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Anyway this movie owns bones and has a better message than the other 3 movies
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Dec 24, 2021 21:13
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King Vidiot posted:I mean, neither Neo nor Trinity are trans but you're being willfully dense if you don't get the It's strange that within the subtext, our main characters are only powerful or impactful out of their own agency when they are their fake selves yet in the real world they're only useful as slaves/power to society and don't do anything while everyone else does poo poo around them. Smythe posted:apparently the morpheus storyline about trying to find neo was the plot of the matrix online video game. wow. thats loving sick canon integration. bravo They also did this in a film called The Matrix.
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Dec 24, 2021 21:25
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sigher posted:They also did this in a film called The Matrix. crazy poo poo bro
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Dec 24, 2021 21:27
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It’s crazy bad in this movie that they ended up on a train and it ended up being a bad place for our main characters. This essentially is anti train and I don’t think we need to stand for that. Trains are used to get people to different places. They are not evil!! Horrible lana
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Dec 24, 2021 21:27
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no dude i mean after he sacd himself. jesus christ.
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Dec 24, 2021 21:27
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Necrothatcher posted:Why not just put trans characters in the movie? I think the idea there is that canonically speaking trans people living out their truth are indistinguishable from normal everyday people. they are just living their life as who they were always supposed to be. someone please correct me if I'm off track here though
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Dec 24, 2021 21:28
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hiddenriverninja posted:Was the Matrix game in the movie Path of Neo? Explicitly no because Path of Neo ends with you fighting a giant ubersmith and they show scenes of Neo sacrificing himself.
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Dec 24, 2021 21:34
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Necrothatcher posted:Why not just put trans characters in the movie? I'd guess for the same reason why Joe Russo pretended to be a gay man in Endgame. Studio politics maybe? Can't have these blockbuster franchises be too progressive you see. [edit] I forget where I read it, but I do remember reading the Switch character from the first film is supposed to be trans, or was originally going to be. Not sure if it was the Wachowskis or just some comment about the production from someone who worked on the film, but Switch's residual self-image inside the matrix/programs is a woman and in the real-world/Zion she appears as a man. teagone fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 21:34
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My favorite part of the movie was the soft confirmation that Morpheus definitely actually died from an assassin that was just a bunch of flies in a trench coat. My reasoning is that the statue of him in the candle cave, made on IO many years after they left Zion, was of the age he was when he would've died to the flies and not some older, aged version of him they would've used had he survived at least another decade. Neo: "What happened to Zion?" Niobe: "We don't talk about Zion." *flashbacks to this* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWPey1fU9Ok&t=54s (Small reminder that you can thank the writing genius behind Half-Life 1 and 2 for this.)
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Dec 24, 2021 21:52
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DaveKap posted:My favorite part of the movie was the soft confirmation that Morpheus definitely actually died from an assassin that was just a bunch of flies in a trench coat. My reasoning is that the statue of him in the candle cave, made on IO many years after they left Zion, was of the age he was when he would've died to the flies and not some older, aged version of him they would've used had he survived at least another decade. lol yea it absolutely owns
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Dec 24, 2021 21:57
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I mean Trinity died from being Hicks In Alien 3'd. Ain't like anticlimactic deaths are new for the franchise.
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Dec 24, 2021 21:59
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She didn’t get hicksed. She died on screen
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Dec 24, 2021 22:05
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Yeah, Trinity had like a 15 minute death scene in Revolutions lol.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:08
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CelticPredator posted:It’s crazy bad in this movie that they ended up on a train and it ended up being a bad place for our main characters. This essentially is anti train and I don’t think we need to stand for that. That train was no angel
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Dec 24, 2021 22:09
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sigher posted:It's strange that within the subtext, our main characters are only powerful or impactful out of their own agency when they are their fake selves yet in the real world they're only useful as slaves/power to society and don't do anything while everyone else does poo poo around them. This doesn't really mean anything because nobody has any power outside the Matrix. People can't fly and stop bullets in the real world, and Neo and Trinity's strength doesn't come from their intelligence or leadership skills in the physical world. And why are their digital selves "fake" just because the Matrix is fake?
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Dec 24, 2021 22:10
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You think just one metal bar pierced trinity in revolutions. But nope camera pans out and it’s like 7 of them.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:11
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Necrothatcher posted:Why not just put trans characters in the movie? Because that would limit the ways you can interpret the movie, of which the movie being a trans allegory is only one?
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Dec 24, 2021 22:12
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J33uk posted:Mental health professionals are there to manipulate you. Going off meds will actually help you understand the world better. You love her, she doesn't really know who you are but come on she doesn't actually love that guy. Everyone else you see is functionally just a bot following a loop or someone actively trying to suppress you. When you drink and consider suicide it's the only time you're really alive. Yeah, I also don't want to make too much out of it but it is kind of sad that this new Matrix movie still uses this old trope about psychiatry and builds its theme around it in such a way. There is already enough stigma around it and how you should treat mental health. Depictions like this certainly don't help and I know it is easy to dismiss as "it's just a movie" but media does shape society and while I don't think Lana had bad intentions or necessarily wanted to portray therapy in general like something bad it still offers a very troublesome reading and plays into notions that are just problematic. It wasn't even needed and thus blurring the line between "mental health issues" (and actual suicide), paranoia and the SciFi themes (are we living in a Simulation?) is not a good step imo, especially considering Matrix cultural impact in the past. I do understand why this trope is so tempting to use and while it certainly makes sense within the story you could have achieved the same in other ways which is exactly what the first movie did. There it was the "system", your boss holding you down and you simply felt alienated while still bein chained to it, it wasn't some sort of mental illness that made you question everything. Using this trope is thus not only unnecceary but was played out before even the first Matrix movie came out so I'm not sure why you'd go for it. King Vidiot posted:This doesn't really mean anything because nobody has any power outside the Matrix. People can't fly and stop bullets in the real world, and Neo and Trinity's strength doesn't come from their intelligence or leadership skills in the physical world. I mean there was this weird one time where Neo outside the Matrix did stop the sentinels via psychic(?) powers (the technobabble solution is probably something like hacking via "wlan" through his still remaining implants). It is also interesting to point out that the machines CAN fly in the real world and probably don't care too much about bullets. I think it is okay for the Matrix movies to have flaws and there were always certain flaws or some troublesome areas like the whole aspect of how "NPCs" (humans not aware of the matrix) were treated within the story in a very non-chalant way (you can be of the opinion that there are "sacrifices" necessary but the Matrix was always a bit too dismissive and very uninterested in that topic). On a thematic level one could consider it a weakness that Neo and Trinity never amount to much outside the Matrix (that's all reserved for other characters), just like the idea of a "chosen one" always carries its problems and yet the Matrix chose to never subvert that particular trope and instead you get a new type of "superhuman" being which always surprised me a bit considering Lana's own history. That's why I thought before Matrix 2 and 3 that "the chosen one" angle wouldn't be played straight but it totally was and Matrix 4 makes it even more explicit (it's only these two human beings that are so important that they alone are the key to everything for the Machines). There is also this constant paradox of the Jesus figure/all the religious elements and how these forces actually act in the real world and don't really play nice with egalitarian societies and especially minorities like trans people but I will admit that I am not a fan of this kind of religious spirituality and how much of it was present even amongst the machines, it always felt like a bit too much of our human perspective applied to them. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 22:15
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proletariando posted:Because that would limit the ways you can interpret the movie, of which the movie being a trans allegory is only one? The only thing Resurrections has to say about the trans allegory is to mock it.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:17
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J33uk posted:Mental health professionals are there to manipulate you. Well, this part at least is a tautology. This is why ethics in the field are so important, and if you are looking for a therapist or a psychiatrist, you need to make very sure that they are good at what they do and you need to find someone who understands you and has the same goals that you do. As others have pointed out, if you do the trans reading of the film, the Analyst represents anything from a gatekeeping therapist to a therapist who either explicitly or implicitly attempts conversion therapy. It's not a criticism of all mental health professionals, it's a directed criticism of a very specific sort of bad person who really does exist out there in real life. I know trans people who've been through that web of poo poo, the assholes responsible absolutely loving deserve criticism.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:19
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King Vidiot posted:This doesn't really mean anything because nobody has any power outside the Matrix. People can't fly and stop bullets in the real world, and Neo and Trinity's strength doesn't come from their intelligence or leadership skills in the physical world. ??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z448-EqsO-c sigher posted:It's strange that within the subtext, our main characters are only powerful or impactful out of their own agency when they are their fake selves yet in the real world they're only useful as slaves/power to society and don't do anything while everyone else does poo poo around them. You can read the subtext as putting up a facade is the only way you can feel powerful against a society that would otherwise crush you if they knew you you. Being relegated as a slave to society/stripped of one's power outside of the accepted simulation is akin to being an outcast. When Neo believes he is able to stand up against the oppressive machines outside of the matrix, you can relate that is one's true self shining through becoming so powerful that it threatens the sanctity of what oppressiveness holds dear: to crush agency and make those who would rebel against what society wrongfully considers "normal" feel alone and scared. Necrothatcher posted:The only thing Resurrections has to say about the trans allegory is to mock it. I don't think that's true. I feel like it's instead throwing shade at those who refuse to engage with that particular reading of the text. teagone fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 22:22
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Necrothatcher posted:The only thing Resurrections has to say about the trans allegory is to mock it. I think the trans allegory willy fly over 90% of viewers' heads anyway. I think it's cool that a movie can have multiple interpretations, especially one whose whole main idea in the series is thinking for yourself
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Dec 24, 2021 22:25
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Lana and Lily have literally said the matrix is a trans allegory. So they wouldn’t mock it. But they will also say it’s not only that. The brainstorming montage was showing all the things the matrix was to people, and all of the things people would want out of the sequels. Some of it was more playful than others yeah (bullet time!), but the satire was more on the process/pressures of studio demands/marketing.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:32
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I work in marketing and that meeting montage is very real. Like that was less satire and more lifted directly from actual board rooms.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:36
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Hi Big Old Lesbian Trans Woman here. The bit where they directly referenced the trans reading was absolutely not mocking it because it was in context of all sorts of valid interpretations of the movie. The only thing being lightly mocked is saying that The Matrix absolutely, 100% is about one thing and that one thing only. For me, Neo and Trinity both read as trans because their immediate connection and a lot of the very subtle interactions in the first movie vibe intensely with how I've felt meeting other trans people. Trinity is just a little bit farther ahead and Neo is absolutely looking to her for guidance and support in ways that I find super sweet. Trinity sees this person she already thinks is great and believes he could become even greater. The romantic climax of the first movie builds off all of that. The trans reading drops off for the most part for the rest of the series other than fighting for what's next now that you've made the choice to embrace yourself. I think making the characters very explicitly trans might have opened up other things but it would have easily been clumsy and horrible, especially being made in the late 90s-early 00s. Also the Wachowskis were still pretransition and there is more applicability to the story by not making them explicitly trans. It also gets into issues of 'unless they got tits here but not there then they aren't trans' which is cis and medicalist nonsense. In conclusion, cis people shut the gently caress up about it being trans enough or not. Trans people can debate it.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:36
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checkplease posted:You think just one metal bar pierced trinity in revolutions. But nope camera pans out and it’s like 7 of them. They definitely watched End of Eva before directing that scene.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:47
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I actually think trying to draw partitions such that the Analyst is a "bad" therapist or a "fake" therapist or whatever is missing the point, which VROOM VROOM illustrated well some pages ago. Mental health under capitalism means being able to work, so the most skilled, empathetic, and understanding shrink is going to gently and supportively get you back into a place where some some boss can suck away your life-force on the reg.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:51
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PT6A posted:Well, this part at least is a tautology. This is why ethics in the field are so important, and if you are looking for a therapist or a psychiatrist, you need to make very sure that they are good at what they do and you need to find someone who understands you and has the same goals that you do. I'm also sure that this is the intention behind it but the execution is flawed. The Analyst for example is "genuine" and doesn't do anything bad, he is actually very supportive and reacts as you'd hope he would. The only reason why he is a "bad" therapist is because of the Matrix itself. Neo is only not "crazy" because there actually is a Matrix and his therapist is actually a "lizard" trying to manipulate him. So we get a therapist who does good work but is still bad because it is the Matrix. The "conversion therapy" angle only works on the level of the Matrix but it doesn't work in the relationship between the Therapist (and here I mean the Analyst in his role as therapist) and Neo. There it is only "conversion therapy" because the Therapist refuses to play into Neo's delusions and that's okay because that's what you are supposed to do as Therapist or really anyone should do, reading that as "conversion therapy" would be problematic and yet that's what we get. I think the issue here is that the allegory fails because you mix the topic of how transgenderism is treated in therapy with a topic like serious mental illness (and Neo is a a suicidal patient with delusions). Ferrinus posted:I actually think trying to draw partitions such that the Analyst is a "bad" therapist or a "fake" therapist or whatever is missing the point, which VROOM VROOM illustrated well some pages ago. Mental health under capitalism means being able to work, so the most skilled, empathetic, and understanding shrink is going to gently and supportively get you back into a place where some some boss can suck away your life-force on the reg. I'm really not convinced by this and don't think that therapy is an especially good area if you want to find anti-capitalist messaging, especially considering that it is an area which is probably the most "progressive" and least cynical. If it was up to capitalism there wouldn't even be therapy or any considerations for mental health. Any concessions to these things only exist due to societal pressure in the first place. You can of course still find critiques of capitalism in the modern health care systems but the emphasis should then be on the systems but in this case it's all about a therapist and how he uses his craft to manipulate Neo, it isn't really grounded in an anti-capitalist message despite the fact that they could have played up the fact that Neo wouldn't be able to create his new game if he relapsed and thus the therapist (under pressure from the company) decided to do something which is questionable (and is perceived as such by the audience). That's the problem in all of this, the therapist isn't really "corrupted" by the systems or does anything wrong, the therapist is only bad because the Matrix is actually a thing and thus actual mental illness is the same as being aware of the Matrix which poses the interesting question what happenes to someone who is actually delusional in the matrix and thinks he is part of a simulation that isn't the Matrix. 
LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 22:56
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Why can’t there be a bad therapist in a movie, why does that have to be the ethos of their whole life. Dang. Like art says stuff but I think it’s lame to think that because they portray a thing as negative it means all of it is bad. Guns are used to save the heroes in this movie. Ergo all guns are good
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Dec 24, 2021 22:59
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CelticPredator posted:Why can’t there be a bad therapist in a movie, why does that have to be the ethos of their whole life. Guns have terrible accuracy in the matrix. Is this by design???
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Dec 24, 2021 23:01
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Guns have terrible accuracy in the matrix. Is this by design???
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Dec 24, 2021 23:02
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DaveKap posted:Beat me to it. The guns can't hit anything so guns are actually bad. Imagine growing up in this simulation with just a common understanding that guns are just completely loving worthless but they look cool as hell.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:03
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If they only knew the true power of the gun kata
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Dec 24, 2021 23:03
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You don’t get it Lana needed all the machine gun fire to be extremely close range and not hit or graze any good guys when fired by bad guys because of the deep parody.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:13
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M4trixz: The Duel
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Dec 24, 2021 23:13
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Emily VanDerWerff has an interesting take on the film's depiction of therapy, basically seeing it as more of a critique on how trauma is handled in popular media, fitting in with how much of the movie is one long piss-take on current trends in popular media in general.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:15
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CelticPredator posted:Why can’t there be a bad therapist in a movie, why does that have to be the ethos of their whole life. Why can't there be casual racism, sexism etc. like there used to be in movies? I really don't want to say that the therapy stuff in the Matrix is AS bad as these things used to be but movies often still portray topics of mental health in questionable ways and do contribute to harmful stereotypes and I do think it is worth discussing them, especially in a franchise like the Matrix. It is also interesting that you bring up guns because there is certainly something to be said about how Matrix did fetishize guns as well as violence to a certain extent (and certainly not by accident considering the outfit choice) that wasn't without problems especially in regards to how innocent people within the Matrix were treated. And I don't mean this in a "please think of the children" kind of way but I find it interesting to explore such topics and while that is certainly new for movies it is interesting how The Matrix has all these different "messages", often in paradoxical ways and is imo one big reasons why it gained such a following across the political spectrum and was used and abused by so very different people. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 23:17
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The Dave posted:You don’t get it Lana needed all the machine gun fire to be extremely close range and not hit or graze any good guys when fired by bad guys because of the deep parody. I can say a lot of good things about the movie but almost any action scene involving automatic weapons felt incredibly perfunctory. They couldn't find a way to make these situations work where characters could convincingly survive them so they didn't even bother. Also, later on- Neo being able to do energy shields against everything arrayed against him also seemed like a cheap substitute for choreography when the point is he doesn't have the superpowers.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:20
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Six minutes 48 seconds in and I'm thinking it's like Hackers with none of the charm mixed with some Katniss Everdeen YA fiction cliches. An hour in and it is still that, so I turn on the subtitles and start shampooing the living room carpet, splitting my time between occasionally looking at the TV and telling the dogs to stop attacking the carpet shampooer. This movie is so bad it made me do housework.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:23
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stfu
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Dec 24, 2021 23:24
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