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I guess my disappointment with the movie is because i was hoping it'd be super queer and lean hard into the trans messaging. I mean sure in 1999 a studio might stop you being explicit about those themes but it's 2021 and Lana seems to have been allowed to make whatever movie she wanted. I guess she wanted to complain about being forced to make an unnecessary sequel rather than a kickass trans positive action movie. But the jokey dismissal of the trans interpretation just feels a bit mean. And not including any actual trans representation at all in a franchise so beloved by the trans community is a real let down
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Dec 24, 2021 23:25
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One thing I forgot to mention that annoys me in regards to the worldbuilding: The humans outside the Matrix escaped an oppressive system and yet they created a very hierarchical society? Why are people answering to a "general"? Do we think that this new human society is egalitarian? Who gets to eat the strawberries and how much do they cost? This is of course a bit tongue in cheek but if you would actually try to answer these questions then it would probably be hard to say that most in Zion or I/O have a "better" existence outside the Matrix besides having the illusion of being free. I mean considering that the Matrix simulation seems to allow for "growth" within the simulation itself, ie technology and society still "advance", you could end up in a situation in which people have more rights within the Matrix than a human society outside of it, especially considering that scarcity of resources and an existential threat from outside are great ingredients for a very militaristic/authoritarian society. These are the arguments the Machines should have really made. 
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Dec 24, 2021 23:36
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Necrothatcher posted:I guess my disappointment with the movie is because i was hoping it'd be super queer and lean hard into the trans messaging. I mean sure in 1999 a studio might stop you being explicit about those themes but it's 2021 and Lana seems to have been allowed to make whatever movie she wanted. Reminder that Matrix 4 was produced by the studio who cut out all POC character story arcs for their version of Justice League. I think it's naive to believe that Lana still wasn't put under studio mandates while making Resurrections to where she could just do whatever she wanted. [edit] And again, WB was going to make Matrix 4 with or without her. It's not like they were begging her to come back. teagone fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 23:40
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CelticPredator posted:She didn’t get hicksed. She died on screen She got impailed by a metal rod after a crash. That is what I meant
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Dec 24, 2021 23:55
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To say that the corporate workshopping scene dismisses the trans theme would be like interpreting Agent Smith's speech in Revs as dismissing the concept of love. The key is when Neo wonders why the Matrix would hide him as the famous game developer of The Matrix. The Matrix is deploying these ideas that are dangerous to it as a way to defang them. "Thomas Anderson" is compelled to consider his acts of heroism as commodified flights of fancy daily, which the Analyst uses in his therapy sessions to further ground him in his fake reality. As for the trans themes, the act of Chad laughing at "Tiffany" when she says she identifies with Trinity disempowers her, discouraging her at first from joining Neo and embracing her true alter ego. By offering the promise of this transformation and then commodifying it, it makes the dream seem unachievable and worthless.
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Dec 25, 2021 00:01
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Necrothatcher posted:But the jokey dismissal of the trans interpretation just feels a bit mean. And not including any actual trans representation at all in a franchise so beloved by the trans community is a real let down I mean, totally valid if that's the way anyone took it, but my read on that moment was just Lana venting about the endless debate itself, not her being dismissive of any of the interpretations within that debate.
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Dec 25, 2021 00:48
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I just watched it again and re: therapy what I noticed was that the Matrix uses a bad therapist to control Neo, and a family to control Trinity. In the latter case, she even says that she's "too tired" as a result of family obligations to go to therapy. It's not that therapy in general is harmful, but bad therapy and bad actors as therapists can be devastating.
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Dec 25, 2021 01:03
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I'm 20 minutes in and this is Gremlins 2 except it sucks.
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Dec 25, 2021 01:30
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#notalltherapists
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Dec 25, 2021 01:40
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Always love when goons are like "ok I watched the first twenty seconds of the movie and stopped to make a forum post about it, lol what the heck is going on??"
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Dec 25, 2021 01:58
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First the movie said it was from Warner Brothers, then it said it was from Village Roadshow? What the hell is this plot hole garbage? Did no one even pay attention when they were making this???
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Dec 25, 2021 02:01
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I watched only the last nine minutes of Nomadland and frankly Chloe Zhao has some explaining to do about this woman and her stupid van
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Dec 25, 2021 02:03
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Martman posted:Always love when goons are like "ok I watched the first twenty seconds of the movie and stopped to make a forum post about it, lol what the heck is going on??" I'm an hour in now, and it's even worse.
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Dec 25, 2021 02:05
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The Human Crouton posted:I'm an hour in now, and it's even worse.
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Dec 25, 2021 02:10
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Okay, I remember that Neo was dead but now he's alive and they're calling him Thomas Anderson again for some reason? Is that a reference to the first movie? I haven't watched it in years though this seems dumb. I'm listening to 4 podcasts and masturbating but the filmmakers really hosed this up by making it so confusing.
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Dec 25, 2021 02:12
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it would still be quicker to turn round and exit the movie through the front than to carry on though
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Dec 25, 2021 02:12
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People phone posting while watching movies are really telling on themselves huh
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Dec 25, 2021 02:15
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The Human Crouton posted:I'm an hour in now, and it's even worse. Definitely keep us updated!
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Dec 25, 2021 02:17
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pospysyl posted:As for the trans themes, the act of Chad laughing at "Tiffany" when she says she identifies with Trinity disempowers her, discouraging her at first from joining Neo and embracing her true alter ego. By offering the promise of this transformation and then commodifying it, it makes the dream seem unachievable and worthless. ...but then actually Chad was a bot the whole time and the reason he laughed was to ensure she was discouraged, as we initially thought? I don't really understand why they'd bother to throw the less-interesting wrench in the machine there. Shiroc posted:Okay, I remember that Neo was dead but now he's alive and they're calling him Thomas Anderson again for some reason? Is that a reference to the first movie? I haven't watched it in years though this seems dumb. I'm listening to 4 podcasts and masturbating but the filmmakers really hosed this up by making it so confusing. The part that makes way less sense is the fact that Bugs says at the very beginning that she's searched all over for a Thomas Anderson but he never comes up... except he's apparently an ultra-famous game developer so I don't understand how he's never come up in her searches. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 02:21
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DaveKap posted:Neo's "not a hacker" Matrix name was always Thomas Anderson. "Mister Anderson" is what Smith kept calling him. Neo was his internet screen name, adopted once he became unplugged. 1) I was making a stupid joke 2) They address that directly because Bugs said they were searching for all of the Thomas Andersons in the Matrix but none of them looked right because of the weird stuff the Matrix did to hide him and Trinity. It was only when they found the Modal that they realized they had the right one.
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Dec 25, 2021 02:31
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Shiroc posted:1) I was making a stupid joke
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Dec 25, 2021 02:46
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What did I miss with the Analyst saying the name Tiffany was an inside joke and Trinity genuinely being angry about it? I'm guessing I've forgotten something from one of the other movies?
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Dec 25, 2021 02:48
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DaveKap posted:Sure... but... they didn't somehow find it heavily coincidental that the guy who won an award for creating a video game that matches a known real-world history just happens to have the same name? I know this is in the "it doesn't really matter" camp of analysis for this movie but I'd like to know how else the Analyst tried to cover this up. Was there a line of cars, a cartoon, and a cereal all also made by different Thomas Andersons to cover the tracks? Maybe that's why they decided to keep digging harder and found eventually the Modal because it was so weird? The implication of Neo having tried to kill himself before also means that everything about who he is within the new Matrix(es) is super fragmented and uncertain. Its not clear when this new Matrix was put online and maybe by time Neo existed in it to be found, nobody really was trying to look anymore. Who knows what else about the known history of real world got co-opted by the machones. Also yeah, it doesn't really matter. e:And how many people in Zion/Io would even know his Matrix name? It seems like it would be gauche to talk about people's dead names. Shiroc fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 02:52
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Shiroc posted:e:And how many people in Zion/Io would even know his Matrix name? It seems like it would be gauche to talk about people's dead names. Something goofy I just remembered: For anyone who is a fan of The Magicians, who else got Dean Fogg vibes when Morpheus wore the blue glasses and laughed at the other agents?
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Dec 25, 2021 03:11
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Really liked the first 40 minutes, until Neo leaves the Matrix. except for the action scenes. Although in hindsight the idea that Morpheus excessively flipping all over the place as parody is kind of funny. It starts so strong with the weirdness, mystery, meta commentary that is weirdly honest for a big budget film, Keanu Reeves actually getting to act and interesting new characters like Bugs and wacky Not-Morpheus really sets a promising start that it then fails to deliver on. It's not like the film runs out of messaging, like the original there is a lot of subtext and metaphors from the blunt to subtle. Neo and Trinity literally reanimated from the dead to extract all they can from them is so on the nose. But it feels to me like as you get further in ideas become more half baked in how to actually translate them into good scenes, which isn't helped by the need for multiple action scenes which are woefully short of the original triology. The Smith fight might be a statement on repeating content we've seen before but seeing a mediocre fight didn't make a good scene. Same for the bots as a metaphor for controlled mass media or society under capitalist influence, they end up as a watered down burly brawl/zombie fight. Why did they not ditch Smith from the film when they couldn't get Hugo Weaving? He must be very confusing for zoomers who never saw the originals and I think he was unnecessary and confusing in how he fits into the lore.
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Dec 25, 2021 03:35
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Remember that IO doesn’t necessarily want to find Neo. The whole point is that there is a thriving city now that doesn’t want to start a new war. Besides, most would assume Neo to be dead. Bugs is more of the rebel/believer here. Also the whole value of hiding in plain sight. This Thomas Anderson was probably looked at early on and dismissed for his appearance and personality until the modal.
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Dec 25, 2021 03:36
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Why would a zoomer watch a 4th part of a series without seeing the first 3 in which smith is heavily featured.
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Dec 25, 2021 03:38
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Shiroc posted:Maybe that's why they decided to keep digging harder and found eventually the Modal because it was so weird? The implication of Neo having tried to kill himself before also means that everything about who he is within the new Matrix(es) is super fragmented and uncertain. Its not clear when this new Matrix was put online and maybe by time Neo existed in it to be found, nobody really was trying to look anymore. Who knows what else about the known history of real world got co-opted by the machones. Also yeah, it doesn't really matter. I thought he succeeded in committing suicide? When the Analyst talked about trying so many times and nearly giving up until he realized that Trinity was needed implied that Neo had rejected the Matrix previously (probably multiple times) which was not only why the Analyst gloated so much about having successfully perfected everything but why Neo & Trinity had not aged as much as Niobe, since they were repeatedly resurrected? We very nearly see him kill himself again in the exact same way before Bugs gets there just in time. I admit I was tired when watching however so could have missed something obvious that makes me wrong, but my take was that the "new" Matrix had actually failed a number of times due to Neo rejecting it and committing suicide before the Analyst had his breakthrough moment with Trinity? Bugs mentions that she had her awakening when getting a glimpse of the real Neo just before he jumped however which might disprove the theory? Then again, if he had lived then that would have made it very easy for them to find Neo (which they said was incredibly difficult for them) since they'd know who he was and what he looked like, but a reset would have wiped that I assume and a new look given to him? It would still be weird that Bugs would not immediately be checking that person first however.
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Dec 25, 2021 03:39
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SUNKOS posted:
I think the implication was that he jumped and then didn’t fall. I think Bugs mentions that him floating there is what crack-pinged her into realizing what was going on. They probably did the same thing they happened after the gun battle in the office to make him believe that didn’t happen.
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Dec 25, 2021 03:43
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I loving loved this, even if I have a few nitpicks. My biggest nitpick isn't about the writing or plotting or acting, It's that they didn't bring back Don Davis' amazing love theme for Neo and Trinity from Reloaded/Revolutions. Considering how important the love between them is in this film, it would have been fantastic. Johnny Kilmek and Tom Tykwer do a great job and the newish love theme is not bad by any shades, but drat, if that Don Davis theme kicked in at some point when they were pining for each other? I'd have probably shed a tear. One thing I loved about the film was The Swarm stuff at the end. It's somewhat of a rehash of Smith's replicating from the sequels, but it's done with real actors in a real space and it looks and feels fantastic. Some of the action in the film isn't as good as it could be, but that scene was delightful and didn't feel cartoony and fake like the Burly Brawl in Reloaded
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Dec 25, 2021 03:48
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I enjoyed it, especially the meta stuff, but someone said the film and action looked like a Marvel movie and they were right I liked the Sentient Friends
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Dec 25, 2021 04:02
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I really liked this a lot and its emphasis on fuckers that want to control people coopting their language and stuff. And it was cool to see how the big difference between Io and Zion was Io's sort of lack of borders and how there really was growth with them getting along with the synthetic folks and stuff
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Dec 25, 2021 04:38
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SUNKOS posted:What did I miss with the Analyst saying the name Tiffany was an inside joke and Trinity genuinely being angry about it? I'm guessing I've forgotten something from one of the other movies? She obviously just doesn't like CCPGrey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LMr5XTgeyI
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Dec 25, 2021 04:53
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SUNKOS posted:What did I miss with the Analyst saying the name Tiffany was an inside joke and Trinity genuinely being angry about it? I'm guessing I've forgotten something from one of the other movies? With all the other Greek names in these movies I just saw it as a reference to Tiffany being derived from the Greek name for the "manifestation of god" - so kinda mocking the name Trinity.
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Dec 25, 2021 04:57
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:One thing I loved about the film was The Swarm stuff at the end. It's somewhat of a rehash of Smith's replicating from the sequels, but it's done with real actors in a real space and it looks and feels fantastic. Some of the action in the film isn't as good as it could be, but that scene was delightful and didn't feel cartoony and fake like the Burly Brawl in Reloaded I thought it was a great mashup of the highway chase and burly brawl but hitting a really unsettling vibe that the franchise has rarely hit. I felt the same way about the scenes of the machines resurrecting Neo and Trinity and how utterly nightmarish it was, which I think that they also did an excellent job with. punch drunk posted:With all the other Greek names in these movies I just saw it as a reference to Tiffany being derived from the Greek name for the "manifestation of god" - so kinda mocking the name Trinity. Thanks, I didn't know that 
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Dec 25, 2021 05:03
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SUNKOS posted:I felt the same way about the scenes of the machines resurrecting Neo and Trinity and how utterly nightmarish it was, which I think that they also did an excellent job with. You know I've been vocal enough about what I didn't like, but I agree with you- that part was very unsettlingly well made.
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Dec 25, 2021 05:39
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GD_American posted:You know I've been vocal enough about what I didn't like, but I agree with you- that part was very unsettlingly well made. I think the movie did a good job of emphasizing the horror elements of the Matrix in a way the original only sort of got to. Like I had a brief moment of "Haha, what, why do they have giant spiked roller.. oh" when I realized that it was just there to mush down human flesh.
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Dec 25, 2021 05:49
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I think the original was pretty effective at that in parts. The jacked-in baby being covered in black dead-people juice was definitely a part that stuck with me. The unplugging of Neo from his pod in the original also had some nice touches, like the violence of the cables popping out, the sudden flushing of the amniotic fluid, and how the hovering bot clamped him on the neck to finish the process. The visual violence and mechanical horror of the process came through very well.
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Dec 25, 2021 06:13
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Really enjoyed the film, great casting especially NPH
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Dec 25, 2021 06:20
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GD_American posted:I think the original was pretty effective at that in parts. The jacked-in baby being covered in black dead-people juice was definitely a part that stuck with me. The unplugging of Neo from his pod in the original also had some nice touches, like the violence of the cables popping out, the sudden flushing of the amniotic fluid, and how the hovering bot clamped him on the neck to finish the process. The visual violence and mechanical horror of the process came through very well. The interrogation scene where Neo's mouth closed and that tracking bug crawled inside his bellybutton (and the subsequent scene where it's extracted) was also some great body horror. I think that we've perhaps become desensitized to it over time but the entire jacking into the Matrix being via a large needle to the back of the skull is great as well. I've often wondered just how cyborg-like Matrix denizens are compared to natural humans given the sheer amount of plugs around the body and presumed hardware within the skull to interface, and I noticed in Resurrections that Neo has even more hardware around the jack-in port now that the others do not. Once again, given how gruesome and horrific the resurrection shots were, it makes me wonder how human Neo actually is under the skin at this point.
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Dec 25, 2021 06:50
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