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How in the world would that be weird then? That was episode 3. With a character that lets Rand talk about his motivations and what he's feeling and why. And then an explanation as to some of the bad guy's motivation. In your analogy, yes, the innkeep would be close in word count to Gandalf and Frodo. In the first hour of 9.5 hours of movies. After that there are no more innkeep words because the innkeep never appears on screen again.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:39
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th3t00t posted:It's proving my point that the "mains" are anywhere close to the word count of single episode characters(1.5 in stepin's case). At the end of episode 3, it would make sense for Dana to be around the level of Edmond Fielders considering they had to split 3 episodes of main character dialogue into the 5 Edmond Fielders, Moiraine, and Lan. Meanwhile, Dana had most of an episode to teach the viewers about Darkfriends. Also, word count isn't exactly a perfect substitute for development. A lot of character stuff happens without saying words, like Egwene looking smug when she thinks Siuan is calling her the strongest channeler in 1000 years, or Nynaeve glaring at the Aes Sedai. Here is an image of the character screen times per episode:  What counted as "on screen" from the creator: redditor posted:So to get a few things straight, this is not a count of how long a character was specifically in frame or not. That would be far more tedious and I believe less useful. This is a more subjective measure of how much a much a character is in a scene in some relevant way, whether that be visually, audibly, etc. The simplest example if a scene where two characters just talk for 1 minute. It doesn't matter if the camera keeps jumping between showing one character or the other, its a one minute scene for both of them. Probably about 80% of the scenes are that simple, but the last 20% are montages, fight scenes, long shots, etc where things get rather more subjective. One example (still on the simpler side) is a long shot in episode 2 of the main 6 characters all riding for a bit. So all of them are in the scene. But eventually we close in on just Egwene and Moiraine for a few minutes and have the whole conversation about the three oaths. Even though everyone else is right there just off screen (and a leg or arm might even wander into frame) I don't consider that conversation a scene for anyone else. They aren't shown, they aren't in the conversation, etc. Then it zooms back out and continues on as a scene of everyone for a bit longer. I briefly considered the idea of calling this "scene time" instead of screen time but ultimately found the term silly and didn't go with it. If you think that's weird, you can also use the X-ray data (for how long character info was shown as a pop up in X-ray):  Both metrics show that Dana was just blabby, and lots of our Edmond Fielders are just more quiet/reactive. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 17:40
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Data Graham posted:I hope we get Gandalf and Saruman boning down in the new series Elaida?
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Dec 14, 2021 17:40
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the encounter with dana is literally the compressed experience of rand and mat visiting like 5 different inns with weird or not even remotely notable poo poo happening to them, would it genuinely have been better to have some sequence of them flashing by them visiting multiple inns, having like 20 seconds to comment on their surroundings each time, and talking to like 5-6 different people who will absolutely never be notable again or even vaguely remembered by viewers in the least??? jesus christ. like someone can be mad that they cut down Rand and Mat's Big loving Adventure or whatever but then pivoting to it somehow being some failure that the one person they picked to represent a big chunk of that having words that she said is bizarre to me
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Dec 14, 2021 17:41
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it's amazing to me that such wise book readers who have such strong ideas about how TV plots work can literally not understand that featured supporting actors exist to reinforce the development of main characters. like many non-readers who know nothing about this world intuitively understood that Stepin's arc wasn't about Stepin at all but you still have dudes in here like "why did they have an episode about a warder that dies and doesn't matter"
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Dec 14, 2021 17:42
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Perhaps attempting to use strict mathematical data is not a fair representation of a subjective art piece? 
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Dec 14, 2021 17:44
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eke out posted:it's amazing to me that such wise book readers who have such strong ideas about how TV plots work can literally not understand that featured supporting actors exist to reinforce the development of main characters. this is truly a superlative example of "people are good at media digestion" lmao
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Dec 14, 2021 17:47
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Johnny Joestar posted:the encounter with dana is literally the compressed experience of rand and mat visiting like 5 different inns with weird or not even remotely notable poo poo happening to them, would it genuinely have been better to have some sequence of them flashing by them visiting multiple inns, having like 20 seconds to comment on their surroundings each time, and talking to like 5-6 different people who will absolutely never be notable again or even vaguely remembered by viewers in the least??? give me hyam kinch or give me death
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Dec 14, 2021 17:48
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Rarity posted:Perhaps attempting to use strict mathematical data is not a fair representation of a subjective art piece? But... But... That would mean the hour and hours I put into coming up with the perfect nerd math would be wasted time. That can't be at all, can it?!
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Dec 14, 2021 17:50
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Guys I'm sure the writers have done all of the necessary word count analysis as part of their writing process and are correcting future scripts accordingly.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:50
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Ah yes, word count, the one true metric of quality. I can't believe how badly Rafe has let us down.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:51
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MegaZeroX posted:At the end of episode 3, it would make sense for Dana to be around the level of Edmond Fielders considering they had to split 3 episodes of main character dialogue into the 5 Edmond Fielders, Moiraine, and Lan. Meanwhile, Dana had most of an episode to teach the viewers about Darkfriends. Where is this from?
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Dec 14, 2021 17:51
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CainFortea posted:Where is this from?
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Dec 14, 2021 17:53
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MegaZeroX posted:Nynaeve glaring at the Aes Sedai. if you sort by Time Spent Glaring it becomes apparent that nynaeve is the dragon
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Dec 14, 2021 17:53
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How are u posted:Ah yes, word count, the one true metric of quality. I can't believe how badly Rafe has let us down. The show should just be Rand saying 'I am so cool' over and over again for an hour, that would mathematically be proven to be the most successful result
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Dec 14, 2021 17:53
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eke out posted:if you sort by Time Spent Glaring it becomes apparent that nynaeve is the dragon 
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Dec 14, 2021 17:53
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SerSpook posted:give me hyam kinch or give me death Almen Bunt is the superior farmer. Plus he shows up again in Towers of Midnight
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Dec 14, 2021 17:57
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th3t00t posted:It's proving my point that the "mains" are anywhere close to the word count of single episode characters(1.5 in stepin's case). You do understand that Dana was there to introduce the character and motivations of darkfriends to the audience, to show they could be anyone and to explain why they do what they do, something that is going to be incredibly important.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:00
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Nitrousoxide posted:You do understand that Dana was there to introduce the character and motivations of darkfriends to the audience, to show they could be anyone and to explain why they do what they do, something that is going to be incredibly important. As long as the Hobbits and Gandalf still smoke weed, I'm fine with it.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:03
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Nitrousoxide posted:You do understand that Dana was there to introduce the character and motivations of darkfriends to the audience, to show they could be anyone and to explain why they do what they do, something that is going to be incredibly important. How can darkfriends be as important as juggling though?
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Dec 14, 2021 18:03
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CainFortea posted:How can darkfriends be as important as juggling though? Neither is as important as "jugging" AKA naked boobies - at least according to Game of Thrones.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:04
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Prairie Bus posted:Do you remember when that is? I’ll cop to missing it, but I remember feeling like it came out of nowhere in TDR when Egwene begins thinking she was a Dreamer. I think it's when Egwene dreams that Rand is in trouble, and sees Ishamael watching Rand in the dream
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Dec 14, 2021 18:05
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Rarity posted:The show should just be Rand saying 'I am so cool' over and over again for an hour, that would mathematically be proven to be the most successful result This is actually literally what people already think the books are supposed to be
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Dec 14, 2021 18:08
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Hey guys, I'm halfway through The Dragon Reborn. So far only Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene and Rand have had POV chapters. Matt is obviously just a throwaway character right? I mean he kind of did some stuff with a dagger and a horn, but he only talks with the POV character as the sounding board for conversation. He obviously can't be a main character since all he does is joke about girls and be the guy who keeps almost loving dying so he's there for the main characters to save. He obviously can have no impact on the overall story since there's been zero time concentrating on his character motivations.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:08
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Can we get an analysis of the grade level of the vocabulary of each character next?
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Dec 14, 2021 18:08
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there's being annoyed at changes in the show from the books and then there's seeming to fundamentally not understand how tv show plotting and pacing functions compared to, say, massive loving doorstopper books that people routinely complain about having to read so much of, and i'm going to make fun of the latter no matter what
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Dec 14, 2021 18:12
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Holy poo poo is the "OMG look at this word chart that proves show bad!" canned talking point the most insipid bullshit. It's just utter nonsense on every level, and I refuse to believe anyone using it is doing so in good faith. It's also boring to read someone whining about.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:13
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Yeah on the one hand I’m good w criticizing the series as a work of art and talking about how changes in adaptation affect the long term story but on the other hand like 95% of the criticism is 1) insanely boring minutiae like “this magic doesn’t work like I think magic should”, 2) completely misunderstanding stuff, or 3) making up poo poo to get mad about.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:20
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Johnny Joestar posted:also there's so much going on in the world they give a poo poo about that i figure they probably don't really feel like unpacking just what the gently caress is happening in those others I just assumed that after all the problems they had with their first journeys through them, they rightfully wanted to avoid them. The "flicker flicker flicker" bit would make me want to avoid it as much as possible, especially as they discovered travelling so why go through the freaky alternate worlds?
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Dec 14, 2021 18:23
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i guess my big question about adaptation at this point is are they gonna give Aviendha a rat tail
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Dec 14, 2021 18:24
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I'm guessing that we didn't get more of the Matt, Rand, and Thom journey scenes is, because Josha can't play the flute/sing, and Barney can't juggle/sing. Thom was playing guitar, and not harp/flute for the same reason I imagine, as well as not being able to juggle and doing standing double backflips and poo poo. Most of their time together is Thom giving them so marketable skills, and trying to convince them to not got to Caemlyn and eventually Tar Valon.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:29
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seaborgium posted:I just assumed that after all the problems they had with their first journeys through them, they rightfully wanted to avoid them. The "flicker flicker flicker" bit would make me want to avoid it as much as possible, especially as they discovered travelling so why go through the freaky alternate worlds? Also, Jordan needed to do the 'flickering' portal stone to eat up a few months of time without Matt dying in TGH to get everyone into Falme at the same time. He solved the time management problem later on by just writing books that completely ignored major characters, and then retell the same week in the next book from the other 50 characters POV.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:30
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ad090 posted:Thom was playing guitar I think this was a more general change, given what we saw with the forsaken idols. Which is a good call because now we can get an old acoustic vs thrash metal play off between Asmodean and Thom Edit: The Dark One went down to Seanchan but with guitars instead of fiddles
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Dec 14, 2021 18:32
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SerSpook posted:he prefers to think with his axe Perrin thinks with his hammer Hint: the hammer is his penis
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Dec 14, 2021 18:44
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i think there are broadly speaking two ways you can approach adapting a ginormous fantasy series option A, you can try for a 1:1 adaptation and hope you somehow get the 25 seasons or whatever that would take to pull off option B, you can accept that you're working in a fundamentally different medium, think through things in advance, and write your own version of the story inspired by the original GoT's biggest issue (other than the elephant in the room of the books not being finished) was they started out trying option A, realized after a while that they either couldn't do that (due to the elephant in the room) or didn't want to, and tried awkwardly switching to option B. They would probably have been better off going with option B from the start, but that was never gonna happen since it'd be a lot more ~work from a writing/planning perspective and benioff/weiss are lazy hacks. it seems to me that Judkins has decided to go with option B from the start, which makes sense to me!
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Dec 14, 2021 18:46
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There's a lot of time in the books just spent on traveling and honestly that's pretty boring to show. I'm happy with the changes made to the TV series, it'll be interesting how they adapt The Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn where Rand is not even in it at all really.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:58
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seaborgium posted:The "flicker flicker flicker" bit I have a feeling this is the best scene that they're going to cut. I don't see how they do it -- the production values would have to be insane, they'd have to build like ten or twenty different sets. Hollismason posted:There's a lot of time in the books just spent on traveling and honestly that's pretty boring to show. I'm happy with the changes made to the TV series, it'll be interesting how they adapt The Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn where Rand is not even in it at all really. My guess is they'll combine GH and DR into one season. Lots of travel, rand isn't in one book and moiraine is barely in the other.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:59
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PupsOfWar posted:i think there are broadly speaking two ways you can approach adapting a ginormous fantasy series I mostly agree with you I think. In GoT there were many great individual scenes and monologs that B&W wanted to put on the screen and they pretty much lifted those 1:1. They just had to get from cool scene A with awesome line B to next awesome scene, rinse, repeat. Then when they got past what GRRM had written and were just dealing with his notes of 'I want this to happen, then this' the show took a notable nosedive. WoT is far more about internal dialog and slow character growth. There's few monologs that really stand out. "Kneel to the Lord Dragon or you will be knelt" is the only real killer line I can remember. And while there are awesome climax scenes they generally cover the last few chapters of a book and have been built up for hundreds of pages, not just unexpected moments of shock. So to adapt WoT to a show, you've got to create a lot of mini cliff hanger moments, or write a lot of good monologs. So far, the show has done okay with individual scenes. The writing hasn't had a lot of life, especially since it's still 50% exposition. IMO episode 4 had some of the best writing, and it was mostly just Stepin with some nice monolog, and Loial talking to himself. But also Matt and Rand making their suicide pact was a nice human moment, and Iyla's Way of the Leaf monolog about her daughter was powerful. So far the only thing that's gotten close in terms of writing was some of Siuan's stuff.
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Dec 14, 2021 19:04
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I will not be satisfied until I see a syllables per character analysis as words can have more than one syllable and are therefore a poor measure
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Dec 14, 2021 19:07
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Rarity posted:Rand is bland as hell in the first book He's kind of solely defined by his reactions to the story though. Not so much the inner fully formed personality yet. PupsOfWar posted:i think there are broadly speaking two ways you can approach adapting a ginormous fantasy series
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Dec 14, 2021 19:18
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