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Hollismason posted:Gawyn is just the worst. What's so depressing about Gawyn is that he's fine in The Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. He's helpful and understanding and enjoys Rand's company and Min's and genuinely tries to support Elayne and her choices. And then he just....plunges off a cliff into being terrible and never pulls up. It's tragic, really.  And thanks for the tag, tag-man! 
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Jan 1, 2022 09:16
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His arc even mostly makes sense. He's been raised from birth with the understanding that he exists to support Elayne and his mother. And when Elayne disappears with no word and his mother seems to first act wildly out of character then die he starts making terrible decisions because its the first time in his life that he's actually had decisions to make. And he keeps doubling down on them until he dies a very stupid death, accomplishing very little after a life that on balance probably helped the Shadow more than anything. He's a kid who started making terrible decisions the second he was on his own and had no idea what to do when he started dealing with consequences. And he still arguably made out better than Galad who immediately jumps ship for the KKK who want to murder his mother and sister. Also Galad is pushing 30 while Gawyn is at least a teenage when the books start. Zore fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Jan 1, 2022 |
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Jan 1, 2022 09:27
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Verin  I admit I cried. drat what a woman.
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Jan 1, 2022 11:45
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Zore posted:His arc even mostly makes sense. He's been raised from birth with the understanding that he exists to support Elayne and his mother. And when Elayne disappears with no word and his mother seems to first act wildly out of character then die he starts making terrible decisions because its the first time in his life that he's actually had decisions to make. And he keeps doubling down on them until he dies a very stupid death, accomplishing very little after a life that on balance probably helped the Shadow more than anything. I've always found it fascinating that people hate Gawyn with the fire of a thousand suns but Galad gets a pass. Galad is much older and gets incredibly easily sucked in to the Randland KKK as you say. He comes from the royal household most closely linked with the Aes Sedai, full of strong women, and literally joins the misogynist group that wants to kill his mom and half-sis. None of this is hidden from him, they are incredibly clear on their stance on women who can channel. You're right. Gawyn is frustrating but his arc makes sense for being a dumb privileged kid.
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Jan 1, 2022 12:05
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Jaxyon posted:I've always found it fascinating that people hate Gawyn with the fire of a thousand suns but Galad gets a pass. The major difference is Galad gets to do all his poor decision-making offscreen and recover onscreen, while Gawyn's fuckups are smeared across multiple chapters of face-palming behaviour only rivalled by Elayne. What a family.
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Jan 1, 2022 12:21
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“You can do it, then?” Elayne asked. “Kill women?” “Perhaps once I would have hesitated,” Galad said, “but that would have been the wrong choice. Women are as fully capable of being evil as men. Why should one hesitate to kill one, but not the other? The Light does not judge one based on gender, but on the merit of the heart.” This is why Galad gets a pass.
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Jan 1, 2022 12:44
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Whew I’d forgotten how much of a tsundere Aviendha is. Like straight out of an anime.
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Jan 1, 2022 12:49
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Jaxyon posted:I've always found it fascinating that people hate Gawyn with the fire of a thousand suns but Galad gets a pass. There's some strong indication that hatred of the Aes Sedai (and other female channelers) is not part of the written Whitecloak doctrine. Galad was primarily exposed to said written doctrine far more than he was anything else, and he's shown to have serious issues with how that doctrine has evolved and what it has become.
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Jan 1, 2022 12:56
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The main reason is probably that people like Egwene and Gawyn actively makes her and her scenes worse, so he stands out more because he's the turd in the punchbowl. With that said, Galad and Gawyn also make a lot of their bad decisions for the same reason. They blame the White Tower for endangering their sister needlessly, and they also at least partially blame it for Morgase's reign going off the rails there. The big difference is that Gawyn blames Siuan(and al'Thor) specifically and sides with the Reds when the Tower splits, killing his teacher in the process, and Galad blames Aes Sedai as a whole and joins the Whitecloaks, which is probably the only organization in the world that is openly anti-Tower. Tear is arguable but I feel like the Whitecloaks make more sense for somebody who is just specifically angry with the Tower and wants to do something about it. However, Galad changes and grows and even still manages to do things like help Nynaeve in that one town while he's a Whitecloak, while Gawyn is just... sulkily hanging out around Egwene making GBS threads things up?
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Jan 1, 2022 12:59
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theblackw0lf posted:Verin I legit tear up every time I read it.
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Jan 1, 2022 13:15
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theblackw0lf posted:Verin May she shelter in the palm of the Creator's hand, and may the last embrace of the mother welcome her home. 
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Jan 1, 2022 13:41
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Galad has some issues with Aes Sedai, which are very understandable issues, then is shown to try and balance his various duties in Tarabon then vanishes until he stands up to the worst sections of the whitecloaks. Hes pretty much always fairly competant and doesnt especially gently caress anything up. Also its easy to follow the logic of his choices most of the time. His half brother spends ages ignoring peoples requests and loving things up because of it
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Jan 1, 2022 13:46
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Galad has big "Yes AWAB But I Can Change Things From The Inside" energy. Still actually grows and changes and makes steps to do that, which is far better than Gawyn.
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Jan 1, 2022 14:13
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Galad is capable of introspection, while Gawyn due to his cultural neuroses just... isn't. He can't admit he's been wrong without sacrificing his fragile and self-centered masculinity, and his whole identity has been built on it since he was sworn to a childhood death oath and told it was his sole purpose in life. Both men are violent, dangerous, and unmoored after having their worldview changed - but their responses are flawed in interestingly different ways. Gawyn looks for a scapegoat for vengeance so he doesn't have to change no matter who else gets hurt, while Galad considers his new outlook on the world and decisively commits to make the world more just... by joining an extremist paramilitary.
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Jan 1, 2022 14:55
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Devorum posted:Galad has big "Yes AWAB But I Can Change Things From The Inside" energy. Always wear a belt?
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Jan 1, 2022 15:10
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theblackw0lf posted:Verin You know, on the next turning of the wheel TDO is definitely gonna fix that loophole. He needs to make sure he gets an attorney for one of his Chosen next time.
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Jan 1, 2022 15:22
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Galad at least has growth as a character , Gawyn's growth is just to double down on his terrible loving decisions. Galad does a lot of things in the book that change his world view from everything is Black and White to , maybe that isn't true. A good example of this is his sentence that he lays down on Perrin after the trial.
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Jan 1, 2022 16:47
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At least Galad ends up with Berelain 
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Jan 1, 2022 16:56
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Nitrousoxide posted:Whew I’d forgotten how much of a tsundere Aviendha is. Like straight out of an anime. She's slightly less loathsome than Asuka from Evangelion but I'd swear those two are related.
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Jan 1, 2022 17:16
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rocketrobot posted:Always wear a belt? All Whitecloaks Are Bastards E: gently caress yeah first gang tag
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Jan 1, 2022 17:19
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The only good thing about Gawyn is Elaida trying to kill him even though she has a fortelling that the royal blood of andor is the key to saving the world. And because she's an absolute moron, she thinks it has to be Elayne.
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Jan 1, 2022 19:09
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I like his conversations with Sleete, and he does genuinely seem to realise he's made a complete hash of things and tries to undo it to some extent. It's just he's read too much genre fiction and thinks his role as Prince is to kill the big bad.
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Jan 1, 2022 19:19
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CainFortea posted:The only good thing about Gawyn is Elaida trying to kill him even though she has a fortelling that the royal blood of andor is the key to saving the world. And because she's an absolute moron, she thinks it has to be Elayne. As a red Ajah, it's entirely in character for her to completely discount men as possibly being important.
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Jan 1, 2022 19:33
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Nitrousoxide posted:As a red Ajah, it's entirely in character for her to completely discount men as possibly being important. Especially after Fain warped her mind.
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Jan 1, 2022 19:38
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Especially after Fain warped her mind. Wait when did Fain warp her mind. I forget that part of the books.
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Jan 1, 2022 19:50
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He thinks about it in one of the books - maybe LOC or TFOH. He refers to it as having planted a seed or something, and it's when she goes from power-hungry but not evil to full-on megalomaniac
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Jan 1, 2022 19:53
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She was having audiences with him before he stole the dagger back.
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Jan 1, 2022 19:54
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Oh right I forgot about that.
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Jan 1, 2022 20:05
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:Galad has some issues with Aes Sedai, which are very understandable issues, then is shown to try and balance his various duties in Tarabon then vanishes until he stands up to the worst sections of the whitecloaks. Hes pretty much always fairly competant and doesnt especially gently caress anything up. Also its easy to follow the logic of his choices most of the time. His half brother spends ages ignoring peoples requests and loving things up because of it Zore posted:His arc even mostly makes sense. He's been raised from birth with the understanding that he exists to support Elayne and his mother. And when Elayne disappears with no word and his mother seems to first act wildly out of character then die he starts making terrible decisions because its the first time in his life that he's actually had decisions to make. And he keeps doubling down on them until he dies a very stupid death, accomplishing very little after a life that on balance probably helped the Shadow more than anything. I've gained more sympathy for Gawyn after considering nobody ever tells him what's going on, where the people he cares about are or what they're doing, and basically just treating him as a disposable tool Meanwhile he's trying to protect his sister, his men, and the world on extremely limited and flawed information, and has to choose between the Aes Sedai he grew up with or the people he sees as manipulating and using his sister He's flawed and stupid but I'm more sympathetic because he doesn't alway know what we know He still sucks tho
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Jan 1, 2022 20:24
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Gawyn is both disposable and a tool, so that checks out.
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Jan 1, 2022 20:51
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You can kinda buy it for a while but after he hooks up with Egwene there’s no excuse for being such a dumb piece of poo poo.
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Jan 1, 2022 21:00
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Apparently Sulu is a WoT fan https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1477343606096674816
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Jan 1, 2022 21:06
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You know what? gently caress it. I'm onboard. Takei for Cadsuane. TAKEIDSUANE
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Jan 1, 2022 21:07
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Nitrousoxide posted:As a red Ajah, it's entirely in character for her to completely discount men as possibly being important. Absolutely. Also she is very stupid. So it's double in character for her.
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Jan 1, 2022 21:35
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She'd probably be quite good on the battlefield or even in a prolonged engagement - she's hard as nails and strong-willed, but.... definitely not a leader.
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Jan 1, 2022 21:38
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Gawyn doesn't have an arc, just a straight line going down.
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Jan 1, 2022 21:52
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Mat thumps him hard on the side of the head doesn't he? Might be personality change / brain damage
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Jan 1, 2022 21:53
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Invalid Validation posted:You can kinda buy it for a while but after he hooks up with Egwene there’s no excuse for being such a dumb piece of poo poo. That's the thing with Gawyn and Galad: when push comes to shove and Galad has to trust that Elayne is doing the right thing, even though she won't tell him what she's doing or why, he trusts her, and gets her the damned boat, even at significant cost and the risk of his own life. When Gawyn is in a similar situation and has to trust Egwene's judgment based on limited information, he shits the damned bed, not once, but over and over again.
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Jan 1, 2022 21:57
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That is his absolute biggest problem. He hears a rumor that Rand killed Morgase, decides it is 100% confirmed true, and absolutely refuses to listen to anybody saying otherwise. Including Egwene and Elayne. He also refuses to believe the man who practically raised him raising doubts, but explaining that things at home got so bad that it would probably be a good thing if the rumors were true. That's a little more forgivable.
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Jan 1, 2022 22:17
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Gnoman posted:That is his absolute biggest problem. He hears a rumor that Rand killed Morgase, decides it is 100% confirmed true, and absolutely refuses to listen to anybody saying otherwise. Including Egwene and Elayne. Imagine Gawyn reacting to everything in the twitterverse. #shockingiftrue
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Jan 1, 2022 23:39
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