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Rarity posted:All this debate about trans issues is really weird to me cause I'm a trans person and I really don't need them gently caress around with the concept just for me. RJ created the series at a time when people like me were barely in the public consciousness and like that's ok. It's a limitation of the source material cause of the time it was made and that's fine. I'd like them to tweak Aran'gar a bit to make her fit the current climate and Min being an enby would be super cool but they don't need to do more if it causes problems with the story. The genderflip when Balthamel is respun is one step away from being a prison rape joke anyway - the DO does it deliberately because Balthamel got himself killed by leching. I'm fine to see it go.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:30
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So if the Dark One is vital for free will to be a thing, does properly sealing the bore hole deprive everyone of it?
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Nov 15, 2021 02:38
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Nah, the bore just lets the dark one put his metaphorical finger on the balance that is the pattern. Sealing it doesn't destroy TDO's influence entirely, just keeps it from being out of line with that of the light.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:47
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it's only important that fantasy satan exists for things to be 'normal', more or less. there's no qualification that they have to be actively leaking out and threatening the world in a very physical manner at the same time.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Honestly, I'm kinda enjoying watching the right wing outrage mob wet themselves over what's turning out to be a near-punctilious adaptation. Links? I love watching them lose their minds but I've only seen liberals get mad so far since they won't make the story that they want.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:51
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https://www.reddit.com/r/whitecloaks/
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Nov 15, 2021 02:52
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Oh jesus christ, well I don't go on Reddit, twitter, or facebook. i really think everyone's sanity would be better if they did the same.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:56
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I suppose you probably couldn't tell the difference if everyone were deprived of free will. They'd probably be indistinguishable as philosophical zombies with no inner life but who still act like they do as automatons.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:57
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Somebody fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 03:02
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Nitrousoxide posted:So if the Dark One is vital for free will to be a thing, does properly sealing the bore hole deprive everyone of it? Is there free will in a world with literal prophecy? But in either case resealing the bore just puts the world back to where it was in the age of legends and we assume they had free will.
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Nov 15, 2021 03:02
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i could be remembering wrong but i think there's a vision rand has of a version of the world where that scenario has happened and it comes off as weird and horrifying in some fashion or another for whatever reason
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Nov 15, 2021 03:02
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Thats at the very end, when he realises that to force people to be good destroys them as people
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Nov 15, 2021 03:04
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Thats at the very end, when he realises that to force people to be good destroys them as people yeah, that's it. it kind of brings home one of the underlying themes of the series. the pattern has ways it flows and some people are more bound up in it and can more easily bind up others at the same time, but there's always that undercurrent that the existence of both ends is what defines people as a whole. there's a pretty notable distinction made between those who are wrapped up in fate (ta'veren, heroes of the horn, etc.) and those who aren't, and the former sort of get a more raw end of the deal at times.
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Nov 15, 2021 03:09
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The Wheel needs the DO to turn, otherwise everyone is in stasis. e: the Great Serpent Shai'tan causes the Wheel to turn 
Barreft fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 03:15
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Johnny Joestar posted:yeah, that's it. it kind of brings home one of the underlying themes of the series. the pattern has ways it flows and some people are more bound up in it and can more easily bind up others at the same time, but there's always that undercurrent that the existence of both ends is what defines people as a whole. there's a pretty notable distinction made between those who are wrapped up in fate (ta'veren, heroes of the horn, etc.) and those who aren't, and the former sort of get a more raw end of the deal at times. As Lan says, "You have less choice about it than most, but you can still face it on your feet."
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Nov 15, 2021 03:17
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Is there free will in a world with literal prophecy? But in either case resealing the bore just puts the world back to where it was in the age of legends and we assume they had free will. Ya, there is the dark prophecy as well in tGH. Rand decides which is fulfilled.
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Nov 15, 2021 03:20
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Jedit posted:The genderflip when Balthamel is respun is one step away from being a prison rape joke anyway - the DO does it deliberately because Balthamel got himself killed by leching. I'm fine to see it go. The Dark One's motives are mysterious even to its followers. Nobody actually knows why Balthamel was reincarnated as Aran'gar. I forget who it is who thinks "If the Great Lord had a sense of humor, this is clearly a joke, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't so ...?" Nitrousoxide posted:I suppose you probably couldn't tell the difference if everyone were deprived of free will. They'd probably be indistinguishable as philosophical zombies with no inner life but who still act like they do as automatons. The Dark One's existence is necessary, and the absence of free will due to the absence of the Dark or the Light is obvious when people know what to look for. This is shown in the final book, when Mazrim Taim has been forcibly turning people to the Dark, and in the vision Rand creates of a world after destroying the Dark One, forcibly turning everyone to the Light. It's distressing. The Bore allows the Dark One to touch the world and tip the balance, leading to the hundred-year Decline in the Age of Legends which preceded the actual War of the Power. ONE YEAR LATER posted:Is there free will in a world with literal prophecy? I like Rand's interpretation (I think it comes from Rand): Prophecy is not a prediction. Prophecy sets the necessary conditions for events to occur. This doesn't apply to Min. Min's viewings are another story. Those are straight-up predestination. 
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Nov 15, 2021 03:26
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There isn’t free will since Mins visions always come true. There should have been one or two that didn’t come true to make a point of it.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:00
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Yeah there's no free will. The way the Pattern is setup it can't happen. I like that RJ made ta'veren and all that so it makes sense in the story. If there was free will Mat never would have been pulled to be a general in Cairhien or anywhere etc etc.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:05
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He did, and does, actively refuse being a Hero, though.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:11
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The dark one is explicitly an agent outside of the pattern. There are alt worlds where it won and we see basically no life/no pattern. Mins viewing assume pattern superiority. Even without the DO they could all be fulfilled.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:16
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:He did, and does, actively refuse being a Hero, though. He tries.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:16
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Barreft posted:He tries. And he succeeds in not being tied to the horn at least even if he got dragged into a bunch of poo poo in his current life. Hawkwing says he's been offered a spot with them after dozens of lives and always rejected it.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:18
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People have free will to submit themselves to the Creator, through divine grace from the Dragon's sacrifice - which is conveyed to them through the Pattern. This surrender is one of the major themes of the work. Unsurprisingly, Robert Jordan does not present a complete and perfect answer to the theological concept of predestination.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:25
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Zore posted:And he succeeds in not being tied to the horn at least even if he got dragged into a bunch of poo poo in his current life. Hawkwing says he's been offered a spot with them after dozens of lives and always rejected it. He's not tied to the horn anymore cause Rahvin merked him and Rand went huge balefire mode that erased his death. Mat didn't succeed in getting untied from the horn at all. He was lucky. Like the Pattern gave him.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:28
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Barreft posted:He's not tied to the horn anymore cause Rahvin merked him and Rand went huge balefire mode that erased his death. Mat didn't succeed in getting untied from the horn at all. He was lucky. Like the Pattern gave him. No, I mean he's not tied to the horn as a hero. The hornblower thing was separate and would not have tied him to it post-death (which we can tell because his death wiped the relationship). Hawkwing and Rand have a conversation about how he knows both of them from many previous lives. Rand's soul is tied to the horn but Mat's always flips them the bird when they ask.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:29
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I don't get why the dragon being female in past cycles would be disruptive at all - maybe in those cycles, saidar was the half that got corrupted, etc, so it's female channelers that go mad, etc, etc, etc. Very easy to have that change between eons.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:29
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Skyl3lazer posted:I don't get why the dragon being female in past cycles would be disruptive at all - maybe in those cycles, saidar was the half that got corrupted, etc, so it's female channelers that go mad, etc, etc, etc. Very easy to have that change between eons. There is a female dragon. RJ said so, where's the problem with that?
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Nov 15, 2021 04:31
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Barreft posted:There is a female dragon. RJ said so, where's the problem with that? Nah there's a not-dragon that gets spun out, people seemed to be upset the dragon could be female.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:32
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Skyl3lazer posted:Nah there's a not-dragon that gets spun out, people seemed to be upset the dragon could be female. What no, there is a female dragon
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Nov 15, 2021 04:33
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I never got the impression that "The Dragon" was like, a title or something. It was just one guy was so powerful he got a cool nickname, and then became so infamous that his reincarnation became An Event. It's been ages since i read the books at this point though
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Nov 15, 2021 04:35
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Sorry I should say female champion of the light.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:37
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right there's interviews where jordan literally says there is no female dragon but there's a female hero that gets spun out sometimes as the champion of light instead of the always-male dragon i feel like it's all firmly in the territory of poo poo RJ did not seriously plan for and then had to answer increasingly complicated metaphysical fan questions about
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Nov 15, 2021 04:37
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You know I wonder if the 3rd age is exceptionally short in the grand scheme of things compared to the other ages. We know the 2nd age lasted long enough to become a sci-magic utopia where people had forgotten what war was and were doing some insane interdimensional and interplanetary travel. The 1st age is uh the modern world which already has a 10 thousand year history and will eventually be ended by Tamyrlin discovering how to channel. The 3rd age in comparison lasted about 3.5 thousand years and still has a lot of memory of the previous age by the end which was absolutely not the case in the 1st or 2nd. Nihilarian posted:I never got the impression that "The Dragon" was like, a title or something. It was just one guy was so powerful he got a cool nickname, and then became so infamous that his reincarnation became An Event. It's been ages since i read the books at this point though The Dragon was just Lews Therin's title and the mythology behind it was lost so people of the 3rd Age only know it to associate it with him. He's had hundreds of other names and titles across his previous lives that got spun out, that's just the most recent one. The show has been playing it up a bit in their ad material. Mostly because Rand being the Dragon Reborn is equivalent to telling someone you're Hitler Reborn due to the uh extremely negative associations people have with him due to the Breaking of the World. Also it has a ton of prophecy associated with it which is why the reincarnation is a real event. Reincarnation is a normal-rear end thing in the world anyways, everyone is a reincarnated soul of some form or another unless they're one of the rare new souls spun out to be put into a cycle of being reborn etc. The Dragon is only notable because Lews Therin was a key player in the last age and Rand is his only reincarnation this age, and one that's forcast to bring a lot of calamity. Zore fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 04:38
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Nihilarian posted:I never got the impression that "The Dragon" was like, a title or something. It was just one guy was so powerful he got a cool nickname, and then became so infamous that his reincarnation became An Event. It's been ages since i read the books at this point though Plus that whole thing of Latra Posae Decumae telling The Dragon that it was too loving dangerous and being proved right. Yeah, I could see her spreading his name far and wide.
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Nov 15, 2021 04:39
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Nakomi's probably the female version of the Dragon. I can't see why she'd be added out of nowhere like that. Harriet wouldn't allow Nakomi unless it made sense somehow to RJs vision
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Nov 15, 2021 04:43
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Barreft posted:Nakomi's probably the female version of the Dragon. I can't see why she'd be added out of nowhere like that. Harriet wouldn't allow Nakomi unless it made sense somehow to RJs vision Considering Nakomi seemingly has the same Will Power that Rand does at the end of the series, I'd imagine that she is the female equivalent, yes. ed: Idiot puritans are basically saying that souls are immutable identities of specific folks, and they are being gender essentialist, which is why they're all pissy about how "there can't be a female dragon! rand is clearly a man!!!!!"
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Nov 15, 2021 04:56
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Harriet nixed Brandon writing Perrin cleaning the Ways, and Demandreds story in Shara. I can see why cause it's basically fanfic, and that's why I think her letting Brandon wrote Nakomi talking to Avi is really important to RJs notes, Sanderson said as much. It could be Tigraine sure I guess
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Nov 15, 2021 05:25
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Do you think they'll keep the same names for the old stories, like the giants mosk and merc, and the man who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle and suchlike, or do you think they'll do new ones?
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Nov 15, 2021 06:00
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Barreft posted:Harriet nixed Brandon writing Perrin cleaning the Ways, and Demandreds story in Shara. I can see why cause it's basically fanfic, and that's why I think her letting Brandon wrote Nakomi talking to Avi is really important to RJs notes, Sanderson said as much.
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Nov 15, 2021 06:11
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