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Mr.Chill posted:My partner is a massive Malazan fan and wants me to read them. I made it through Gardens of the Moon and a third through Deadhouse Gates and... I just can't do it. I have a degree in literature and the Malazan books are among the hardest I've come across. There's a not-insignificant part of me that feels I should tell you that you're absolutely at the sharp end of the stick right now; that understanding is right around the corner and things will - slowly - fall into place. But there's the other part of me that feels I should suggest that you're maybe not that bright. And that's cool! Like, 25% of people are pretty stupid, so you're in - if not good - then, plentiful company. And sure, not everyone can realise that their degree in literature is worth less than the used post-it notes the university recycled to make the degree certificates, but it's the enthusiasm they completed their 'degree' with that counts, right? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 31, 2021 02:14
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kingturnip posted:
You sound like you're really upset about the peer critiques you got in your 300 level creative writing class
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Oct 31, 2021 02:23
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What is it about this series that attracts brain lords.
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Oct 31, 2021 02:27
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kingturnip posted:There's a not-insignificant part of me that feels I should tell you that you're absolutely at the sharp end of the stick right now; that understanding is right around the corner and things will - slowly - fall into place. You're the reason everyone hates liberals. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 31, 2021 02:30
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kingturnip posted:There's a not-insignificant part of me that feels I should tell you that you're absolutely at the sharp end of the stick right now; that understanding is right around the corner and things will - slowly - fall into place.
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Oct 31, 2021 06:21
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Calm down people. I've always viewed the series as a narrative that you just see bit by bit. However it works, I always view each chapter as just a new random highlight from something I might remember and I just roll with it like that. When it ends up coming together and you start seeing how it's all set up it becomes an entirely different affair. It's like the average fantasy setup and no one cares or should care and it doesn't matter but oh poo poo the lore is weird and wait does he build the houses or wait what's a god in this and oh poo poo that was that tree and drat that's why that dude was there and oh gently caress THATS the ship and gently caress he's that guy|? so wait if he was there that means the she set that up so that he'd be there so gently caress was she the one who made sure that.............. It can be a bit tedious. I love it.
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Oct 31, 2021 08:37
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Mr.Chill posted:
Erikson does this a lot, but I feel like he gets a better handle on it from book 4 onwards. You still those little side-moments, but they feel like little vignettes or short-stories, instead of being quite so fragmented. I really struggled with DG and MOI because there are so many moments where I felt "what is even happening and why do I care?"
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Oct 31, 2021 12:02
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I had to take breaks reading those books 
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Oct 31, 2021 12:29
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From a fellow literature major: These books rank among my favorite I've read, but I bounced off GotM twice before being able to finish it. When reading the main series, I was taking a break after every book to read something else to give my brain a break. They're really loving dense and sufficiently draining in a few ways (structure, vocabulary, plethora of characters, content) that I needed a palette cleanser of something light and fluffy or I don't know if I would have made it through them. That said, I've read the series three times now. Also, it's totally okay if you don't enjoy the books. It certainly doesn't mean you're lumped in with people like kingturnip -- there are different flavors of ice cream for a reason. Read it if you enjoy it, and if not just share your partner's enthusiasm and let them babble on about the cool parts of the books. That's the arrangement my wife and I have made. 
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Oct 31, 2021 13:43
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I remember almost quitting the series after Memories of Ice, a beloved book that simply didn't hit me, before reading the start of House of Chains and being so stunned by its audacity in the change of tone, which it repeats again in later books, that I knew I had to see it through. And I think the end of Deadhouse is an emotional peak of the series worth reaching. I have a literature degree.
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Oct 31, 2021 14:09
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kingturnip posted:There's a not-insignificant part of me that feels I should tell you that you're absolutely at the sharp end of the stick right now; that understanding is right around the corner and things will - slowly - fall into place. Well that escalated quickly. Admittedly it did have me laughing though because of how absurd it is while trying to present it so seriously.
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Oct 31, 2021 15:29
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Aranan posted:That said, I've read the series three times now. I honestly can't imagine being able to do that. Ten books, well over 1000 pages per book. Just reading the last five books took me six months.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:30
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It's been spread out over years. They're not something I crack open on a regular basis or anything. The first time coincided with reading TCG when it released, so that was about 10 years ago. I did it again maybe 7 years ago and it was interesting seeing what a different perspective I had on things just from 3 years of life experience. Then again a couple of years ago I worked through them. I've only read a few of ICE's stuff and I can't stomach the Forge of Darkness trilogy. I haven't picked up TGinW but I plan to soonish. It's just something about the core 10 books that really jives with me.
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Oct 31, 2021 20:47
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Mr.Chill posted:My partner is a massive Malazan fan and wants me to read them. I made it through Gardens of the Moon and a third through Deadhouse Gates and... I just can't do it. I have a degree in literature and the Malazan books are among the hardest I've come across. I feel this way with portions of each of the books that i've read. There are some characters and story arcs where my eyes glaze over and I don't retain anything I read. Books 2 and 3 really sold the series to me.
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Nov 2, 2021 02:38
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The first time I spotted historical characters with new names hiding in the wild sold me on the meandering storytelling. Also isn't the "you might just not be smart" thing a quote or reference to something? Feels familiar.
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Nov 2, 2021 03:51
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Eediot Jedi posted:The first time I spotted historical characters with new names hiding in the wild sold me on the meandering storytelling. To be fair you have to have a very high IQ to understand the Malazan Book of the Fallen. The worldbuilding is extremely subtle and
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Nov 2, 2021 03:53
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Mr.Chill posted:My partner is a massive Malazan fan and wants me to read them. I made it through Gardens of the Moon and a third through Deadhouse Gates and... I just can't do it. I have a degree in literature and the Malazan books are among the hardest I've come across. There's something peculiar about the way Erikson writes, yeah. He leaves key details vague on purpose and then in interviews will handwave it away saying how history and archaeology are imprecise. This characteristic also makes the whole concept of power and ascendants more muddled than it would in some power fantasy like Wheel of Time. I found it off putting at first, but then I realised that without this vagueness, the concept of these ascendants and gods meddling with the world would instead read like Dragonball Z (even more than it sometimes does). "What does the scouter say about Icarium's power level!?" One thing to bear in mind is that each book has seemingly disparate storylines and side characters, but those tend to converge towards the end of each book. To the point that it's actually a little contrived sometimes how those random characters all turn up at the same location. This is what's alluded to in the books as "convergence", a concept which, beyond its justification for why all these ascendant powers end up vying against each other, also serves as a convenient literary device for wrapping up each book.
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Nov 7, 2021 20:50
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Finally hit the last section of Reaper’s Gale… please tell me things happen.
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Dec 8, 2021 00:22
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^burtle posted:Finally hit the last section of Reaper’s Gale… please tell me things happen. Many things happen.
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Dec 8, 2021 01:03
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^burtle posted:Finally hit the last section of Reaper’s Gale… please tell me things happen. If you're that deep in the series, you know a bunch of poo poo happens at the end of every book.
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Dec 8, 2021 20:25
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Jaxyon posted:If you're that deep in the series, you know a bunch of poo poo happens at the end of every book. I think this is the stage where as much poo poo goes down in each book as many other authors manage in a series.
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Dec 8, 2021 20:33
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Anyone found that Malazan has spoiled other fantasy series at all? I was reading some discussions about this series vs Wheel of Time online and most people recommended if one was to read both then to read WoT first, as enjoyment of it will be diminished after reading Malazan. I can sort of see it theoretically, given the overall quality of MBotF and the way it offers such a non-spoon-fed, postmodern take. And WoT is such a huge commitment, even if it's purportedly a lighter read. But I feel tempted after watching the 1st few eps of the adaptation. Basically this is a not-very-well-disguised "shall I read WoT" post in the Malazan thread, as I'm behind on the TV show and don't want to go into the thread, and obviously don't want to go into the book spoilers thread. But I am interested in general answers to the question in my first sentence too. I'm currently reading the Gormenghast series, which is such a different beast I don't think having read Malazan has any effect at all, and I'm keen to re-read LotR for the first time in ages soon, which like WoT is of course a quintessential good vs evil type tale. So maybe I've answered my own question, but curious about others' experiences.
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Dec 9, 2021 17:52
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I felt that way for a while after finishing the series, and imo nothing in the genre matches Erikson, but different authors have different strengths and their stories have different appeals. I read WoT after Malazan and mostly enjoyed it for being a more straightforward high fantasy story of good vs evil, with characters who are much more personable and relatable than Malazan's ten thousand year old assassin mage skeleton lizards or what have you. The only series I've read that I felt came close to the scale and tone of Malazan was R. Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse books, which were inspired in part by Erikson's work and are basically "epic grimdark" fantasy cranked up to 11. That's what I'd recommend if you really want more like Erikson. I especially recommend the first few as audiobooks which imo make the setting's many fantasy names a lot easier to follow. Just be warned, they're very dark books and definitely not for everyone.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:23
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Putting questions of quality aside, Malazan is about the only epic-fantasy series I can think of where each book manages to be self-contained story. So going from that to Prince of the Elder Dragon Chronicles: Knight of Prophecy: Book 1 of 18 is a massive struggle. I've just been reading The Blacktongue Thief, and it's a lightweight but fun pulpy adventure. But it clearly exists just to set up the next book, and even though I enjoyed it I still feel unfulfilled. Regarding WoT - there's a very fun and clever take on the Chosen One and stuff in there. But it's incredibly padded and stretched out. 4.4 million words, compared BotF 3.3. There's a stretch of multiple books that are just moving stuff around for the next climax, and it's infuriating. The central journey of the main characters is pretty good, but it takes thousands of pages, and the characters stubbornly refuse to do stuff.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:37
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Anyone found that Malazan has spoiled other fantasy series at all? I was reading some discussions about this series vs Wheel of Time online and most people recommended if one was to read both then to read WoT first, as enjoyment of it will be diminished after reading Malazan. I can sort of see it theoretically, given the overall quality of MBotF and the way it offers such a non-spoon-fed, postmodern take. And WoT is such a huge commitment, even if it's purportedly a lighter read. But I feel tempted after watching the 1st few eps of the adaptation. I have not found that Malazan has spoiled anything, except perhaps appreciating in-depth world building so much that single short volume stories are a bit harder for me to read. I have read both Malazan and WOT. Malazan twice and WOT three times. I have not found Malazan to have ruined WOT at all. If anything you appreciate the gargantuan world building Jordan undertook with WOT. Plus the story was generally charted out from the beginning, so the series is as cohesive as something that long can be. I would highly recommend jumping into WOT. If you can slog through Malazan, then WOT is a breeze. It's much more approachable. The first book is written for tweens and is 100% a LOTR knockoff (after that the series becomes dramatically better). The bad guy is literal Satan. His minions are obviously and clearly Evil and do evil things. The good guys have slightly different flavors of the motivation of "fight literal Satan." On my last re-read, which I did because my 9 year old book worm nephew picked up the first book, took me all of like four months to finish. It's not like Malazan where you need to chart out multiple simultaneous D&D campaigns with nine different alignment charts to figure out what the hell is going on, and everyone communicates in grandiose innuendo and raised eyebrows. In short, both are good and good for different reasons. Definitely pick up WOT and enjoy the wild ride. If you do pick it up, look up the podcast Wheel Takes, which is a new read through podcast where they discuss the books in order chapter by chapter. You can't google anything without being completely spoiled, and you don't want to be completely spoiled, so that podcast is the most safe avenue for having a secondary resource.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:40
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Thanks for the commments. Yeah the length gives me pause also, even though it's meant to be an easier read than Malazan. I'm pretty patient, but also have kids, a pretty demanding job, various hobbies etc, and sometimes like to have a cheeky joint in the evening. Consequently it took me loving ages to get through Malazan. But given I love the genre and WoT is generally pretty well loved and sounds ultimately quite satisfying, and having been drawn in a bit by the adaptation, I think I might just bite the bullet and do it, even though I have The Dark Tower series sitting unread on my shelf, along with various other genre and non-genre stuff.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:46
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WOT is also much faster to read. less dense and less ambiguity.
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Dec 9, 2021 18:48
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Just to jump on the WoT talk, the audiobooks for WoT are fantastic and have two narrators. One for chapters from a male perspective and one for chapters from a female perspective and they’re both spectacular.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:11
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In my experience, reading WoT diminished my enjoyment of WoT. I don’t think I ever finished book 10. I’ve read Malazan multiple times.
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Dec 9, 2021 20:15
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:I think I might just bite the bullet and do it, even though I have The Dark Tower series sitting unread on my shelf, along with various other genre and non-genre stuff. The Dark Tower is quite a journey. Stephen King wrote it over like 30 years, and it really shows. Just wild changes in tone and plot as he makes the entire thing up as he goes along. Not many people would agree he sticks the landing (he's Stephen King after all). But even when its dumb, its loving wild.
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Dec 9, 2021 21:39
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Not much chatter on The God Is Not Willing… I… went up and down on this one. Starting out, I was excited as the world has visibly moved on, which was excellent. Then the whole middle section seemed to founder a little, with multiple scenes that only occurred to have a scene, like Erikson was writing almost the Malazan version of SNL sketches. Then the final third kicks back into gear, and we get some truly memorable scenes up there with Chain of Dogs, and I’m roaring along, turning pages as fast as I can devour them, with a final few that are very… ‘but this was just the beginning’ setups. I don’t think it’s going to be remembered as his best novel, but it’s doing new things, and that, I really appreciated it for. I definitely found it more pleasurable than the Kharkanas books.
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Dec 9, 2021 22:34
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Shockeh posted:Not much chatter on The God Is Not Willing… I think most people probably read it when it was released outside the US a few months ago. I was talking about it with a friend a few weeks ago and while I’m super excited to see what the characters get up to next if Erikson just wrote a one off novel every now and then staring tertiary characters from the main series going about their lives I wouldn’t complain in the least.
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Dec 9, 2021 23:20
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Strom Cuzewon posted:The Dark Tower is quite a journey. Stephen King wrote it over like 30 years, and it really shows. Just wild changes in tone and plot as he makes the entire thing up as he goes along. Not many people would agree he sticks the landing (he's Stephen King after all). But even when its dumb, its loving wild. I will get to them, at some point (he says hopefully without dramatic irony). One thing I'm glad I read before Malazan actually is The Chronicles of The Black Company series. I mean they were really enjoyable, and obviously influential, so it's neat to subsequently see one of the authors Cook influenced write something in a similar tradition so steroided up and ambitious (and largely successfully I think).
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Dec 10, 2021 00:43
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Anyone found that Malazan has spoiled other fantasy series at all? I was reading some discussions about this series vs Wheel of Time online and most people recommended if one was to read both then to read WoT first, as enjoyment of it will be diminished after reading Malazan. I can sort of see it theoretically, given the overall quality of MBotF and the way it offers such a non-spoon-fed, postmodern take. And WoT is such a huge commitment, even if it's purportedly a lighter read. But I feel tempted after watching the 1st few eps of the adaptation. I've read both WoT and Malazan a bunch of times, and liking one thing doesn't ruin my liking of another. I'm currently doing a re-read of WoT and I'd say it's good. It's not as amazing as when I was a kid, but that's more about how I've changed than the books being "spoiled" by reading anything else. They're hard to compare. I will say that WoT reads way easier than Malazan, but also has more fluff that I will skim over.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:03
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I will say, when I read stories now and the villain is a rapist, or sadist, or child abuser or whatever for no reason but just to set them up as the bad guy in the book I find it super lazy and offputting.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:12
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I will say, when I read stories now and the villain is a rapist, or sadist, or child abuser or whatever for no reason but just to set them up as the bad guy in the book I find it super lazy and offputting. Just make them the good guys and you have MBotF
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Dec 10, 2021 22:23
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I've bounced off of Wheel of Time my whole life. I keep trying to get into it, but it's so heavily gendered? If anyone knows what I mean? Like I can't bring myself to care this much about mans vs womens. It's uncomfortable to read, it just feels Straight As gently caress Am I reading it wrong? Is there something I'm missing here?
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Dec 11, 2021 01:19
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imagine dungeons posted:Just make them the good guys and you have MBotF You might want to read the series before making hot takes, but you do you Cryptozoology posted:I've bounced off of Wheel of Time my whole life. I keep trying to get into it, but it's so heavily gendered? If anyone knows what I mean? Like I can't bring myself to care this much about mans vs womens. It's uncomfortable to read, it just feels Straight As gently caress Nah you got it. It's "Progressive For The 1990's In Epic Fantasy", which means the author actually gave women major roles and speaking parts, and didn't make everyone white. It's still got a gender/sex binary in the magic system and "men are like this, women are like this" in the characterization, and the author has quite a breast fetish while still being somehow less creepy than many male fantasy authors of the era. Malazan's a lot more modern in it's gender take in terms of just basically ignoring it most of the time, but it's still got issues. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 01:19
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Just a joke, my friend.
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Dec 11, 2021 03:11
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lol someone can't read a series cause it's "gendered"? Open your mind and just read it baby. By book 2 you see it's all bullshit, that's the whole point Jordan was making. I'm not online enough so I dunno what "Straight As gently caress" means as a category for books especially since there's a whole bunch of same sex attraction, but like who cares who is horny for who if the story is good? Barreft fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 03:30
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