|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ok, quote this post by midnight Christmas EST if you want this gangtag added to your profile: I was out of town, not sure if it's too late, but if not count me in!
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 11:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 19:23 |
|
|
Haven't kept up with the last 20 pages or so but this seemed significant to me upon rewatch (paraphrasing) Ishamael: Feels terrible, doesn't it? Knowing the power is there but being unable to touch it. Like it slips through your fingertips Sound an awful lot like a shield to me.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 11:33
|
|
|
They also had that visual effect when they gentled/stilled Logain of the OP threads streaming out of his chest to show they tore something out of him. Moiraine didn't get a big flashy effect, shes probably not stilledCavelcade posted:It's based on a real experience from RJ's life where he was going out with two women who knew and arranged the dates each would individually go on because they weren't into each other - he just figured the dragon could do it with 3. This is another little fact that makes everything make so much more sense. RJ had to have someone schedule the polycule
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 11:46
|
|
|
Having rewatched it now, I think I like the final episode better than I did before. The first time I thought it seemed kind of rushed and I was more focused on the changes they made and how they didn't fit into the version of the story I know. But rewatching it I think they do a decent job setting things up for season 2 and beyond. I definitely still don't like the Nynaeve/Egwene healing stuff, but man that scene with them all circled up blasting trollocs was pretty badass to me. I also don't like Loial apparently getting killed (or not maybe) or them cramming the Horn in when they didn't really have the characters in place to make it work, but again I think it's just setting up a conflict for later seasons I think if they didn't already have season 2 approved I would have way stronger feelings about how they left things. But they do have a 2nd and now apparently 3rd season approved so I'm happy to let them take the story where they will. I will assume for now that the changes they made have some endgame in mind and won't judge them until it's through. I'm 100% sure there will be things I'm disappointed with and/or thought the books did better but there's no way they're going to be able to tell the exact same story that the books did so I have to accept that changes will be made. That's cool. I don't think anybody knows wtf they're going to do with Mat at this point but I hope they do him justice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 12:15
|
|
|
Hexel posted:As much of Aviendha as possible. Specifically her and Elyane punching each other across the room.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 12:29
|
|
|
Inspector 34 posted:I definitely still don't like the Nynaeve/Egwene healing stuff, but man that scene with them all circled up blasting trollocs was pretty badass to me. My complaint here is that they showed five channelers, three or which could barely channel at all (lead channeler had been specifically called out by Moiraine as not being strong enough to become an Aes Sedai) obliterate an army that had just stormed a fortification that we'd just been told had never fallen. Granted two of the five are absurdly strong and the other three died, but how do you set up credible threats when you've established that entire armies tens of thousands strong are no match for five channelers with no support? I know COVID probably ruled out a big combined arms scene, but they could have moved the channelers to the top of the crappy wall and used shots to imply the men were holding the base while the women rained lightning from above. Or maybe had a tight shot of them defending the bridge into Fal Dara while archers provided support in separate shots. Literally anything except five untrained channelers on a wide open plain with no support obliterating a doomsday army everyone was freaked out about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 12:58
|
|
|
The channeling/army scene reminded me of that loving Hydra battle in Hercules. People on a green-screen stage emoting into a CGI void. Had to be covid-forced.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 13:37
|
|
|
Iirc they couldn't get the extras to do it properly because of covid lockdown so they just had to wing it with what they could do. Same reason the blight was that weird cloned tree and not shot on their original choice of location.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 14:14
|
|
|
Khizan posted:Iirc they couldn't get the extras to do it properly because of covid lockdown so they just had to wing it with what they could do. Same reason the blight was that weird cloned tree and not shot on their original choice of location. Sure, but the route they chose showed a lack of creativity, adaptability, or general film craft competence. They managed to imply a battle happening at the wall with tight shots of two guys firing crossbows at another guy lunging through a window, you'd think they could have come up with something better then five women standing at arms length on a featureless plain.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 14:57
|
|
|
Hexel posted:IMDB update today. We have some cast for episode 2.1 o'keeffe is a cartographer
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 15:08
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:The channeling/army scene reminded me of that loving Hydra battle in Hercules. People on a green-screen stage emoting into a CGI void. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 15:14
|
|
|
Something to keep in mind is: if the budget for season one was $100 million, that's 480 minutes of television, or about four 2 hour movies. Divided by $100 mill that's $25 million per movie. A typical Hollywood movie like The Avengers costs $220 million to make, LOTR the Two Towers cost $94 million to make. Sure, television can make some decent battles, Vikings and The Last Kingdom come to mind and I'm sure covid didn't help but I think some people need to lower their expectations when it comes to epic battles, maybe the show does too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 15:19
|
|
|
Hexel posted:Something to keep in mind is: if the budget for season one was $100 million, that's 480 minutes of television, or about four 2 hour movies. Especially when we know "Covid blew out the budget" is a thing for these last two particular episodes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 15:20
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:but clearly the printed works had something that hooked people that didn't rely on cheap seeming tricks like fakeout deaths*. Yes. An inner dialog. Nix Panicus posted:Granted two of the five are absurdly strong and the other three died, but how do you set up credible threats when you've established that entire armies tens of thousands strong are no match for five channelers with no support? Well, in the show, the trollocs were never tens of thousands strong. And they didn't have to face all of the trollocs because the wall at Tarwins Gap thinned them out. Also 3 of the 5 died, and 1 almost died. That seems threatening. CainFortea fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Dec 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 15:30
|
|
|
I do think the Circle scene needed way more dialogue to really set it. We've got these elderly women happily risking their lives - let's see that, let's have a little bit of characterisation of how insane the Shienar are. Lady What'sherface is expecting to maybe be able to blow up a few trollocs before they all die, but suddenly taps into the raw power of a burning sun, so give us some actual dialogue about what is going on. It almost felt like some of the Harry Potter movies where they just show you stuff in the most low-effort way possible, because if you've read the books you already get all the context and character motivations.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 15:42
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:how do you set up credible threats when you've established that entire armies tens of thousands strong are no match for five channelers with no support? There was a price to pay https://twitter.com/Ssencindiver/status/1475766506323681291 And it also serves to inform Nynaeve and Egwene that they need to go to the tower for training
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 15:54
|
|
|
Finished this with my wife yesterday and we both really enjoyed it. It’s great to be able to follow these characters in a familiar yet newish story. Obviously had some issues but the only thing that REALLY bothered me was how Mat came off, but thanks to the thread I get why it may have turned out that way. Excited to see where it goes from here.
Wangsucker 69 fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Dec 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:00
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:There would be hell to pay when he found her too. What she did was pretty hosed up, and can't even really be justified with trying to save him or anything because the show painstakingly showed us how bad it is when a warder's Aes Sedai dies. If she really thought anyone who went with Rand was going to die, she would have released the bond entirely, not just masked it. They may not have wanted to reveal you can transfer the bond at time of death like they did with it in the books. Though I might have to check and see if she went through the same doorway twice, because she went through one of the Snake and Fox doorways and it didn't think she was dead so why would it have done so unless she was actually dead, not just stuck somewhere?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Yes. An inner dialog.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:04
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Well, in the show, the trollocs were never tens of thousands strong. And they didn't have to face all of the trollocs because the wall at Tarwins Gap thinned them out. Also 3 of the 5 died, and 1 almost died. That seems threatening. In the show they estimate there are 5-10,000 trollocs already gathered with more coming out of the Blight while Agelmar was still in the city. Hexel posted:There was a price to pay Not much of a price really. Three minor nobodies, one of whom was explicitly called out as not being strong enough to be an Aes Sedai and one strong but untrained person who got better. The White Tower has at least dozens of trained channelers. If you can toast an army big enough to overrun a previously unbreachable defense at the cost of 3 people seems like you could just hold the Dark One's armies off forever at minimal cost. They could have at least CGI'd them onto the existing bridge set they used in the same episode and had them hold the bridge while the defenses they had already shown in the same episode fired a few token arrows to imply a much larger battle E: Eamon Valda has a higher Aes Sedai kill count than an army of ten thousand trollocs storming an impregnable wall that has stood for generations E2: VVV the show actually took the effort to make her channel threads as dim as the other two, who were called up in the emergency search for any woman who could channel Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Dec 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
She could have been strong enough to be an Aes Sedai but just said "gently caress that noise" to the 3 arches.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:14
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:seems like you could just hold the Dark One's armies off forever at minimal cost Aes Sedai battling armies is book canon. There are no figures given for the size of these armies but when Malkier was overrun, the tower had sent 100 sisters to their aid but they never arrived in time. Queen Eldrene nuked a whole army by herself at Manatheren WoT wiki posted:Eldrene poured forth devastation and balefire at what remained of the Shadow's army. In a display reminiscent of the Breaking of the World, Eldrene destroyed the larger whole of the Shadow's forces - including all the dreadlord generals It's not the dramatic reach you're making it out to be.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:She could have been strong enough to be an Aes Sedai but just said "gently caress that noise" to the 3 arches. Moiraine specifically says she was too weak in Ep 7
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:35
|
|
|
Earlier in the season they said 7 Aes Sedai could stop an army. And Agelmar says he regrets they didn't ask Aes Sedai for help. Which seems to imply that they knew a group of Aes Sedai could have handled the trolloc army with no problem. Which does raise the concern of power creep. What's the point of Dumai's Well if a handful of Aes Sedai is already established as being able to blow anything out of the water? And the Seanchan can use a a couple dozen suldam to wipe out a coastline?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:36
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:so give us some actual dialogue about what is going on. They did. In the show.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:36
|
|
|
Thats just poor writing then. Why have the border kingdoms do anything at all when unsupported wizards can just hold off infinite armies forever assuming they can be bothered to show up? And why even bother having warders when you can just stand in the middle of an open plain and magic the problems away?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:37
|
|
|
There's less than a thousand Aes Sedai on the entire continent. Roughly 1/7 specifically train for battle, though all know at least some combat weaves. Nobody knows how to teleport, and there are no cars or airplanes. The chances of having one Aes Sedai present at a battle isn't high, let alone more than one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
Dingleberry2 posted:What's the point of Dumai's Wells if a handful of Aes Sedai is already established as being able to blow anything out of the water? They're not all as powerful as Nynaeve and Eggy Who came seriously close to burning out on what could be considered a skirmish force. Diminished number and quality of channelers is book canon. There's been a serious power decline for hundreds of years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
 Yeah the last episode had some writing problems. We know why; Covid and cast departures blew their schedules, they didn't have time for editing or review by Sanderson et. al., and so what we got for the last two episodes was essentially last-minute rough drafts instead of the polished episodes they turned out for 1 through 6. I'm not sure why people are so up in arms over it. Overall the show was good, it just wasn't perfect. There's no real reason to think the next season will be more like ep 7-8 than like 1-6. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Dec 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
Dingleberry2 posted:Earlier in the season they said 7 Aes Sedai could stop an army. And Agelmar says he regrets they didn't ask Aes Sedai for help. Which seems to imply that they knew a group of Aes Sedai could have handled the trolloc army with no problem. Dumai's Wells is more than just an army being destroyed by the power, it's the destruction of the taboo for using the power for violence on such a scale without holding back. Saidin wielded by coordinated and trained channelers instead of isolated, frightened men. Wise Ones joining the fighting. Aes Sedai fighting to save their life and losing against the new rising power dynamic. All against the backdrop of thousands of fighters turned into bloody mulch
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:48
|
|
|
DarkHorse posted:Dumai's Wells is more than just an army being destroyed by the power, it's the destruction of the taboo for using the power for violence on such a scale without holding back. Also the big difference there is that it's using the Power as a weapon *against other people*, not only against shadowspawn. Books 4-6 are basically about Rand trying to unify the Westlands and Dumais' Wells functionally ends that storyline by demonstrating that Rand can and will win any such conflicts automatically going forward.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:50
|
|
|
DarkHorse posted:Dumai's Wells is more than just an army being destroyed by the power, it's the destruction of the taboo for using the power for violence on such a scale without holding back. Yes, in the book that's what happens. But in the show we've already seen Aes Sedai wipe out a human 'army' using the One Power. And now we've seen the One Power used to blow up an 'army' of trollocs. We can surmise a large body count from the Seanchan Tsunami. So, I guess there could be the 'wow' factor of the destruction being a group of men, but the scale of power being used is not going to be anything newsworthy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 16:53
|
|
|
Dingleberry2 posted:Yes, in the book that's what happens. There was at most like 30 guys trying to rescue Logain and less graves then that we see get buried alongside Karene, hardly an army. Moiraine kills dozens if not hundreds of trollics by herself in that one battle they have before she decides to take them all into Shadar Logoth. Nynaeve is essentially forsaken level of strength in the one power (the lowest part but still), and Egwene isn't that far behind, I honestly don't know what people are struggling with all this for. The episode has enough problems, making up fake ones isn't necessary.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:00
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/TheWheelOfTime/status/1475858812221280258
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:04
|
|
|
ad090 posted:There was at most like 30 guys trying to rescue Logain and less graves then that we see get buried alongside Karene, hardly an army. Moiraine kills dozens if not hundreds of trollics by herself in that one battle they have before she decides to take them all into Shadar Logoth. Nynaeve is essentially forsaken level of strength in the one power (the lowest part but still), and Egwene isn't that far behind, I honestly don't know what people are struggling with all this for. The episode has enough problems, making up fake ones isn't necessary. What am I struggling with? I have no issue with the amount of power that's being shown, merely pointing out that it already been shown against 'armies' either trolloc or human, is going to water down Dumai's Well, which was a massive turning point in the books because it was the first time we see mass human destruction directly related to the One Power. And while there may have only been 30 guys on screen, it was implied that there was an 'army', and Liandrin specifically states that 7 Aes Sedai could easily handle an army. I think the concern being voiced by many, and being hand-waved away by others, is that the use of power isn't going to scale well going forward. And that can be attributed to poor writing. It could devolve into other shows where the amount of power that's needed is exactly what the story calls for, but that's not great storytelling. Look at GoT, the dragons were pretty worthless for 3.5 seasons before becoming WMD's, and then it was a 'big deal' when they start getting taken out. If 7 sisters can already destroy an army, and have already been shown on screen blowing up humans, then what is Dumai's Well going to matter in a few seasons?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:Thats just poor writing then. Why have the border kingdoms do anything at all when unsupported wizards can just hold off infinite armies forever assuming they can be bothered to show up? And why even bother having warders when you can just stand in the middle of an open plain and magic the problems away? Hell, Geofram Bornhald has a thousand men and loses 50 to a single damane pair. Magic is powerful, but not unbeatable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:09
|
|
|
Dingleberry2 posted:What am I struggling with? I have no issue with the amount of power that's being shown, merely pointing out that it already been shown against 'armies' either trolloc or human, is going to water down Dumai's Well, which was a massive turning point in the books because it was the first time we see mass human destruction directly related to the One Power. And while there may have only been 30 guys on screen, it was implied that there was an 'army', and Liandrin specifically states that 7 Aes Sedai could easily handle an army. I'll need to check that episode, but I'm 99% sure they say "the remnants of his army may come for him." And using an entire army to escort a prisoner is... well, unwieldy if not completely impractical. It makes sense to me that whatever armies faced down Logain's stood down once he was safely in Aes Sedai hands.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:13
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:I'll need to check that episode, but I'm 99% sure they say "the remnants of his army may come for him." But in that episode Liandrin specifically says "No army can get past seven full sisters." And they then proceed to start blowing up whatever remnants of the 'army' were there. Again, I'm not quibbling about their power, simply pointing out that the amount of power being shown on screen now, and specifically against other humans, is going to potentially weaken future important plot points. And while we can say WAFO, when the showrunner's previous work has shown to have subpar writing and continuity (Chuck) then it's a legitimate concern. Especially if Sanderson isn't available to check everyone's homework before they turn in their writing assignments.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:20
|
|
|
Dumai's Well wasn't the first time in the books we saw the one power being use to kill a lot of people, that was at the Siege of Cairhein, where Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha use the power to presumably kill a poo poo ton of Shaido. As far as shadowspawn, I mean yea there was like a dozen times in the books before Dumai's Well that we are shown mass destruction of Trollocs by the one power, those events seemingly didn't trivialize Dumai's Well, considering how excited a lot of us are to see that on screen, and how blown away we all were when we first read it in the books.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 19:23 |
|
|
I do have some concerns about the "power creep" for lack of a better term, and how it undermines the stakes. Most of these points have been covered in this thread like the Tarwin's Gap trolloc annihilation, but also Logain breaking out of his shield. Is it going to be such a big deal that Rand breaks out of his shield later on in the box when we already showed a much less powerful channeller do it? Yeah sure you can argue there are more Aes Sedai watching Rand and it's a stronger weave and blah blah blah but as cool as episode 4 was, all I could think of when he broke the shield was how it undermines that crucial scene later on. The bigger one, again been covered a lot in this thread, is Egwene healing Nynaeve. Healing is supposed to be difficult, and healing someone on the brink of death with a tiny thread of saidar as depicted in this episode makes it seem like no big deal at all. I would give the scene a pass if she had to draw a ton of saidar and really struggle with bringing Nynaeve back, but now they've established it's a fairly trivial thing that any wilder can do in a pinch. I guess the solution is the show just really leans into Dragonball Z escalating power levels with the Power (this wouldn't really go against the books since we've established WoT is an anime). A lot of people shouting down criticisms with "WAFO" and I'll still watch and see how things pay off down the road, but a lot of stuff they did in season 1 will have reverberations down the road. edit: Dingleberry threw up two posts in the time I was typing this that pretty much said the same thing, but yeah you're not alone in this thought.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2021 17:26
|
|
