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Yeah the only reason Lan doesn't immediately go off a murdering is because the bond is passed to Myrelle and she compels him to come to her, then she sends him after Nynaeve which was probably the one thing that would keep him alive.
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Dec 13, 2021 03:58
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seaborgium posted:Like everything else in the books, it's a male/female thing. Male channelers bonded by women can't be compelled by the woman, female channelers bonded by men have it supercharged to the point it's almost like an oath rod. Another Aes Sedai who bonds an Ashaman tells the others that she can't compel him for some reason, but the women who have POV's describe it in similar terms that they "must" do what they were ordered to do, and cannot do what they were ordered not to. That's not the thing at all. The asha'man specifically note modifying the bond. It's not literally the same thing.
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Dec 13, 2021 04:05
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Jedit posted:What we see on screen is coming purely from the Red Ajah, who hardly have a high opinion of the Blues. Blues are the biggest schemers and information gatherers, but all the Ajahs maintain eyes and ears - although the Yellow network is almost vestigial because all they care about is healing and they're already better at it than anyone who can't channel. The X-Ray is right; the Blue Ajah seek out righteous causes. When she says that, none of Maigan, Moiraine, or Siuan contradict her. 
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Dec 13, 2021 04:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I *think* it is because compulsion effects don't work as well on people who are actively holding the power, but it isn't made fully clear I don't think. i assume it's like DBZ beam blast strength
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Dec 13, 2021 04:08
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jng2058 posted:When she says that, none of Maigan, Moiraine, or Siuan contradict her. lol
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Dec 13, 2021 04:12
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i say swears online posted:i assume it's like DBZ beam blast strength it would be really funny if the characters actually used the numerical power ranking system from the WoT encyclopedia/RJ's notes
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Dec 13, 2021 04:13
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Gwaihir posted:That's not the thing at all. The asha'man specifically note modifying the bond. It's not literally the same thing. yeah i remember it specifically being a thing where they say they made it so the aes sedai wouldn't try to kill them or whatever somehow with the way they set up the connection, since that's what they pretty much came there to do in the first place in some form. i don't think it ever goes anywhere beyond that, but i could be remembering wrong on that front.
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Dec 13, 2021 04:16
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Gwaihir posted:That's not the thing at all. The asha'man specifically note modifying the bond. It's not literally the same thing. Ok, but it's still the Aes Sedai/Warder bond can't compel men who can channel. It's not just Rand.
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Dec 13, 2021 04:17
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goethe.cx posted:it would be really funny if the characters actually used the numerical power ranking system from the WoT encyclopedia/RJ's notes *cadsuane's measuring terangreal shatters*
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Dec 13, 2021 04:22
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Woohoo I finally got to the Mat chapter of Winters Heart. Just read a chapter of it but glad that Mat made it out alright ,but he seems to have lost his spear, hopefully he'll get it back. I can't believe its been a whole like 1000 pages with no Mat but I'm glad he's back and hopefully we'll get a lot Mat centric story telling in this book and the next and not so much Perrin chasing after Faile which I'm glad has not come back up again in a lot of chapters. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 04:28
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Johnny Joestar posted:yeah i remember it specifically being a thing where they say they made it so the aes sedai wouldn't try to kill them or whatever somehow with the way they set up the connection, since that's what they pretty much came there to do in the first place in some form. i don't think it ever goes anywhere beyond that, but i could be remembering wrong on that front. We don't see anything on screen that goes further than that though they do explore the implications with Logain's bonded Aes Sedai. And the Ash'a'man have a non-compelly version of the Warder bond they developed initially for the men who brought their wives before they modified it for the Aes Sedai. Which is also just absolute insanity considering how the Forsaken, many of whom were professional researchers who spent centuries studying the One Power, have no idea how the third agers figured out the Warder bond in the first place and then they iterate and develop it further in the Black Tower where you have men who have generously been channelling for like 5 years on their own collaborating while also going insane. It's like waking up 3000 years in the future with everyone having devolved to a medieval tech level but they figured out P=NP pretty casually. Zore fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 04:32
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I'm remembering one point where whichever Aes Sedai bonded Narishma took his Dragon pin away after Rand promoted him because she wanted him to earn it from her instead to make him more dependent. That's hardly the grossest thing that the warder bond is involved in in the series but I'm still angry about it I wouldn't be surprised if they just drop compelling warders entirely, RJ clearly didn't appreciate just how hosed up mind control was and his more "benign" examples of it should stay in the books. I'm very glad they dropped Moiraine's mind control coins, for instance
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Dec 13, 2021 04:48
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CainsDescendant posted:I wouldn't be surprised if they just drop compelling warders entirely, RJ clearly didn't appreciate just how hosed up mind control was and his more "benign" examples of it should stay in the books. I'm very glad they dropped Moiraine's mind control coins, for instance He definitely did appreciate it because people freak out about it whenever it happens. Also you are misremembering the coins, they’re just basically homing beacons, they have literally no mental impact.
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Dec 13, 2021 05:12
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buffalo all day posted:He definitely did appreciate it because people freak out about it whenever it happens. Yeah, the quotes for the coins is quote:"I gave each of the boys a token. It created a bond of sorts between them and me. So long as they are alive and have those coins in their possession, I will be able to find them." Nynaeve's eyes turned in the direction the Warder had gone, and Moiraine shook her head. "Not like that. It only allows me to discover if they still live, and find them should we become separated. Prudent, do you not think, under the circumstances?" quote:"I had suspicions from the first," Moiraine said. "Suspicions are not proof, though. After I gave you the token, the coin, and made that bonding, you should have been willing to fall in with whatever I wanted, but you resisted, questioned. That told me something, but not enough." Which does imply some light compulsion and that Rand is resistant because he can channel. Zore fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 05:16
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I don't remember anything about mind control coins? I remember she handed out coins to track them with in EotW. And I also thought compulsion was openly frowned upon by the Tower. Moraine didn't compel Lan, just transferred his bond, and informed him ahead of time to prevent Lan from immediately killing himself. It was the other Aes Sedai who used the compulsion. And yes, it seemed like she definitely abused that bond/compulsion, and other sisters were openly disapproving. But it's been a long while since I've read the books.
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Dec 13, 2021 05:17
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I don't really get where all these "I hope they remove [hosed up thing]" posts are coming from. I don't think the narrative really endorsed many of the super hosed up things that happened, they were almost always presented as unsettling to terrible, and typically made some sort of commentary on hosed up power dynamics. Mat getting raped at knife point was possibly a little heavy on the humour and didn't hammer the point home hard enough for my tastes, but that's easily corrected.
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Dec 13, 2021 05:18
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Dingleberry2 posted:I don't remember anything about mind control coins? I remember she handed out coins to track them with in EotW. Compulsion is openly frowned on by the tower, but many Aes Sedai know at least a little compulsion because as Verin thinks in Path of Daggers quote:Almost every wilder who came to the White Tower for training—both true wilders, who really had begun teaching themselves, and girls who merely had started touching the Source because the spark born in them had quickened on its own; for some sisters, there was no real difference—nearly every one of those wilders had created at least one trick for herself, and those tricks almost invariably fell under one of two headings. A way to listen in on other people’s conversations, or a way of making people do as they wanted. Almost every sister has a small repository of secret weaves learned by themselves or their Ajah, and eavesdropping/compulsion are usually the first things a fledgling channeler learns to do on their own. They're usually not to the level of 'full on mind control' like the actual weave they call compulsion but we see a lot of Aes Sedai do minor mental manipulations over the course of the books.
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Dec 13, 2021 05:44
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Barreft posted:There's things in the books that are very unsettling, but that's the point. It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Colonel Cool posted:I don't really get where all these "I hope they remove [hosed up thing]" posts are coming from. I don't think the narrative really endorsed many of the super hosed up things that happened, they were almost always presented as unsettling to terrible, and typically made some sort of commentary on hosed up power dynamics. This is the thread that discussed faile smacking perrin around and decided " Robert Jordan is lovely for writing abuse into his series rather than "wow faile is abusive"
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Dec 13, 2021 05:56
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Something something just depict evil
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Dec 13, 2021 05:57
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Johnny Joestar posted:i could be misremembering, but i think the passing of lan's bond was primarily because nynaeve wasn't a full aes sedai by that point and moiraine knew it would be that way due to knowing what would happen because of the red doorway. since it was kind of a taboo thing for those who hadn't taken the shawl yet to have a warder and people would get suspicious if lan, an insanely highly sought-after guy, suddenly started hanging with nynaeve right after moiraine's disappearance. It's not just taboo, it is outright forbidden. Birgitte has a story about a time when an accepted bonded a Warder the day before her promotion to Aes Sedai, and when the Tower found out they delayed her promotion by years, made her give her Warder to another Aes Sedai so that she'd never be able to bond him again, and when she finally became an Aes Sedai they assigned her a Warder(that she hated) instead of letting her pick one.
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Dec 13, 2021 06:35
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CainsDescendant posted:I'm remembering one point where whichever Aes Sedai bonded Narishma took his Dragon pin away after Rand promoted him because she wanted him to earn it from her instead to make him more dependent. That's hardly the grossest thing that the warder bond is involved in in the series but I'm still angry about it In fairness, the Warder bond is not remotely the worst mind control aspect in the series, and I think RJ did understand how screwed up parts of it were given that aspect of it is absolutely not portrayed positively. Hell, even heavy Compulsion isn't the worst, and that can get extremely nasty. The absolute worst aspect of mind control in the series is circles of 13 Dreadlords and 13 Myrdraal being able to literally turn you permanently evil, and I'm actually rather interested in how the series is going to portray that.
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Dec 13, 2021 07:25
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Lord Koth posted:In fairness, the Warder bond is not remotely the worst mind control aspect in the series, and I think RJ did understand how screwed up parts of it were given that aspect of it is absolutely not portrayed positively. Hell, even heavy Compulsion isn't the worst, and that can get extremely nasty. The absolute worst aspect of mind control in the series is circles of 13 Dreadlords and 13 Myrdraal being able to literally turn you permanently evil, and I'm actually rather interested in how the series is going to portray that. I hope the show gets for enough to see this and then also makes it to the post last battle so they can show Nynaeve figuring out how to Heal it.
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Dec 13, 2021 07:39
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I bet it won’t even come up since they barely touch on it in the books.
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Dec 13, 2021 07:40
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https://twitter.com/RationalNerd/status/1470275436022095874?s=20
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Dec 13, 2021 07:48
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Say what you will about the result, but the show runners and writers pretty clearly know and love these books.
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Dec 13, 2021 07:59
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Colonel Cool posted:I don't really get where all these "I hope they remove [hosed up thing]" posts are coming from. I don't think the narrative really endorsed many of the super hosed up things that happened, they were almost always presented as unsettling to terrible, and typically made some sort of commentary on hosed up power dynamics. Any time a bad thing happens in fiction it means the creator supports the bad thing. Depictions of evil must be constrained to harsh language, murder at most. Any bad thing a real person suffered and lives with must never be used in fiction. It may make someone, somewhere uncomfortable. Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 08:24
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cailleask posted:Say what you will about the result, but the show runners and writers pretty clearly know and love these books. Right? I’ve seen some baffling takes that they hate or have contempt for the books because we didn’t get “Narg smart” or whatever. Whether you agree with the changes or no, Rafe clearly loves these books.
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Dec 13, 2021 09:30
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Johnny Joestar posted:i could be misremembering, but i think the passing of lan's bond was primarily because nynaeve wasn't a full aes sedai by that point and moiraine knew it would be that way due to knowing what would happen because of the red doorway. since it was kind of a taboo thing for those who hadn't taken the shawl yet to have a warder and people would get suspicious if lan, an insanely highly sought-after guy, suddenly started hanging with nynaeve right after moiraine's disappearance. it's not as bad as alanna bonding rand by any stretch and at least has some reasoning to it. It's not just taboo, it's a violation of Tower law. In fact the last time a bond was passed was when an Accepted bonded a Warder candidate she liked the day before she tested for the shawl because she was afraid another sister was going to do it. When it was discovered she was forced to pass his bond as part of her penance. So it had to be done via a full sister if Nynaeve hadn't yet gained the shawl, and Myrelle was instructed to pass it to Nynaeve when it was legal to do so. Jedit fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 09:46
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Colonel Cool posted:I don't really get where all these "I hope they remove [hosed up thing]" posts are coming from. I don't think the narrative really endorsed many of the super hosed up things that happened, they were almost always presented as unsettling to terrible, and typically made some sort of commentary on hosed up power dynamics. you don't think all the powerful queens and lady wizards that got turned into subservient slaves/servants to men that were previously below their station but then started liking it and fell in love as endorsing that dynamic?
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Dec 13, 2021 10:22
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Since things will have to be simplified in the process of adapting these books, it would be convenient for that simplification to include the removal of elements that have few consequences, but require a lot of words to explain not only how they work, and would benefit from at least some acknowledgment of the ethical concerns it raises.
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Dec 13, 2021 10:30
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navyjack posted:Right? I’ve seen some baffling takes that they hate or have contempt for the books because we didn’t get “Narg smart” or whatever. Whether you agree with the changes or no, Rafe clearly loves these books. Yes, he only chopped all the original storylines in half to make space for such important stories like Steppin's depression. Some of Perrin's stuff could easily be there without extra locations - saving a wolf from whitecloaks and meeting Elyas; also would make more sense why whitecloaks are after him and Egwene.
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Dec 13, 2021 11:00
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Myrelle is also explicitly noted as an expert in keeping warders alive who lost their aes sedai. Morraine didnt choose by lottery
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Dec 13, 2021 11:27
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navyjack posted:Right? I’ve seen some baffling takes that they hate or have contempt for the books because we didn’t get “Narg smart” or whatever. Whether you agree with the changes or no, Rafe clearly loves these books. If he loves them so much why did he remove 95% of the actual plot of TEOTW and replace it with a new one? to be clear I like the cast, I like these characters (changes to mat notwithstanding), I like the show but it's also really disappointing that it isn't the adaptation of the books I've been waiting 20 years to see but rather some new story using the same characters. There are a lot of awful takes out there - racist bullshit over the casting, homophobic crap about Siuan/Moirane and what not but you can't dismiss the fact that it's not even remotely faithful as an adaptation.
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Dec 13, 2021 11:36
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Noam Chomsky posted:Any time a bad thing happens in fiction it means the creator supports the bad thing. Plus, artists should only create art I like and find comforting.
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Dec 13, 2021 11:38
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Moar 7 & 8 leaks! Hexel fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 11:45
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The Lord Bude posted:If he loves them so much why did he remove 95% of the actual plot of TEOTW and replace it with a new one? Because 95% of the actual plot of EOTW was the plot of Lord of the Rings?
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Dec 13, 2021 11:50
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Hexel posted:Moar 7 & 8 leaks! Min!! Lews Therin!! This dumb show has managed to make me hype for it. I'm going to be so upset when it gets cancelled.
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Dec 13, 2021 11:57
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Jedit posted:Because 95% of the actual plot of EOTW was the plot of Lord of the Rings? Not really?
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Dec 13, 2021 12:01
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:This dumb show has managed to make me hype for it. I'm going to be so upset when it gets cancelled Looks like Min has her temptress britches on and LTT looks like he came straight outta BSG. So pumped.
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Dec 13, 2021 12:07
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The Lord Bude posted:If he loves them so much why did he remove 95% of the ad qctual plot of TEOTW and replace it with a new one? Moiraine shows up in the Two Rivers at the exact right moment and saves the kids and takes them away because she suspects one of them is the Dragon Reborn so she wants to get them to Tar Valon so they can be safe until the Last Battle and in the process they end up in Shadar Logoth where Mat picks up a cursed dagger, then they get separated, Perrin and Egwene end up traveling with Tinkers and eventually captured by Whitecloaks but get rescued by an attack from the wolves, Nynaeve tracks Lan and Moiraine and demands to know where the kids are and discovers she is a powerful channeler, Rand and Mat travel with Thom who they think dies defending them from a Fade, Rand meets Loial in a library of an inn, they all end up reconnecting in a giant metropolis, and after a warning they decide to use the Ways to reach the Eye of the World. Am I describing the plot of the book or the show?
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Dec 13, 2021 12:26
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