, I would like to see what happens with all those characters sitting around a table eating a meal. It would be the most dysfunctional thing imaginable.
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Aug 26, 2021 04:36
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Gendo realizing Yui was still alive inside Shinji, followed by Gendo getting off the train, and then Shinji guiding Kaworu and others through getting off the train themselves, had a real Buddhist undertone to it for me. Evangelion is basically christian imagery: the show, but end of eva had kind of an interesting intersection with zen buddhism. Instrumentality feels more like some sort of attempt to force one's way into nirvana rather than into heaven. It's like, literally breaking human matter down into a primordial, unconditioned, nondualistic, interdependent goo. Human life is a drop of water returning to the teeming mass of the instrumentality ocean. But the realization Shinji has is that he has to reject that kind of state, because reality isn't some giant wish fulfillment spirit-orgy, it's about co-existing with other living beings in a physical world. EoE ends with Shinji and Asuka both literally awakening after "having crossed the shore," staring out at the giant Rei head on the other side. The bodhisattva's vow goes like this: May I be a guard for the protectorless, A guide for those who wander on the road. For those who wish to cross over the water, May I be a boat, a raft, a bridge. Shinji gets some major bodhisattva vibes at the end of Rebuild, acting as a guide to help others get off at their train stop. I don't know if this is necessarily intended to be a capital-B Buddhist theme, or if it's just that Japan absorbed enough zen ideology that bodhisattva-like qualities are naturally going to be represented in a character's transformation into a mature, reconciliatory figure. But it really stood out to me as an interesting transformation that occurred between EoE and Rebuild 4, that Shinji went from escaping Instrumentality on his own to actively being there to help other people escape as well. Swilo posted:While I severely doubt it would have been wholesome in the least, I would like to see what happens with all those characters sitting around a table eating a meal. It would be the most dysfunctional thing imaginable. If Ikuhara did Evangelion it absolutely would have happened and would have just been a full, awkward-rear end dinner scene. Gendo would ask Rei to pass the hot sauce and she'd say that she has never had any in the house, and Gendo would grunt and drop the subject. but in the next episode Gendo and Shinji would bump into each other at Rei's doorstep each holding a bottle of hot sauce and shinji would just start sweating while looking down at his feet. Cephas fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 04:37
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So, why are we still doing spoilers?
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Aug 26, 2021 05:02
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Christ how do I talk about the trans interpretation of Shinji that I don't agree with but also get. dipwood posted:That said, the self-stated reason that Shinji does the cooking+cleaning is because nobody else was doing it; he didn't want to live in a pigsty and eat whatever garbage Misato was keeping around likely long past its expiration date. He did it for others because he ultimately seeks validation and wants to be of use to other people. That's what I got out of it, I thought it was fairly obviously but mileage may vary. (Some of this isn't directly aimed at you but this is a jump off point). A lot of the reason I think it works for people is because a trans Shinji is a Shinji who is still in the closet about it. Trans people tend to live our pre out lives dictated by what others tell us about ourselves. You are a boy so why aren't you more decisive? That's women's work. Why aren't you more manly? You like women, sex and straight porn right? You aren't gay are you? We perform for the sake of others when growing up and when asked 'are you this or not?' we move our bodies like the hedgehog cuddling for warmth to avoid those poking questions that hurt us even if it means we are being injured by them in the process. We see other people's descriptions of us as actually being us while ignoring who we feel we are when we are alone. We are told who we are supposed to be and we try to act it instead of finding a natural fit for ourselves. Shinji is generally treated like poo poo for being a caring, empathetic, thoughtful human being. He also acts out at times because he doesn't know how to play the role of Eva Pilot, like trans people have to play the role of their assigned genders from birth. It becomes a very easy line to draw that Shinji is trans because so much of his experience can be read as 'you are trying to play the role of x and failing because that role is not who you really are and it shouldn't have to be'. End of Evangelion as the outpouring of who you really think you are, and coming to terms with how painful being rejected for who you are would be to you, and then still taking the loving leap to let that happen? And being told you're disgusting? Christ almighty I just had a flashback to my own dark place before telling my family I was trans. Is this the strongest read and what Anno meant? No, it's honestly a more general feeling of alienation most likely but god if it isn't cathartic to have in your mind a sense of how relatable this loving kid was when you were a preteen/teen who loathed themself and was trying not to hurt yourself or others. So I feel for that interpretation because it's comforting in a way to have something that just, makes sense on an instinctual level. But I also am able to let Rebuild be a different thing for a different person who is not me. Not being trans doesn't make your feelings of being unwanted or unloved any less valid in relating to Shinji. Rebuild just took it and said 'yes it's possible to be that self actualized person and have people respect you instead of calling you disgusting, even your lovely rear end dad'. Which honestly is what I needed to hear to an extent because I still relate to this Shinji who wears a suit even despite being a woman. Shinji comes to terms with being themself, and is validated by people around him for it. I liked it a lot.
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Aug 26, 2021 06:35
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chiasaur11 posted:And the last moment for Gendo and Yui is an act of parental self-sacrifice. Again, the goal is saving Shinji, and the secondary goal is being together. Dying is a consequence, not a goal. I took this to also thematically tie-in to the broader commentary of the young suffering because of the decisions of the older generation, and a somewhat meta-commentary of "Look at the world. We need to get out of the way" which is why all older characters were absent from the final scene. The children were finally grown up and not haunted by an older generation destroying their world and as such, I thought Yui & Gendo's sacrifice was quite cathartic and despite the morbid symbolism, it felt needed.
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Aug 26, 2021 07:27
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Gendo's instrumentality is a hell of a journey. The more people talk about it here the more I get thinking about it. My hot take on it is: back in EoE, Gendo had a idea of what he did wrong but did not really face it properly. He got chomped... but he got to see Yui again. ( also at that stage Rei had made Shinji the focus of EoE's instrumentality, so Gendo was more resigned and regretful, than instrmentalised into self actualization ) maybe it was just that the focus was meant to be on Shinji in EoE, and Gendo finally did see the truth and we just did not get the chance to see it. But it didn't really feel like we got to see him take true ownership for his actions. But Jfc did we see Gendo get his in 3+1. From my read, Gendo, for the first time, realized the totally of his gently caress up. After all those years being in his own head, refusing to connect to anyone but Yui, that Yui was the only connection, that everything was justified to meet her again... he finally was shown how wrong he was. He saw that he and Shinji could have a similar connection, that in some way they always did. I took the comment that Yui was in Shinji all along as meaning: As her son, she would always be there in a way but also that Shinji represented what Yui was to Gendo: another person whom he could connect with and love, that it was possible to do without Yui. That is Gendo's instrumentality: he finally understood the damage he had done, the delusion he was in. The pain he had caused to the only other person who wanted to connect with him. Gendo got a faith worse than death, he was forced to truly see himself and accept it. The the shame , guilt and remorse was palpable as Gendo left the train, he was a parent who for the first time owned and accepted and pain he had caused his child. Also when Gendo is telling Shiji his story (before Misato dies): When he was screaming "Yui" and saying also "I only see Rei here"... did anyone get the impression this was Gendo's past instrumentality experience, that he never really gets to be with Yui in past cycles?
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Aug 26, 2021 13:17
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Thank you for the very good and interesting post. I just wanted to add that things you are talking about are not purely trans. I am not trying to underplay how they would be more intense or pervasive for trans people, but everyone has their gender and sexuality policed. I'm a cishet dude, but I can clearly remember being mocked because my body language was "sissy." I was criticized for responding to a picture of an acquaintances girlfriend with insufficient levels of objectification. Called a slur for gay men by an adult as I walked by their house (I was ten). Obviously this stuff would have been more traumatic if I was queer, but it was still there. I think that Shinji really speaks to this part of the amab experience. It's a big part of how his character resonated with me, especially watching Eva as an adult. I really appreciate hearing about the similarities and differences in how that resonated for a trans person.
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Aug 26, 2021 14:19
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Foul Ole Ron posted:Also when Gendo is telling Shiji his story (before Misato dies): When he was screaming "Yui" and saying also "I only see Rei here"... did anyone get the impression this was Gendo's past instrumentality experience, that he never really gets to be with Yui in past cycles? I got the impression that it was what he experienced when he first entered the Anti-Universe. That he had been relying on Rei as a mental and emotional crutch and "Yui stand-in" for so long rather than making actual bonds with people (especially his own son) that when he actually got to the end with Yui's "soul" in-hand... he couldn't actually remember her enough to find her, and in all his memories of her, he only saw Rei in her place. Also, if Gendo knew that Yui was at least partially in Unit 01... how come he never tried going into an entry plug into her? Was that ever actually brought up?
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Aug 26, 2021 14:38
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Randalor posted:I got the impression that it was what he experienced when he first entered the Anti-Universe. That he had been relying on Rei as a mental and emotional crutch and "Yui stand-in" for so long rather than making actual bonds with people (especially his own son) that when he actually got to the end with Yui's "soul" in-hand... he couldn't actually remember her enough to find her, and in all his memories of her, he only saw Rei in her place. I assume because he has a zero sync rate so it would be entirely pointless. Even 13 still has other stuff in it if I recall correct and that's after Gendo fuses himself with divine knowledge
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Aug 26, 2021 14:43
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Foul Ole Ron posted:Gendo's instrumentality is a hell of a journey. The more people talk about it here the more I get thinking about it. My hot take on it is: Spot on. My theory is that Yui sent Gendo to the Rebirth loop in EoE as a form of purgatory, likely after multiple timelines of him either dying as a straight up enemy or after big speeches showing he simply learned nothing. That's why all he saw reflecting on his own previous instrumentalities in Golgotha Object was Rei; a constant reminder of his own failures. Both as a steward of his family (Rei would have been his real life daughter had he not pushed Yui into doing the contact experiment, along with literally everything else) and as humanity's alleged steward (look at the judgmental, fearful eyes of the Yui clones in the tanks telling him he's doing Bad poo poo there...before becoming an active Rei removes all their emotions of obvious protest, apprehension, and resentment from them). But he's on the cusp of really understanding he's the real rear end in a top hat in EoE, but needs the extra push. The timeline changes in Rebirth such as Rei 2 both planning and missing her luncheon, Shinji starting Third Impact early, and Gendo making himself a final boss that Shinji basically forces into the Perspective Train push Gendo to an ending he probably spent whole centuries of time not grasping, even though it was always right in front of him. Yui is a very protective mother. Until Gendo saw that Shinji is 1/2 Yui as well, she wasn't going to let him have peace. And being in control of these things now, why the hell should she? Like Aoba's horrible ending in EoE where the Reis claim him (before his 4.0 fistbump with Glasses Nerv Guy shows he knows about friendship now), Gendo is just cannon fodder for the Impact until he learns what he needs to learn. At the end, Yui seems just as happy that Gendo finally understood. 
Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 14:55
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i believe gendo has knowledge of previous cycles, but not the memories of his previous iterations. his entire perspective in 4 wouldn't make sense if he was a millennia-old time looping quasi-immortal. that's kaworu's role, anyway.
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Aug 26, 2021 15:43
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My interpretation of the reason for the “oh my god, it’s full of Reis!” line was the same as for Unit-01 not reaching out to save Shinji from the falling pieces of NERV HQ in 1.1: Yui’s soul was long departed from earth and drifting through space after EoE. None of the theoretical additional time loops got Gendo any closer to Yui at any of the Impacts. Only the technobabble surrounding the Golgotha Object made it possible for her to appear again, but only because of Shinj’s presence; had Gendo had gone in alone with Shinji following, he never would’ve found “Yui” SMERSH Mouth fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 15:51
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i believe gendo has knowledge of previous cycles, but not the memories of his previous iterations. his entire perspective in 4 wouldn't make sense if he was a millennia-old time looping quasi-immortal. that's kaworu's role, anyway. Totally. I think he had just enough knowledge to make better technology compared to previous loops, but only because Yui figured the climax he'd bring with that would get him closer to learning what he needed. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 15:54
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Really good posts! On first watch blind i was looking for a requiem for the human species or something after the huge moon sized stuff in 333 and ended up super disappointed. Going through it a second time with expectations set to "personal instrumentality for Gendo and Shinji" and liked it a lot better. bunch of screenz (me watching this movie the first time)  Shinji legit does try to kill himself with the new spear to end things, but then good ol mom sticks her hand out to save him again which is very nice.    Yui got those weird bolts on her hips like mari's unit05 outfit  background here seems similar to this eoe poster   one last hand shot  wunder dna spiral  spearm  hard work and guts! -gunbuster  seemed like not as many religious references in this film  and my new favorite part, Kaji and Kaworu going off to grow stuff (angels and people living together with plants)   unit05 has wheels  I think it ending on a shot of the modern real world is the movie saying that this is all we really have to try to rebuild in. There is a flock of birds over the power lines when mari appears at the station showing there is more life out there. So it is a nice and optimistic ending for the characters and a decent message to care about real things in addition to fiction at the same time. Sort of helps to picture it as kind of a time capsule of 2019 or whenever they finished writing it instead of 2021 since the world has gotten a bit harsher outside since then. Reminds me of Battle Royale (also the exploding collars lol.)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f23MwroLS9c&t=117s
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Aug 26, 2021 15:55
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SMERSH Mouth posted:My interpretation of the reason for the “oh my god, it’s full of Reis!” line was the same as for Unit-01 not reaching out to save Shinji from the falling pieces of NERV HQ in 1.1: Yui’s soul was long departed from earth and drifting through space after EoE. None of the theoretical additional time loops got Gendo any closer to Yui at any of the Impacts. Only the technobabble surrounding the Golgotha Object made it possible for her to appear again, but only because of Shinj’s presence; had Gendo had gone in alone with Shinji following, he never would’ve found “Yui” Agreed. I just think Gendo, Shinji, and Earth was gonna keep faffing about forever until things happened the "right" way and broke the chain. Yui says she wanted all that weird rear end End of World poo poo too, but for ultimately good intentions for humanity as a whole. Maybe she got up there and realized the main problem...was still in her very own household? And it was still her responsibility to help fix those, either as human or deity. She couldn't just run away after EoE either.
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Aug 26, 2021 16:09
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Wittgen posted:Thank you for the very good and interesting post. I just wanted to add that things you are talking about are not purely trans. I am not trying to underplay how they would be more intense or pervasive for trans people, but everyone has their gender and sexuality policed. Totally. As much as tbe interpretation is something that feels right there is a reason I said I don't really agree with it too much as a broad interpretation that trumps just a more general feeling of alienation. I have a friend who basically gets told 'trans Shinji is canon' on a regular basis by younger queer folk and both of us really don't agree with that as being a true or canon thing about the series though gender dysphoria is explored. Most people struggle through gender dysphoria I think, it's just a matter of how much of it is because of others trying to label you as a type of man, woman, non binary or other person that you are and making assumptions about you, or if your dysphoria is because of a rejection of your assigned birth gender. I get dysphoria even as a trans woman because I can't wear jeans like women do without being clocked as a man. I can't not wear makeup like women can and not be misgendered. Doing things that in the past would be seen as more masculine like wearing jeans or not wearing makeup forces me to play another role that sometimes I like (makeup and skirts rule) but sometimes I want to dress more like a punk rock fan. Dysphoria is complicated and while it's simple to say that Shinji is experiencing the dysphoria of a trans woman he's also just, dysphoric because he doesn't have a sense of self.
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Aug 26, 2021 16:50
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people are free to read or take whatever meaning from a work they want to, but the trans shinji stuff always kind of rubbed me the wrong way because it feels like a mix of weird gender essentialism (he cooks and cleans and is mocked for it! uhh...men can do that too tho...) and as said above, picking up on shinjis feelings of alienation and inadequacy and vibing with them as a trans person since those are two identical aspects of these two different situations. i compare it to the trans reading of the matrix, which i think holds a lot more weight even though the wachowskis have straight up said it was not on their conscious minds when making the film. everyone in the matrix (the gender binary) has to take part in it, the red pill being both "getting a case of the genders" and the more literal analogue of how estrogen was an actual red pill in the 90s, the deliberate misnaming by agent smith, there's a lot more meat on the actual bones of the movie whereas a lot of the evangelion stuff is kind of conflating things. people seeing the symptoms shinji has, identifying them as the symptoms they have, and deducing that they must therefore have the same cause when i dont think the text bears that out at all. but as i said, if thats how you relate to it its cool. im glad you enjoy this stuff and are enriched for your connection to the sad person. just the idea that its "canon" makes me bristle. but then again, what even is canon. who cares. evangelion is dead.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:25
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Haha, I was just about to post bringing up the matrix. You've said it better than I would, but I also wish people would worry less about the diagetics of the text exactly matching up with their life. I feel like a ton of analysis lets that kind of stuff get in the way of what the text means and how it resonated with the reader. Neo is not trans, but that doesn't mean the Matrix isn't a meaningful trans narrative. Shinji is not trans, but that doesn't mean his story can't be very resonant with the trans experience.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:44
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Totally. It's why part of me is sympathetic to the reading because like, I get it! I totally do. But readings are not text it's inference based on how it makes you think or feel. Evangelion as a Marxist alienation from capitalism is probably also a reading that can be done. Reading meaning into a piece of work is like that and Eva is great for allowing for lots of them and I'd rather live in a world with everyone having their own reading than mine being the only one. It's why sometimes the authorial reading is kind of boring because yeah it means less chatting about what it means but that doesn't exclude us from also making other readings about the text while knowing the authorial intent.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:52
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Paper Lion posted:people are free to read or take whatever meaning from a work they want to, but the trans shinji stuff always kind of rubbed me the wrong way because it feels like a mix of weird gender essentialism (he cooks and cleans and is mocked for it! uhh...men can do that too tho...) and as said above, picking up on shinjis feelings of alienation and inadequacy and vibing with them as a trans person since those are two identical aspects of these two different situations. i compare it to the trans reading of the matrix, which i think holds a lot more weight even though the wachowskis have straight up said it was not on their conscious minds when making the film. everyone in the matrix (the gender binary) has to take part in it, the red pill being both "getting a case of the genders" and the more literal analogue of how estrogen was an actual red pill in the 90s, the deliberate misnaming by agent smith, there's a lot more meat on the actual bones of the movie whereas a lot of the evangelion stuff is kind of conflating things. people seeing the symptoms shinji has, identifying them as the symptoms they have, and deducing that they must therefore have the same cause when i dont think the text bears that out at all.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:40
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Paper Lion posted:i compare it to the trans reading of the matrix, which i think holds a lot more weight even though the wachowskis have straight up said it was not on their conscious minds when making the film. This article seems to indicate the opposite: https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53692435 Maybe the entire film wasn't consciously meant to be a trans metaphor, but the character of Switch was intended to be a trans person whose self-conception would appear in the virtual world.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:44
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Yeah, some of the reasoning feels pretty weak, Misato is a slob who can't cook and no one interprets that as her being a secretly masculine character, right? On the other hand, I'm rewatching the show and forgot shinji wears asuka's plugsuit and they achieve super high sync rates lol (former is played off as a gag and latter is about him and asuka, not him individually, imo, but I suspect other people have read more into it)
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Aug 26, 2021 18:46
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I think "Shinji is trans" works as a conscious appropriation of the text. There are precious few trans narratives out there, and saying Shinji is trans is a way of saying "this narrative applies to me, too." It's like how, if you're doing a strict reading of the text, there's never actually a scene where Shinji's explicitly shown to be sexually interested in guys. All of the sexual imagery in the show, down to the literal bodily conjoining at the hips with people during instrumentality, is between him and women. But the (barely) subtext of him meeting Kaworu and feeling an intense attachment and longing for him is so representative of how it feels to realize that you're gay, so pretty much anyone who watches Evangelion at least recognizes that Shinji's got a gay crush on Kaworu. And when you read it that way, it's really easy to recontextualize the sexual imagery with women, which was always pretty toxic to begin with, as representing a sort of forced heterosexuality that always made Shinji uncomfortable and self-loathing. In a similar way when I watch Shinji's interactions with people, his embarrassment over plug suits, his pretty femme mannerisms at times, and his self-loathing and dissociation, it really reminds me of being a closeted trans teen who didn't have the language to express that reality. Then there's all the stuff in the TV series where his dad hates him, but he's forced to see Rei, who is explicitly "what if Gendo had a daughter instead of failson Shinji," be praised and doted on. Like would I love it if the final scene of Rebuild showed Shinji with long hair and a skirt popping estrogen pills? Heck yeah, but "Shinji is trans" doesn't need to literally be canon for me to be able to say "Jeez, Shinji sure is trans." Cephas fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 18:55
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Lord Krangdar posted:This article seems to indicate the opposite: i mean, obviously on some sort of level these ideas were kicking around in their heads considering, ya know, theyre trans lol. and the fact that they wanted to have a character literally express a different gender outside of the matrix from how they express inside it is also obviously part of the reading. i was saying that there IS credence to the matrix is trans thing in comparison to the lack of it for NGE, so im confused if this post was confrontational or supportive, i guess haha quick edit about the gendo liking rei and shinji wishing it were him thing: i think that kind of falls somewhat back into gender essentialism? the fact of the matter is that gendo likes her because she does exactly what shes told to, unquestioningly, and puts his needs/the needs of men around her above her own at all times, because she was born and bred to do exactly that. it is, in its own way, a very faithful depiction of how a common patriarchal relationship between fathers and daughters is damaging without ever really having to spell it out. i cant imagine looking at one of the most toxic aspects of a patriarchal society is going to inspire thoughts of "god i wish that were me" no matter how depressed you are. but who knows. its not my experience. though, this is something i bristle against because shinji wants people to accept him but he doesnt want to actually have to ever loving do anything. there are people that will accept you if you sit there, take no responsibility for yourself or others, and just let you be a lovely useless lump forever, but theyre just as toxic as the other kinds of people that you will interact with until you get your poo poo together and do something with yourself and sort out your feelings. citation: kaworu. good friends are the ones in 4.0 that tell you "hey, you cant do anything right now and thats ok and we have patience and space for it, take your time but you gotta get out of it eventually my dude." Paper Lion fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 19:09
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Identifying with Shinji is cool, lots of people had similar issues when they were teenagers (or maybe they continue to have them) so its no wonder that they see themselves reflected in the shinster. Now, identifying with Gendo on the other hand...
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Aug 26, 2021 19:19
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....Does Gendo like Rei? I never got the impression that Gendo likes Rei tbh. He uses her as a surrogate Yui to perform affection towards to make himself feel better, but he's acutely aware that she's not actually Yui and, as such, is almost constitutionally incapable of actually liking her. If he liked her he might show some actual hesitation towards subjecting her to the relentless suffering and death of an Eva pilot, but he never really does. She's always fundamentally disposable to him.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:34
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he likes her in that shes a useful, convenient tool that is dependable and always does what she is told. liking her does not mean recognizing her as a whole person, only liking what she provides. its very typical abuser poo poo, be it from a parent that only "likes" their kid when they bring home straight a report cards and plays piano well at dinner parties, or from a partner that will lovebomb you to get what they want and go ice cold when you try setting a boundary or questioning their motives.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:43
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Paper Lion posted:i mean, obviously on some sort of level these ideas were kicking around in their heads considering, ya know, theyre trans lol. and the fact that they wanted to have a character literally express a different gender outside of the matrix from how they express inside it is also obviously part of the reading. i was saying that there IS credence to the matrix is trans thing in comparison to the lack of it for NGE, so im confused if this post was confrontational or supportive, i guess haha The only thing re: Rei I’d argue is that just because we know Gendo is a poo poo to Rei doesn’t mean Shinji knows he’s a poo poo to Rei at the start of the series. Part of his spiral into depression is realizing that Rei is replaceable and so likely he is too but it’s a disconnect with his father that is never expounded on between them. He realizes that his father can’t respect him and doesn’t even respect Rei enough to care that she’s a clone. I’m not arguing this to bolster the trans Shinji narrative just that I think assuming that Shinji isn’t jealous of Rei early in the series which changes when facts on the ground change might not be fair. Which is why 3.0+1.0 was satisfying to see that resolution and conflict between them discussed. Weird BIAS fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 19:44
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Weird BIAS posted:The only thing re: Rei I’d argue is that just because we know Gendo is a poo poo to Rei doesn’t mean Shinji knows he’s a poo poo to Rei at the start of the series. the first time he meets this girl, shes being wheeled out in a hospital bed covered in bandages and obviously on deaths door from wounds due to driving the robot, and he is told that if he does not do it then she will be forced to do it again. hes acutely aware of their relationship.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:50
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I don't think it's that simple! Shinji is put into a position of not knowing much of what's going on or what caused her injuries and is told those injuries involved his dad saving her. I'm not saying he's not a dick just that Shinji's own perception is clouded at times and assuming he's acutely aware she's replacable to Gendo is not something I would do.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:52
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i feel like the signal to the audience that gendo is a bad dude that will risk a childs life should also be a signal to one of the characters in the show that he will do that as well. but maybe shinji is dumber than a literal 6 year old watching it in a language he doesnt understand. because that was me and i realized gendo was a bad man hurting the blue haired girl when i first watched it. idk.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:54
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With my own abusive people in my life I have been Shinji trying to find anything loving possible to excuse their lovely behaviour. It's kind of a trauma coping mechanism so seeing Shinji see Rei injured, told 'it would have been worse if not for Commander Ikari', starts him trying to figure out what Rei and Gendo see in each other. He spends several episodes wondering what he might be able to respect from his father. And yeah it's obviously on it's face true that EVANGELION ASSUMES THAT CHILDREN SHOULD BE PILOTS AND THAT IS BAD it's loving obvious to the audience and we have to excuse it because it's a in universe rule that 14 year olds drive the humanoid beings and in a sane world Gendo would be in jail. So I don't know what to say that Shinji is not the audience who knows better than to trust him but I get why he would trust his dad enough to even get in the Evangelion in the first place or trust him because Rei shows trust in him. That trust is betrayed and Shinji says as much when Touji is injured as that's the beyond the pale moment for both of them.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:59
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Shinji also sees his father burn his hands and struggle trying to get Rei out of the plug in that one episode (I forget which now, it's been so long since I watched) and has the reaction that his father must care deeply for her since he seems visibly panicked and distraught at the time, which causes Shinji to seek a similar worth in the eyes of his father. In the context of the rest of the series that particular scene seems very odd, but at the time it's understandable to think how a child like Shinji would see that and seek the same care and affection from his father by replicating Rei's actions. We know that Gendo is manipulative but there's no way for Shinji to really know at that point, iirc.
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Aug 26, 2021 20:12
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