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Plate armour exhausting the wearer easily is a myth. The show version is actually better. Bronn glances him in joints and finishes by stabbing through a joint. He just tosses the corpse out the moon door as a final "gently caress you." Modern soldiers carry heavier kit than a knight. It's the same concept though, in that might be difficult to keep going if you're a rando, but if you're athletic and used to working in it, it's not going to cripple you. Jorah also tells a myth about longswords being designed to pierce plate, but the actual fight works. I'd totally watch a version of the early seasons that focused real hard on reality, and had knights bashing eachother with mauls and grappling and poo poo. Also fly in a bunch of extras from Central Asia who still train in horse archery to do crazy stunts as dothraki. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 16:15
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Modern soldiers carry heavier kit than a knight. It's the same concept though, in that might be difficult to keep going if you're a rando, but if you're athletic and used to working in it, it's not going to cripple you. Im pretty ignorant about that stuff but it seems to me very unlikely that modern armor weights more than full plate medieval armor edit: not that Im doubting, I just cant see it
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Nov 11, 2021 16:24
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Plate armour exhausting the wearer easily is a myth. The show version is actually better. Bronn glances him in joints and finishes by stabbing through a joint. He just tosses the corpse out the moon door as a final "gently caress you." It's not even a gently caress you, Bronn glances at Lysa, she could have stopped the duel right there, she chooses not to.
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Nov 11, 2021 16:28
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iirc in the book in her confession to littlefinger before she gets moondoored herself she says something about Vardis proposing multiple times that he should marry her in order to fend of the suitors, something she took offense to and part of why she was ambivalent about his death.
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Nov 11, 2021 16:31
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im pretty ignorant about that stuff but it seems to me very unlikely that modern armor weights more than full plate medieval armor And yet it is true. It's not just an armor to armor comparison though, that infantry kit includes all the ammo and gear strapped to the front and back of that infantryman. The point is real chain and plate mail isn't all that exhausting if it's properly fitted and you have the fitness level of someone who campaigns for a living. Bronn's strategy was horseshit and he would have lost that fight in real life, and he certainly would have lost the trial given that the whole concept involves an honorable contest where the gods will intervene to drat the guilty party. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 16:32
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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In the book, the moon door is a vertical door, right? Not the weird well we see in the show.
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Nov 11, 2021 16:33
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PittTheElder posted:Bronn's strategy was horseshit and he would have lost that fight in real life. I think he exhausted the guy because he was old and out of practice, not primarily because he was wearing armor. I'm also a bit dubious about the "plate armor is not heavy and clunky" claims, I think people are overcorrecting from the "knight installed on his horse with a crane" narrative by imagining that doing extensive athletics routines with full plate is easy. I imagine it's similar to wearing something like fireman gear or modern body armor - it is heavy and clunky, just not to the point of immobilizing the wearer. E: also the seven gods don't exist in the setting, or at least they don't actually intervene. For other gods it's less clear.
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Nov 11, 2021 16:36
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc and all of these videos and their relatives are modern SCA type nerds, not dudes trained since childhood to do exactly one thing.
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Nov 11, 2021 16:43
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PittTheElder posted:And yet it is true. It's not just an armor to armor comparison though, that infantry kit includes all the ammo and gear strapped to the front and back of that infantryman. Alright. But still, swinging a sword (or a big axe, or a lance) seems to me like more a physically demanding (and tiring) work to do while wearing heavy armor than firing a rifle
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Nov 11, 2021 16:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc It's certainly possible to do athletics or acrobatics while wearing heavy, impractical gear, as demonstrated by this firefighter: https://youtu.be/W3lzPyYgznU Or these peking opera acrobats: https://youtu.be/X1nkiGVafwI But it's a bit much to claim it won't be more exhausting than doing the same thing without the gear.
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Nov 11, 2021 16:58
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pidan posted:I think he exhausted the guy because he was old and out of practice, not primarily because he was wearing armor. This could well be, I haven't read the books in years. quote:I'm also a bit dubious about the "plate armor is not heavy and clunky" claims, I think people are overcorrecting from the "knight installed on his horse with a crane" narrative by imagining that doing extensive athletics routines with full plate is easy. I imagine it's similar to wearing something like fireman gear or modern body armor - it is heavy and clunky, just not to the point of immobilizing the wearer. Yeah, I mean it is heavy, though all of that weight is closely strapped to your body which is actually quite an advantage over bulky packs. Like I don't want to say that it's easy, but somebody who does this for a living isn't going to get tired out in a few minutes either. If anybody wants to see feats of strength in plate, this is the classic video: https://youtu.be/q-bnM5SuQkI And remember that that is a modern hobbyist (in his mid 30s), not a knight who would have done this full time. quote:E: also the seven gods don't exist in the setting, or at least they don't actually intervene. For other gods it's less clear. Right but the point of the whole point is that the characters believe that they exist and take an active role, otherwise the idea of trial by combat makes very little sense.
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Nov 11, 2021 17:00
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Elias_Maluco posted:Alright. But still, swinging a sword (or a big axe, or a lance) seems to me like more a physically demanding (and tiring) work to do while wearing heavy armor than firing a rifle Oh definitely, assault rifles in particular are trivially easy to shoot, it requires basically no effort other than holding 10 lbs up to your shoulder. But anybody fighting a guy in plate armor is also going to have to be working with a similar weapon, or else the armored man just stabs him and that's that. E: although I should add, something like a Longsword is not nearly as heavy as you'd think, they're like 4 lbs, and a decent one is balanced to the point that it's also very easy to move. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 17:04
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PittTheElder posted:If anybody wants to see feats of strength in plate, this is the classic video: https://youtu.be/q-bnM5SuQkI Neat, thanks for this! quote:Right but the point of the whole point is that the characters believe that they exist and take an active role, otherwise the idea of trial by combat makes very little sense. Yeah, I think I misunderstood you. You're saying he'd have lost the trial because he was fighting dishonorably - but I don't agree with that either, basically all the trials by combat we see are fought dishonorably, especially by Oberyn, and no-one complains.
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Nov 11, 2021 17:20
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PittTheElder posted:Oh definitely, assault rifles in particular are trivially easy to shoot, it requires basically no effort other than holding 10 lbs up to your shoulder. Also the guy who's not wearing plate armor is going to have to move a whole lot, because being in the same place as the pointy bits is a bit of a problem.
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Nov 11, 2021 17:59
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also fly in a bunch of extras from Central Asia who still train in horse archery to do crazy stunts as dothraki. If you like this stuff, I suggest the Hungarian movie/documentary "The Horsearcher", "A Lovásíjász", about a Hungarian guy who tries to keep the tradition alive, and runs a school /training camp for it. Don't know where exactly you can watch it. I got the DVD from a Hungarian friend.
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Nov 11, 2021 18:00
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im pretty ignorant about that stuff but it seems to me very unlikely that modern armor weights more than full plate medieval armor It's about the same actually. Full battle rattle (in the Army and Marines at least) usually comes out to about 50-60 lbs. That's your vest (with plates), helmet, rifle, couple of full mags, knee or elbow pads, etc. A suit of metal armor that is well fit plus a well made sword comes out to about the same weight. Thing is, kit in the modern military starts to the run the tab up pretty quick. If you're the guy carrying a a SAW or other large weaponry, add 20 lbs. Any kind of specialized equipment like all the stuff you need to collect biometric data at a checkpoint, add 20 lbs. Comms equipment, add 20 lbs. That's not counting carrying basic stuff like water, e-tool, gas mask, etc in your pack. When I was in 3rd ACR it was expected that each person would be carrying 40-60 lbs of stuff on top of whatever their armor weighed. Like others have said, the thing is you get used to manuevering while carrying all that weight pretty quickly though lots and lots of training, so while you're probably not going to win any footraces in most cases you have the stamina to fight and move fairly well over an extended period of time.
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Nov 11, 2021 19:13
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the weight of a soldier's kit is pretty consistent across time and space. humans can carry what humans can carry, that hasn't changed much at all. i guess mechanization has let modern infantry get away with a slightly heavier load in comparison but that's about it.
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Nov 11, 2021 19:23
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Jazerus posted:the weight of a soldier's kit is pretty consistent across time and space. humans can carry what humans can carry, that hasn't changed much at all. i guess mechanization has let modern infantry get away with a slightly heavier load in comparison but that's about it. p much this
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Nov 11, 2021 19:30
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Jazerus posted:the weight of a soldier's kit is pretty consistent across time and space. humans can carry what humans can carry, that hasn't changed much at all. i guess mechanization has let modern infantry get away with a slightly heavier load in comparison but that's about it. This honestly was something I was surprised to learn. Half expected modern soldiers to be able to carry way more stuff, if only because modern logistics means it's much easier to supply them with many more regular calories.
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Nov 11, 2021 19:41
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PittTheElder posted:This honestly was something I was surprised to learn. Half expected modern soldiers to be able to carry way more stuff, if only because modern logistics means it's much easier to supply them with many more regular calories. Soldiers have always been the absolute last people on the list who go hungry. It only really happens if they’re trapped in one place for too long which is just as true today as it was in antiquity. But if they’re moving they’re gonna “find” their food. Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 19:43
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PittTheElder posted:This honestly was something I was surprised to learn. Half expected modern soldiers to be able to carry way more stuff, if only because modern logistics means it's much easier to supply them with many more regular calories. well in a lot of cases you aren't wrong. modern soldiers carry a kit of equivalent weight to pre-modern heavy infantry, but a lot of people who fought in wars were not heavy infantry. skirmishers and the like were loaded lighter. i should have written that the maximum weight is pretty consistent across time and space
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Nov 11, 2021 19:50
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Jazerus posted:well in a lot of cases you aren't wrong. modern soldiers carry a kit of equivalent weight to pre-modern heavy infantry, but a lot of people who fought in wars were not heavy infantry. skirmishers and the like were loaded lighter. i should have written that the maximum weight is pretty consistent across time and space I mean, it's not like you'll get in trouble for having too much armor - if you're all kitted out and still have 10lb free carrying capacity, just add a shield to hold up in case of projectiles.
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Nov 11, 2021 20:12
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Interesting article here. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14204717 You always hear "Oh medieval plate armour was less tiring than a WW1 soldeir carrying a big backpack of the same weight around, because it's weight was distributed around the body". These tests found different. Armour away from the centre of mass, especially on swinging extremities like the legs were way more tiring.
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Nov 11, 2021 20:30
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Soldiers have always been the absolute last people on the list who go hungry. It only really happens if they’re trapped in one place for too long which is just as true today as it was in antiquity. But if they’re moving they’re gonna “find” their food. There's also the darkly comedic option, where soldiers find themselves in the employ of states unable or unwilling to feed/pay them. Darkly comedic, because those states often find out the hard way that an unpaid army works exactly the same as not having one when the fighting starts
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Nov 11, 2021 20:32
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If you've ever actually worn legit chainmail or plate armor you know how absurd these claims you can just fight in it forever are. Yes, you can fight for a while, and no matter how fit you are, you get tired. Running around in King's mail (not a historical weave though) is loving exhausting, even if it's fitted correctly, even if you're in very good shape. I don't think any fight with Bronn though is going to go on long enough where you'd get really tired. One of the realities of a guy wearing plate armor vs an unarmored guy is the armored guy can just let the idiot with no armor hit him. Medieval fighting was far more frequently about the ground and pound when it was knight vs knight than it's ever made out in tv and movies.
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Nov 11, 2021 21:05
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A lifetime of video games has taught me the best armor is thong bikinis or assassin tights.
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Nov 11, 2021 22:07
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:A lifetime of video games has taught me the best armor is thong bikinis or assassin tights. this is correct
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Nov 11, 2021 22:22
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tbh this conversation makes the bronn tactic of parrying and shoving the guy's hand around so he had to expend energy specifically in his sword arm sound basically feasible if you sufficiently outclass your opponent, which it seems clear that bronn did
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Nov 12, 2021 00:30
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I just naturally assume that there's some kind of ground between "moved like a 1950s sci-fi robot for five minutes then passed out" and "can parade march for 20 hours to crossfit session without even getting crotch stink" and go from there.
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Nov 12, 2021 02:44
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PittTheElder posted:This could well be, I haven't read the books in years. Catelyn does specifically note that Ser Vardis is much older than Bronn Cat's apprehensive about the fight in general because, unlike anyone else there, she's seen Bronn fight and knows he's very good at it. Really the specifics of Bronn's victory are secondary to the main point of the scene, which is "Bronn is much better at fighting than the average household knight, but the Vale aristocrats failed to anticipate this possibility due to hubris and class privilege" on the question of "how do you get really good at fighting", GRRM seems to go one of two very different directions. Sometimes it's "The intrinsic benefits of castle training and good equipment make the knightly warrior class really dangerous by default, relative to anyone who doesn't have those things". Ex: the 14-year-old Jon showing up at Castle Black as a capable fighter already, able to best older and bigger men. Sometimes it's "The knightly class are a bit soft and a lot of the best fighters are unexpectedly found among sellswords and common men-at-arms who live harder, more dangerous lives". Ex: King Jahaerys's supposedly all-time-great Kingsguard who were mostly Bronn-type dudes.
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Nov 12, 2021 03:28
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and sometimes it takes being raised in the gutter to end up becoming the ultimate fighter, the fooking legend
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Nov 12, 2021 06:13
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PupsOfWar posted:Sometimes it's "The intrinsic benefits of castle training and good equipment make the knightly warrior class really dangerous by default, relative to anyone who doesn't have those things". Ex: the 14-year-old Jon showing up at Castle Black as a capable fighter already, able to best older and bigger men. It's not really a contradiction, when they're actively training they're better than most anyone else due to their privileged training / equipment / even food situation. Even old Barristan Selmy and young Jon Snow are examples of that. But when they stop training and become old, soft, fat or drunk, they keep the arrogance without being able to back it up. Apart from the Bronn case I can't really think of a commoner defeating a noble in a fight, at best they surprise stab the noble when he didn't see it coming.
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Nov 12, 2021 07:54
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Phenotype posted:and sometimes it takes being raised in the gutter to end up becoming the ultimate fighter, the fooking legend My headcanon is that Karl warged into Ramsey when Jon killed him.
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Nov 12, 2021 16:06
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pidan posted:It's not really a contradiction, when they're actively training they're better than most anyone else due to their privileged training / equipment / even food situation. Even old Barristan Selmy and young Jon Snow are examples of that. But when they stop training and become old, soft, fat or drunk, they keep the arrogance without being able to back it up. I don't do HEMA so I wouldn't know, but like my own gut feeling would tell me that fighting an armored knight or similar and fighting a lightly or unarmored man-at-arms/rando civvy would be quite different in terms of skillsets/tactics used. Like in the former case, as have been mentioned, unless you're using a bludgeoning weapon - and even then - you're going to have to target the joints or more lightly armored parts to do anything. A proper set of plate armor was genuinely more or less invulnerable and you would have to target where the armor wasn't. While you know, a person wearing like a gambeson or no armor at all would require much different tactics, no? Since in that case you don't need to worry about targeting the exposed areas since yeah.
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Nov 12, 2021 16:34
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pidan posted:
After the Battle of the Blackwater there's a scene where the Lannisters reward several hedge knights and men-at-arms for notable victories over enemy champions and lords - Littlefinger's minion Lothor Brune being the most prominent in the story
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Nov 12, 2021 17:12
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pidan posted:It's not really a contradiction, when they're actively training they're better than most anyone else due to their privileged training / equipment / even food situation. Even old Barristan Selmy and young Jon Snow are examples of that. But when they stop training and become old, soft, fat or drunk, they keep the arrogance without being able to back it up. It's not a contradiction at all, it's just that there are different paths to becoming a good fighter and not everyone has the skill regardless of upbringing. Jon Snow was talented and paid attention to his training, so he was already a solid fighter when he went to the Wall, but maybe Bran wouldn't be so great at it if he hadn't taken his fall, and Robin Arryn would get laughed right out of the Watch. Bronn or the Fookin Legend of Gin Alley were good enough to become scary dudes, but behind them are probably hundreds of nameless low-born mooks who get ridden right over whenever there's a battle.
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Nov 13, 2021 03:19
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we don't know a drat thing about bronn's past really. odds are he served in a company in essos, honestly; i wouldn't even be surprised if his involvement in the war of the five kings turns out to be an extremely long con from the golden company.
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Nov 13, 2021 03:22
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Yeah I thought the Bronn trial by combat worked. I don't think anyone made Lysa's knight out to be an amazing badass or anything. He was arrogant and kind of past his prime, and probably wasn't getting involved in too much active combat. Bronn was a mercenary who needs to stay sharp to stay employed, and was obviously a veteran of wars and had plenty of recent practice stabbing barbarians in the mountains. I can buy that this out of practice knight with an unfamiliar sword and armor he probably hasn't worn during a fight in years could get a little tuckered out trying to chase him around the room. Even if you're in great shape fighting is tiring. The armor stuff really disappears in later seasons. There is a scene in the later seasons where an armored soldier is wearing a shield on his back and the sword goes through the shield, through his armor, through his chest, and out the front plate. This is all done in service of the classic "Oh, I'm about to GET YOU!" shot where the killer winds up for a big blow and then notices the sword protruding from his chest, as seen in every dramatic moment in the Tolkien movies.
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Nov 13, 2021 03:56
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Having rewatched the fight the really egregious bit is that Ser Vardis is wearing plate but no mail. loving Hollywood man. I was going to question his use of a huge kite shield but I guess if you're that vulnerable, sure.
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Nov 13, 2021 04:31
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Phenotype posted:Bronn or the Fookin Legend of Gin Alley were good enough to become scary dudes, but behind them are probably hundreds of nameless low-born mooks who get ridden right over whenever there's a battle. This topic is interesting to me because of how lowborn soldiery are discussed during the wars - every time people talk about armies they're like "well, really the infantry are just a shambling rabble, you can't trust them to do much", but on-page we do see a lot of foot soldiers who seem pretty well-equipped and drilled. For instance, at the Battle of the Green Fork, Tywin tells Tyrion "Well, your flank was supposed to break, then the pikemen under Kevan were gonna wheel and pin the Northerners against the river" To which the response is "like gently caress they were, if they're the barely-trained levies we always hear about". The pike in is not an amateur's weapon in general, and *wheeling* a pike line is something you'd expect swiss or landsknecht-caliber troops to do, not levies. So maybe GRRM didn't think a lot about this and just describes various armies however is appropriate for the moment - the troops are untrained gap-tooth yokels when you want to do a Broken Man speech, but they're well-drilled professionals when you want to describe cool battle choreography. Alternatively we could reckon certain rich houses like the Lannisters do maintain some professional or semi-professional infantry regiments to augment their gap-toothed yokels, and we just haven't heard the specifics. Or there are a lot of good infantry around and all the "foot soldiers are rabble" talk is just the aristocratic prejudice of our main characters. I do like how much tension in the later Northern storylines revolves around the question of where anyone is gonna find enough manpower to fight any wars after the loss of the main Northern levies in the riverlands. (weird implications for the north's population size and economy aside). It really highlights how desperate and grubby and miserable the struggle between Stannis and the Boltons is. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Nov 13, 2021 |
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Nov 13, 2021 04:48
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