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Vic posted:It's only for the dumb achievement. DXHR doesn't penalize you for killing peeps. The game also dumps noticeably more XP on you for playing non-lethally.
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Oct 8, 2021 09:18
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Vic posted:It's only for the dumb achievement. DXHR doesn't penalize you for killing peeps. Didn't HR give you more XP for stealthy and non lethal methods? Bc that's not even a subtle incentive. Or am I just misremembering? E:f;b
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Oct 8, 2021 09:18
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Rockman Reserve posted:I rant about this all the time because it’s insanely stupid but the end for HR counted deaths in the intro level - you know, when Adam is more or less completely human, and his office is literally under siege by heavily armed terrorists, and the terrorists have kidnapped his girlfriend, and his job is to work security and secure the building with a big loving gun. At the end of the intro level they put you in a coma, they’re not loving around. Having those terrorist goons count against the “oh my god I’ve become an inhuman killing machine” morality counter makes absolutely no sense on any level. Yeah, I'm a little confused... Granted it's been a while since I played DE:HR but I'm pretty sure there is no "morality counter" in that game, nor does lethal/non-lethal affect the ending in any way, so if you've been ranting about it from that standpoint then you might've been getting some strange looks.  I do remember losing out on the Pacifist achievement because of the intro in my playthrough which was kind of a bummer to find out at the end but yeah, mechanically it gives you a bit more EXP but aiming for 100% non-lethality is purely for the challenge and achievement in that game.
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Oct 8, 2021 09:24
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John Murdoch posted:The game also dumps noticeably more XP on you for playing non-lethally. If by "dump" you mean +20 extra xp per nonlethal takedown. For reference there are 238,470 XP points in a single playthrough. You can just blaze through the game when all you do is dome people anyway. If you go stealth but lethal, you get all the ghost and smooth operator bonuses. I recommend actually trying a robocop playthrough. It's funny as hell.
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Oct 8, 2021 10:09
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packetmantis posted:A lot of people think that if a certain playstyle has an achievement attached, playing the game in any other way is wrong. in a sense gamers real boss monster, is themselves
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Oct 8, 2021 10:35
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If there is ANYTHING in the game that provides the player with a perceived advantage, whether real or imagined, people will do that one thing over and over then complain they're forced to play that way. I imagine this frequently drives game developers insane.
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Oct 8, 2021 10:44
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exquisite tea posted:If there is ANYTHING in the game that provides the player with a perceived advantage, whether real or imagined, people will do that one thing over and over then complain they're forced to play that way. I imagine this frequently drives game developers insane. It really is as simple as simply not incentivizing things poorly. Don't have an achievement that requires a game-long effort if you don't have another that offsets it as otherwise people will heavily, heavily gravitate to the playstyle they are "encouraged" to do. If a lethal or a non-lethal takedown gave the same XP, there is no weight to either one so you won't get any complaining about how they approach things, but a portion of players still won't leave a level until they absolutely murder everyone for the perceived XP advantage. Deus Ex (and games of its ilk) could easily solve their problems if everything grants you XP, but the mission as a whole grants you a static amount. Beating it with all the little sub objectives doesn't give you more, it just gives them to you earlier so a player who explores and does special takedowns etc. just has access to the XP the mission grants earlier, but won't be any stronger long-term than someone who just does the objectives and finishes the map.
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Oct 8, 2021 10:52
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How many people do you have to scare by walking towards too aggressively to get the High Chaos ending for Dishonored? Because from the way people talk about the game, hitting anyone once with a sword ruins the entire playthrough and brings 1,000 years of darkness and Dracula eats every human on the planet.
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Oct 8, 2021 10:59
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RareAcumen posted:How many people do you have to scare by walking towards too aggressively to get the High Chaos ending for Dishonored? Because from the way people talk about the game, hitting anyone once with a sword ruins the entire playthrough and brings 1,000 years of darkness and Dracula eats every human on the planet. It's 50%. You have to kill 50 loving percent of the human population for that ending. Gamers are loving insane.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:02
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I think it was probably a bad idea to attach a morality system to Dishonored in the first place, it doesn't add a whole lot and feels limiting even if it isn't in reality. But morality was very en vogue in the early 2010s.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:06
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Barudak posted:It really is as simple as simply not incentivizing things poorly. Deus Ex is a stealth puzzle game. If you ignore the puzzle and choose to go in guns blazing, you can. You are incentivized to do the riskier/harder/time consuming thing. It is there so that players engage with all the little things they put in. Brokebrained XP maximizers would hump the wall in tutorial for two hours if it gave them XP advantage. That's not on devs.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:11
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The green bits of Samus' suit light up in dark rooms in Metroid Dread 
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Oct 8, 2021 11:17
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Being stealthy is fun and satisfying. Like Hitman, it's all the more fun to leave a corpse when no one has any idea how it got there.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:28
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RareAcumen posted:How many people do you have to scare by walking towards too aggressively to get the High Chaos ending for Dishonored? Because from the way people talk about the game, hitting anyone once with a sword ruins the entire playthrough and brings 1,000 years of darkness and Dracula eats every human on the planet. I had the same idea when I started playing Dishonored 1 this year, but it was amazing pinballing between Low and High chaos two times. I guess lots of people made the mistake of going for the Clean Hands achievement (don't kill anyone) on their first playthrough. And the game has such wonderful stealth kill animations too! Mierenneuker has a new favorite as of 12:07 on Oct 8, 2021 |
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Oct 8, 2021 11:31
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You have way more options for killing in Dishonored and can have a surprising amount of dead bodies and still have the low chaos ending. The clean hands achievement and inability to see how little an individual kill pushes up your Chaos Meter kind of ruins this because it made players think "it is bad to use all these badass powers". Like the single biggest innovation Arkane made for Deathloop was making it so you didn't feel like you did something wrong to bang-bang your way through a stealth-gone-loud rather than just reload. Vic posted:Deus Ex is a stealth puzzle game. If you ignore the puzzle and choose to go in guns blazing, you can. You are incentivized to do the riskier/harder/time consuming thing. Ostensibly, its an immersive sim where you can do anything to approach the situation. Unfortunately, for Human Revolution, its tuned so that stealth and non-lethal takedowns are easier and more powerful than playing lethally. The harder/riskier thing is actually, like, shooting people in the face and alerting guards which grants less XP. Hell, for no reason whatsoever the lethal takedown causes noise while the non-lethal one doesn't and gives you more XP.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:52
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Barudak posted:Like the single biggest innovation Arkane made for Deathloop was making it so you didn't feel like you did something wrong to bang-bang your way through a stealth-gone-loud rather than just reload. For all its faults and issues, Cyberpunk 2077 did a really great job with this too. The game was very good about making you being spotted feel less like "ugh reload God damnit" and more like "lmao alright let's do this mother fuckers". The sound track and tools at your disposal had a lot to do with that; if I got made, I could turn into a blender of violence with super speed and poo poo to an intense thumping track that just explodes in.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:58
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If you'd made the lethal takedowns in HR silent and non lethal audible you'd have solved half the complaints with the game.
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Oct 8, 2021 12:00
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:It's 50%. You have to kill 50 loving percent of the human population for that ending. Gamers are loving insane. I see the world just wasn't ready for a Thanos simulator game then. Sounds like you should've had the traditionally non-lethal weapon for many games of 'unarmed' They can be dead or unconscious and that's fine, you don't know, it depends on the game!
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Oct 8, 2021 12:21
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:It's 50%. You have to kill 50 loving percent of the human population for that ending. Gamers are loving insane. You can't really blame this on the gamers since it's not like they told you the limits, only that killing leads to a darker ending. And you could only check your chaos at the end of levels. It's just a badly designed and presented system.
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Oct 8, 2021 12:52
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Joey Freshwater posted:I rarely go loud in the game if I can help it but I love the Rapier because I found one that has exploding bullets so you only have to be sort of accurate across long distances to kill someone. You're also far enough away that they hear the explosion but not the gun shot so they go investigate and BOOM dead. It's only a one shot reload so I threw a purple reload trinket on there and it just smokes dudes. I should try that next time. If you've never tackled Condition Detachment with Havoc/Nexus and Charlie's purple Strelak (ideally with expanded mag, fast reload, and penetrator), go for it. It's loving hilarious to walk through the whole thing like the Terminator tearing into people with a fully-automatic shotgun. Kitfox88 posted:I did non-lethal till I hit the Belltower dudes at the FEMA camp, then the blades came out. There should be an achievement for not leaving any Belltower alive.
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Oct 8, 2021 12:52
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After that Belltower was open season.
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I really liked in Watchdogs 2 that the baton which a lot of players thought was non-lethal since you clonked people on the head with it at close range and this is a video game accurately counted as murder.
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Oct 8, 2021 12:53
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In Dishonored people keep leaving about the one thing that probably influenced more people to restart the game and go stealthy than anything else: The warning that pops up at the end of the first level. When I first played it I killed everybody in the prison level because I'm an assassin and these are all the people who framed me for the murder of the empress. However once I finished the level there was a pop-up like the Ghost of Christmas future telling me that if I continue down this path things are going to get real bad. That said to me that going full lethal was the "wrong" way to play so I restarted and tried to stay non-lethal. Unfortunately the game doesn't really give you any tools to stay non-lethal once you're spotted so you can either run away until all agro disappears or just reload. And the latter is easier, so that's what most people do.
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Oct 8, 2021 12:55
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Hel posted:You can't really blame this on the gamers issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding gamers. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"
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Oct 8, 2021 12:55
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding gamers. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them" Not a defence of gamers.
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Oct 8, 2021 12:59
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Hel posted:This is a problem of Arkane's own making. If they get credit for "solving" it then they should also get the correct blame for causing it. It was a "joke"
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Oct 8, 2021 13:09
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I think a big part of why Deathloop got it right over Dishonored is that they establish very early on that death is ultimately meaningless until you actually break the loop. If you aren't killing them, then they'll probably kill each other because... hey, you just wake up like nothing happened. Also, really satisfying kick mechanics and you get to punt people off of cliffs so frequently!
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Oct 8, 2021 13:09
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Barudak posted:Ostensibly, its an immersive sim where you can do anything to approach the situation. Unfortunately, for Human Revolution, its tuned so that stealth and non-lethal takedowns are easier and more powerful than playing lethally. The harder/riskier thing is actually, like, shooting people in the face and alerting guards which grants less XP. Hell, for no reason whatsoever the lethal takedown causes noise while the non-lethal one doesn't and gives you more XP. No, the game's ostensibly about stealth. The game's content is all stealth related. The less XP is the game obviously telling you what it expects you to do. If you'll disabuse yourself of the notion that shooting and stealth should be equally rewarded in general, and are supposed to be in DXHR in particular, you'll find that just plowing through a stealth game for your new game+ is super fun. Shooting people is fast, easy and doesn't require any praxis. Have you ever used any of the mine templates? Have you used the heavy weapons? Not when you went for that ghost XP bonus. The fun of shooting the guns, throwing nades and plowing through high tech defences is the reward for going in guns blazing. You can upgrade health/armor and just typhoon the poo poo out of everyone pretty much immediately. Again XP broke people's brains because they make it into the point of the game as both power level, high score and good boy brownie points. I don't need XP when I have bullets to shoot and vending machines to yeet.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:18
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Vic posted:No, the game's ostensibly about stealth. The game's content is all stealth related. The less XP is the game obviously telling you what it expects you to do. This post is bizarre, "the game's content is all stealth related, here is a pile of non-stealth related content in the game". Hell the game shipped with mandatory boss fights so saying "stealth is how the game is meant to be played" is on its face wrong since you are unable to stealth the bosses* in the way it was released. What the game is telling is not that it is a stealth game, it is telling you that you have multiple choices on how to approach the problem and then slapping your hand for making the ones it doesn't like. If the game simply didn't have the option for all the bang-bang shooty, rather than having a lot of arbitrarily mechanically inferior bang-bang shooty options, you'd have less issues. *Yes, there is one boss who by exploiting some game bits that are unintentional lets you do a takedown on them.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:25
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Barudak posted:This post is bizarre, "the game's content is all stealth related, here is a pile of non-stealth related content in the game". Hell the game shipped with mandatory boss fights so saying "stealth is how the game is meant to be played" is on its face wrong since you are unable to stealth the bosses* in the way it was released. Nuh uh your post is bizzare, nerd.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:28
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I mean the boss fights were farmed out to a different dev and only can't be stealthed because a different company made the fights. The fights are also universally terrible, and it would be better if you could stealth them so you wouldn't have to engage with them.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:29
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Something I really liked in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided was the optional detail (I don't think theres a quest tied to it, my memory is hazy) that explains the entire backstory for Jensen and how he switched jobs/got out of antartica/nobody knows him that you can find by snooping around hard enough. Would have liked if the second half of the game got made so we could explore that, but still, its probably my favorite bit of Immersive Simming in the genre.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:30
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Achievements are bad and have done a lot to hurt games in general imo.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:31
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:For all its faults and issues, Cyberpunk 2077 did a really great job with this too. The game was very good about making you being spotted feel less like "ugh reload God damnit" and more like "lmao alright let's do this mother fuckers". The sound track and tools at your disposal had a lot to do with that; if I got made, I could turn into a blender of violence with super speed and poo poo to an intense thumping track that just explodes in. Yeah, it was super fun sneaking around quietly snapping necks until poo poo went loud then popping berserk and beating guys to death with GORILLA ARMS 
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Oct 8, 2021 13:33
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:There is so much good dialogue in Deathloop. Colt and Julianna's banter is one of the best things about the game. Oh 100%. I don’t think I’ve heard any repeats when starting a new map either. Although after (storyline spoiler) you find out Julianna is Colt’s daughter, there’s still some flirty dialogue, so I’m guessing it’s at least somewhat randomized
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Oct 8, 2021 13:41
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Barudak posted:I really liked in Watchdogs 2 that the baton which a lot of players thought was non-lethal since you clonked people on the head with it at close range and this is a video game accurately counted as murder. You mean the gnarly bicycle lock and chain thing Marcus clobbers people with? Brutal as hell.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:50
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Joey Freshwater posted:Oh 100%. I don’t think I’ve heard any repeats when starting a new map either. Although after (storyline spoiler) you find out Julianna is Colt’s daughter, there’s still some flirty dialogue, so I’m guessing it’s at least somewhat randomized I think there's a general "Starting a map" pool and more context-aware pools for individual Visonaries killed in the prior time segment or story progress.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:53
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I think there's a general "Starting a map" pool and more context-aware pools for individual Visonaries killed in the prior time segment or story progress. Yeah that sounds right. The Visonaries pool is good too, she'll comment if you kill certain ones (or maybe all of them, idk) several times.
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Oct 8, 2021 14:03
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Vic posted:It's only for the dumb achievement. DXHR doesn't penalize you for killing peeps. Kanfy posted:Yeah, I'm a little confused... Granted it's been a while since I played DE:HR but I'm pretty sure there is no "morality counter" in that game, nor does lethal/non-lethal affect the ending in any way, so if you've been ranting about it from that standpoint then you might've been getting some strange looks. it absolutely does chastise you in whatever Dumb Button Ending you choose if you killed anyone, sorry about your bad memories guys
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Oct 8, 2021 15:34
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I'm genuinely impressed with how well the stealth/horror sequences in Metroid Dread are implemented. There are sections of the game world that are patrolled by EMMIs, which are essentially giant creepy wallcrawling Terminators that can instakill you if they catch you. They've got very well-defined sight and sound radiuses (already a plus for stealth, great to know what you're up against), but since they travel in ways you can't and are really tenacious, you always feel like you're on the back foot against them. I just think it's really neat how it interacts with the usual Metroid formula. Rather than being able to patiently feel out a room, those sequences instead force you to get really good at reading a room really fast, to quickly identify points of interest and ways you could lose your pursuer. I didn't expect stealth and horror to get nailed so well in non-scripted sidescrolling stuff, it's great!
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Oct 8, 2021 16:55
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Rockman Reserve posted:it absolutely does chastise you in whatever Dumb Button Ending you choose if you killed anyone, sorry about your bad memories guys Jensen posted:Violent – How often in my desire to reach a goal did I put my needs first, ignoring others or causing senseless pain, simply because something stood in my way? Didn't I often act coldly, becoming a destructive force that lost touch with my humanity along the way? I got what I wanted, sure, but at what cost to others around me? That's what Taggart is worried about. He's not afraid of freedom. He's afraid of the chaos that erupts when individuals have nothing but a weak grasp on morality to constrain them. You killed a lot of virtual people so Jensen reflects on himself with one paragraph. That's what constitutes a penalty in your brain. Gamers.
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Oct 8, 2021 16:58
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