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Q7kid posted:I've been following the G1 Climax after a number of years of not being closely engaged with NJPW, so I've been trying to catch up on recent history. I've seen a lot of folks deride Kazuchika Okada's performance during 2020, with specific scorn being directed to his Money Clip submission. Well, first of all it's not like his 2020 was atrocious or anything, it's that it was mostly mediocre. But mostly mediocre is still going to turn heads when it's from the guy who's the company Ace and probably the objectively best wrestler in the world. It was especially weird because Okada had two absolute instant classics at Wrestle Kingdom 14 against Ibushi and Naito and then when New Japan came back from the pandemic break it's like he was just another guy even though everybody knew that he was capable of so much more. The Money Clip thing plays into this because it's a kinda bad-looking hold that was still supposed to be treated like some big deal death move, but it mostly felt like some weird rib on the audience that Okada just stubbornly refused to give the people what they want and instead seemed to deliberately half-rear end it.
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Sep 22, 2021 19:27
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Cerebral Bore posted:when New Japan came back from the pandemic break it's like he was just another guy even though everybody knew that he was capable of so much more. Just for fun I had a look at the all time Cagematch ratings, because as we all know they are most objective rankings of wrestlers. Okada is at number 3 all-time with a 9.70. When the other people in the top 5 are Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, and Manami Toyota then just being another guy is almost inexcusable. Tanahashi is at number six on that list, and he's never just another guy, whenever he's cycling down the card for a spell it's always for a reason and the match quality doesn't suffer. I also completely forgot about the whole KOPW thing last year. Okada got pissy that he didn't have a belt (after losing the trios belts to longtime failbrother Yoshi-Hashi) he created his own championship with it's own defined stipulation, and then proceed to lose the inagural match to his trickster buddy Toru Yano. He has yet to hold the championship that he himself created
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Sep 22, 2021 19:42
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OK, that Okada KoPW pissbaby storyline loving owns
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Sep 22, 2021 19:43
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the best pandemic era Okada match was vs Hiromu Takahashi because the story of the match was the money clip loving sucks and Okada got so pissed off that Hiromu wouldn't tap he rainmakered him three times, Hiromu is dead, and then he locks on the money clip on the unconscious Hiromu to force a ref stoppage. It was so petty.
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Sep 22, 2021 19:46
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SG Bamboo posted:Imo the only time the Money Clip was legitimately good was during Okada's match with Hiromu. Hiromu wouldn't tap, so Okada Rainmakered him twice and locked in the MC so the ref would call the match rather than pin Hiromu, because Okada is a petulant child who wanted to win with his cool new move Lid posted:the best pandemic era Okada match was vs Hiromu Takahashi because the story of the match was the money clip loving sucks and Okada got so pissed off that Hiromu wouldn't tap he rainmakered him three times, Hiromu is dead, and then he locks on the money clip on the unconscious Hiromu to force a ref stoppage. It was so petty.  
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Sep 22, 2021 19:51
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Sorry! If I saw that would've quoted in agreement. The other time the rainmaker looked good was Okada v Shingo in the G1 because Shingo is a living God and he sold it like death. Like this is the biggest thing, the rainmaker is a cobra clutch, a move we all know can look good - look at anytime Austin applied the million dollar dream and shook people. Okada just locks it on and... sits there. It has all the intensity of an abdominal stretch. Except in NJPW I have seen with my own eyes ZSJ get over an abdominal stretch as a finisher so yeah its an Okada problem.
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Sep 22, 2021 20:07
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See, Okada's 2020 being the pissbaby run makes me think it was good, but not enough to watch New Japan again.
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Sep 22, 2021 21:24
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Who would you say are among the best sellers in wrestling (currently active or otherwise)? Also, was there ever a documented situation where someone was so good at selling or making their opponents look good that their own push never really materialized?
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Sep 22, 2021 21:34
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Destroy My Sweater posted:Who would you say are among the best sellers in wrestling (currently active or otherwise)? Dolph Ziggler sold like a maniac for years and got poo poo other than his one whc win on raw that was sawed off at the knees when del Rio concussed him a couple weeks later. But I think rumors were he was not long for a decent run anyway.
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Sep 22, 2021 21:37
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Also Okada also already had the Red Ink so I don't know why they felt the need to try and get over a third finishing move.
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Sep 22, 2021 21:37
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Miro is a pretty incredible seller. Dude doesn't even sell like he's hurt, he sells like his invincibility cheat code stopped working and he's very annoyed about it
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Sep 22, 2021 21:47
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Q7kid posted:I've been following the G1 Climax after a number of years of not being closely engaged with NJPW, so I've been trying to catch up on recent history. I've seen a lot of folks deride Kazuchika Okada's performance during 2020, with specific scorn being directed to his Money Clip submission. 1) partly it's because the expectation for Okada almost from day 1 of his return from excursion is "one of the top wrestlers on the planet". Hell, his start to 2020 was loving great, bangers at Wrestle Kingdom with Ibushi & Naito and then a great match at New Beginning with Taichi. Then the pandemic hits and we go away until June. Comeback & we get his NJ Cup with Gedo, which was torturous. And then Yujiro feud which was unbelievably bad. In the G1 he had a Yuj Match which was mediocre & disappointments with Taichi & Cobb. He feeds off the crowd & the crowd is dead 2) the big problem with the Money Clip is it's not the Rain Maker. The other problem is that there's only about 2 people on the roster who seem to sell it well.
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Sep 22, 2021 23:27
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Destroy My Sweater posted:Who would you say are among the best sellers in wrestling (currently active or otherwise)? Ishii is the best and it's not even close.
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Sep 22, 2021 23:29
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Sami Zayn
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Sep 22, 2021 23:33
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MJF is surprisingly good at selling
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Sep 22, 2021 23:42
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Cerebral Bore posted:Ishii is the best and it's not even close. It's this. Ishii is the best at selling since Toshiaki Kawada
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Sep 23, 2021 02:45
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Danielson is also very good at selling. algebra testes posted:Also Okada also already had the Red Ink so I don't know why they felt the need to try and get over a third finishing move. This is the really baffling part. The Red Ink is a really cool hold (it's basically the Regal Stretch/Gargano Escape) and I don't know why he dropped it. I also really like the Heavy Rain too.
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Sep 23, 2021 02:45
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Gaz-L posted:Danielson is also very good at selling. Yeah, I remember complaining when he started his singles run in WWE that he was hurting his own chances because he was making his opponents look so much better than they could make him look. SG Bamboo posted:It's this. Ishii is the best at selling since Toshiaki Kawada But this is true.
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Sep 23, 2021 12:09
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Tanahashi’s selling is also incredible, right up there with Ishii but Ishii’s is such a unique style of selling that it stands out so much
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Sep 23, 2021 12:51
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Ishii has some kind of sixth sense of not just when to sell but also when not to sell and also also when to sell after no-selling.
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Sep 23, 2021 12:56
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Mandatory Bret Hart mention for "best seller." Bret was so good at selling the little things that for a long time I didn't like his matches much because the limb/joint selling made them seem real instead of cornball superhero stuff. Not that it matters now, probably, but I like how Keith Lee sells. Does a really good "I am momentarily confused where I am after a strike to the head"
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Sep 23, 2021 14:40
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Kenny sold some brain confusion from blows to the head in a way that made me laugh last night
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Sep 23, 2021 14:45
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D.N. Nation posted:Mandatory Bret Hart mention for "best seller." Bret was so good at selling the little things that for a long time I didn't like his matches much because the limb/joint selling made them seem real instead of cornball superhero stuff. Beyond his physical selling I loved how invested Bret was in his matches. How he'd get upset when he lost or take a moment to register "okay, that happened" when someone outmaneuvered him. That point at Owen at WMX when Owen was just rubbing his foot into Bret's face was such a perfect conveyance of "you little poo poo".
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Sep 23, 2021 17:45
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Renaissance Spam posted:Beyond his physical selling I loved how invested Bret was in his matches. How he'd get upset when he lost or take a moment to register "okay, that happened" when someone outmaneuvered him. That point at Owen at WMX when Owen was just rubbing his foot into Bret's face was such a perfect conveyance of "you little poo poo". My favorite is when he got flash pinned by DiBiase at survivor series. Just sits up immediately and says "gently caress!"
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Sep 23, 2021 18:26
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Has there ever been like, a team based gauntlet match? Not sure what you'd call it, but basically like a King of Fighters video game. Two guys start, one guy wins and another member from the loser's team comes out to fight the winner, until all of one team is eliminated. Like a Survivor Series but without tags, you just replace guys as they lose in 1 on 1 contests. Has this happened in any kind of high profile federation?
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Sep 23, 2021 18:27
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Destroy My Sweater posted:Who would you say are among the best sellers in wrestling (currently active or otherwise)? Possibly not "the best" but Orange Cassidy is a very underrated seller. quote:Also, was there ever a documented situation where someone was so good at selling or making their opponents look good that their own push never really materialized? Supposedly when Mick Foley started working for Continental in Memphis he got in trouble because he was selling too much for lower-card good guys like Surfer Ray Odyssey. (of course, then he was wrestling against Jeff Jarrett, and the instruction was to absolutely sell his rear end off)
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Sep 23, 2021 18:40
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Critical posted:My favorite is when he got flash pinned by DiBiase at survivor series. Just sits up immediately and says "gently caress!" I liked when Diesel did that when he lost the WWF title to Bret. Leva Bates will sometimes do the opposite when she wins. She'll double check with the ref, then get excited. It's little things like that that make the wrestlers seem more human and real.
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Sep 23, 2021 18:41
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It was a cool little moment when Cesaro came to after losing to Roman at Backlash and acted like he didn't realize he had passed out and the match was still going on. Then Seth beat him up and down the card ya go
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Sep 23, 2021 18:53
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What was the undercard like during Hogan's run in WCW before the NWO? All I really remember from that time is the endless DDP/Johnny B. Badd feud and Hacksaw Jim Duggan's stupid taped fist gimmick.
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Sep 23, 2021 18:56
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Lamuella posted:Possibly not "the best" but Orange Cassidy is a very underrated seller. Orange and Kingston are top-tier in the company, I think. I'd put Shida up there too because three pretty green wrestlers got jobs as a direct result of her making them look great.
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Sep 23, 2021 19:02
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Which of the "AEW Four" will be the first to win the World title: Jungle Boy, MJF, Darby Allin or Sammy Guevara?
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Sep 23, 2021 20:39
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Kosmo Gallion posted:Which of the "AEW Four" will be the first to win the World title: Jungle Boy, MJF, Darby Allin or Sammy Guevara? If there wasn't already a bastard heel at the top of the card I'd say MJF but its probably going to be Jungle Boy.
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Sep 23, 2021 20:40
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MJF is the most “ready” at the moment, then Darby, Sammy, then JB. This is based mostly on promo ability against in-ring (and all of them are really good!). But MJF could win the belt tomorrow and I’d say it works.
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Sep 23, 2021 20:48
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D.N. Nation posted:Mandatory Bret Hart mention for "best seller." Bret was so good at selling the little things that for a long time I didn't like his matches much because the limb/joint selling made them seem real instead of cornball superhero stuff. His sell of getting irish-whipped into the turnbuckle while facing forward makes it look like he loving DIED every time. I still don't think anyone has sold that better.
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Sep 23, 2021 21:17
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Re: selling… Are we just going to ignore Shawn’s sell job in the Hogan match?
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Sep 23, 2021 22:27
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It wasn't him getting hit by a move, but I always appreciated Shawn selling Undertaker's kickout of the Superkick/Pedigree like Jesus had returned to call him out on all his poo poo
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Sep 24, 2021 01:40
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bartok posted:What was the undercard like during Hogan's run in WCW before the NWO? All I really remember from that time is the endless DDP/Johnny B. Badd feud and Hacksaw Jim Duggan's stupid taped fist gimmick. 1995 had the US title tournament, which featured Sting and an undefeated Meng in the championship. At the same time, they were working an undefeated rookie phenom gimmick for Alex Wright. Mid-1995 saw the debut of the Renegade and his monster push, which came to an end by early fall. The end of 1995 saw the feud between Harlem Heat and the Stud Stable, culminating in Sherri Martel falling for Colonel Parker. 1995 also had the lovely Paul Orndorff losing his confidence angle, the self help weirdo and Mr. Wonderful reemerging. The Dungeon of Doom was doing its thing, scraping the top of the card on occasion. Late 1995 had the ridiculous New Japan-led-by-Sonny Onoo thing, where they "bought" a certain amount of WCW Pro to use New Japan talent. Starrcade had the best of 7 series between the two, which had some good matches and horrible mismatches.
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Sep 24, 2021 02:33
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Hellblazer187 posted:Has there ever been like, a team based gauntlet match? Not sure what you'd call it, but basically like a King of Fighters video game. Two guys start, one guy wins and another member from the loser's team comes out to fight the winner, until all of one team is eliminated. Like a Survivor Series but without tags, you just replace guys as they lose in 1 on 1 contests. Has this happened in any kind of high profile federation? I think you described a Lucha Cibernetico just without the tags: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torneo_cibernetico
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Sep 24, 2021 02:52
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Hellblazer187 posted:Has there ever been like, a team based gauntlet match? Not sure what you'd call it, but basically like a King of Fighters video game. Two guys start, one guy wins and another member from the loser's team comes out to fight the winner, until all of one team is eliminated. Like a Survivor Series but without tags, you just replace guys as they lose in 1 on 1 contests. Has this happened in any kind of high profile federation? Stardom did this for a Queens Quest vs Oedo Tai match with the last person eliminated having to leave the faction.
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Sep 24, 2021 06:06
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When a wrestler from a Japanese promotion does a "Produce Show", such as Chris Brookes' DDT shows or the "Diamonds" Shows that Kongoh produce for Noah, what's involved? I'm thinking in terms of booking, finances, finishes etc.
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Sep 24, 2021 17:07
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