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dishwasherlove posted:Yes, this, eloquently put. Can you elaborate on this? Been a long time since I read the ICE books and I can't remember poo poo about Tayschrenn until OST.
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Jan 31, 2022 00:18
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He falls through a gate into the Vitr shore and becomes amnesiac. Then the plot thread stretches 2 books of Kiska trying to bring him back.
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Jan 31, 2022 00:23
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Ah maybe I didn't forget, but repress.
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Jan 31, 2022 13:53
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Looks like the Subterranean Press 2nd editions are already sold out. Makes my decision a little easier, I guess. Dang.
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Jan 31, 2022 19:13
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Would I benefit from a re-read of the series if I stopped at bonehunters and its been like super long since I remember much or should I try to finish it first before going back around
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Feb 1, 2022 06:09
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I would just push on. I think one of the wikis is pretty good at dividing spoiler content by book.
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Feb 1, 2022 06:29
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I've read through 3 times so far, and the early books gain a lot of context in a re-read. I bounced on GotM when I first picked it up, then heard enough good about the series that I went back and slogged through. After finishing the series and rereading a few years later, knowing the timelines for all the characters really made it more compelling.
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Feb 1, 2022 20:38
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More thoughts about the Novels of the Malazan Empire: Stonewielder A decent book overall. More focussed than Return of the Crimson Guard, but with pacing issues. Like with Silk in RotCG, Greymane is a better character to read once you've read Kellanved's Reach. He might be a struggle to engage with if this is your first read. PROs: The tighter focus overall works better to keep the reader more engaged on what's happening. There are still disparate plots going on, but they do all tie in quite nicely in the end. The range of characters is broader here, which also helps to separate scenes out better. We're still well-stocked on soldier-types, but there's at least a bit more variety this time around. Esslemont writes a funny character, and he's actually amusing. It's not laugh-out-loud, but there's some sensible chuckle material there. The Stormriders are kept mostly a mystery - we find out what they want, we see them a bit (enough to realise how pointless their appearance in Night of Knives was, at least) but there's no grand reveal. And that's... cool. Particularly given what happens with the loving Seguleh [see my comments about Orb Sceptre Throne for my ~thoughts~ about those dickheads]. CONs: Like I said, Greymane gets a lot of build-up, but if you're reading these in sequence, you're relying on a few muttered comments from Ruthan Gudd to give you a reason to give a poo poo about the titular character. Kyle seems to be the only character who actually likes him, which if you've read RotCG, should be a warning rather than an endorsement. Speaking of, you could probably get rid of the Crimson Guard from the book and it wouldn't be any worse for it. Yes, their (Skinner's) bits provide the link to Erikson's books, but I'm not sure that really adds much to the story of this book. It seems like a crutch; and a crap one at that. Esslemont's action scenes really aren't very good here. The naval battles are total snore-fests while he mostly writes his army vs army scenes from the POV of someone behind the front line, so it's as much a 'description of noise' as an account of a fight. I mean, it's an approach to writing battles, but don't tease a battle for 3-4 chapters unless we're either going to get something dramatic or a comedy fake-out. Orb Sceptre Throne Arguably the worst of these books, if judged solely on wasted potential. Better than Night of Knives from a 'skill as a writer' perspective, but that book aimed low and had an okay hit ratio; this book aims high and misses by fathoms. I'd almost be tempted to flag this as "don't bother reading", except it ties up a few loose ends, so either people don't read it and miss out on closure, or they read it and just get annoyed. PROs: Torvald Nom's storyline is enjoyable. It is slightly ridiculous, but then so is Torvald, so it works. Antsy's dungeon crawl is also enjoyable, but perhaps in this case because it completely avoids engaging with the A-plot. Antsy is always a fun character to hang out with, so having him in his element (neck deep in poo poo) is great. Rallick Nom's status as a generally capable dude remains intact at the end of the book. CONs: The Seguleh suck poo poo, and the fact they do so after so much build-up is infuriating. They are a Peter Molyneux game. They were great when someone else was in charge, and now it's just hype and disappointment all the way down. The T'orrud Cabal suck poo poo, and the fact they do so after so much build-up is infuriating. At least the Seguleh had an excuse for being a bunch of dickheads they didn't know what they would have to do; these morons have known for centuries exactly what would happen and what they would be forced to do, and aside than Vorcan, they were active liabilities to the city they were supposed to protect. There isn't an  big enough.Kruppe. Delete every one of his scenes and the book is better (because it's shorter). How a writer achieves that with a character like Kruppe is remarkable. Kiska/Tayschrenn: Kiska's scenes are boring. Meanwhile, a character who made two enormous gently caress-ups (outside Pale and Li Heng), failed at protecting an army (outside Coral, where Kallor almost merked him), stood around jerking off while Malaz did a pogrom and Icarium murdered a bunch of dudes at the Throne of Shadow, then stood around jerking off with his thumb up his arse while Laseen and Mallick Rel plunged half the empire into civil war because "I don't get involved", and is a borderline autistic misanthrope as written by this author gets his Mary Sue moment because he's just so special 
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Feb 2, 2022 17:04
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I'm just up to the last chapter of Reaper's Gale and drat I really enjoyed this one a lot! It has definitely reached a point where there are way too many characters but I am still loving it and even if I've forgotten who a character is I'll just push through a bit and usually remember who they are with a bit more context. I am still somehow not completely tired of everyone being a deep philosopher and the random bouts of comedy that were put in were great I think. I enjoy how this series can be incredibly dark and serious but also not take itself too seriously at the same time  Next up is Return of the Crimson Guard? Wikipedia tells me it's next in my reading order (I am subjecting myself to the Novels of the Malazan Empire) but also tells me that maybe Toll the Hounds was released first? I dunno I guess I'll just read RotCG. At least it can't be as bland as Night of Knives, thanks kingturnip for letting me know that!
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Feb 2, 2022 21:48
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The OP has a timeline and suggested reading order.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:01
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Rereading Dust of Dreams and after a couple of reads I have warmed up to The Snake. But drat if it isn't some too real, depressing rear end poo poo. Just unfair.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:37
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Man I am loving the God is Willing so far. It’s like the perfect blend of action and ole Erikson pontificating. Maybe simpler in mysteries of the world and or history type of world building , but that’s not a negative here for me.
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Feb 9, 2022 19:47
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I'm a few chapters into The God Is Not Willing and goodness, I'm about willing to forgive him the whole Kharkanas detour.
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Feb 17, 2022 04:15
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I've begun my long planned reread of the whole series and a) it starts a lot stronger than I remember and b) how extensive was the rewrite? I remember hearing that there was a sort of...writer's cut of Garden's of the Moon, that Erikson redid once he finished The Crippled God. Was it tidying or was it a full rewrite because, while it's been a long time since I read Gardens of the Moon, I didn't think I remembered it that poorly and it's constructed completely differently on a fundamental, structural level. I remembered it having its big moments but having them spaced out, but it is much more in the style of later books where it's a pretty slow burn followed by a massive convergence/multi-stage climax. Anyway, I enjoyed it a lot. I was unprepared for its style when I first read it. It really does drop you into a story that's already in motion and doesn't really do much to help you catch up. There's so many quick little references to other people and places that do actually appear or pay off in later books. Basically, It was good and I'm really looking forward to re-reading all my favourite parts. Memories of Ice might have been my favourite the first time but that was partially a product of how it was the first time I grasped the type of story he was telling and realised the scale he operates on.
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Feb 23, 2022 11:17
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I don't think GotM got a rewrite after publication but it was originally a movie script based on a RP campaign that was hammered into a novel. Also while looking around to make sure I wasn't misremembering I found out there's a GotM prequel that can't be accessed because it's both on a 5" floppy disc and written on a obsolete word possessor program.
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Feb 23, 2022 17:59
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During my reread I've grown tired of the tiste andii.
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Feb 23, 2022 18:01
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Snowman_McK posted:I've begun my long planned reread of the whole series and a) it starts a lot stronger than I remember and b) how extensive was the rewrite? I remember hearing that there was a sort of...writer's cut of Garden's of the Moon, that Erikson redid once he finished The Crippled God. Was it tidying or was it a full rewrite because, while it's been a long time since I read Gardens of the Moon, I didn't think I remembered it that poorly and it's constructed completely differently on a fundamental, structural level. I remembered it having its big moments but having them spaced out, but it is much more in the style of later books where it's a pretty slow burn followed by a massive convergence/multi-stage climax. Yep, I dipped the first time I tried it, then went back and slogged through to get to the rest of the series. It's much better when all the characters they throw at you have some context.
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Feb 23, 2022 19:40
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Snowman_McK posted:I've begun my long planned reread of the whole series and a) it starts a lot stronger than I remember and b) how extensive was the rewrite? I remember hearing that there was a sort of...writer's cut of Garden's of the Moon, that Erikson redid once he finished The Crippled God. There was no re-write. If I remember, one of the publishers put up an announcement for a 'GoTM: Special 10th anniversary Edition featuring new content from Steven Erikson' without explaining what that actually meant, and then it took them a few weeks to clarify that new content = a foreward. In the interim, a lot of the internet convinced themselves he was doing a rewrite/edit over the book, but none of that ever eventuated Serak fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 23, 2022 |
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Feb 23, 2022 21:35
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Garden's of the Moon is a lot better on reread. Its so drat confusing on the first time though. You do get to see the seeds of certain things planted very early that probably went unnoticed on the first time because there is no context and so much is happening. Rereads of this series are pretty rewarding in that fashion. Also they're just drat good books.
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Feb 23, 2022 21:55
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It's a shame the script has been lost to time, because I'd be fascinated to see how it differs from the book. From interviews I think it was entirely set in Darujhistan which kind of makes it a fantasy Dirty Dozen/Guns of Naverrone type deal. The stuff at Pale was put in for the book. But then, what about the major plot points around that? Tattersail probably wasn't there, as she barely touches the main plot, but what about Lorn and Paran? Did this war-movie keep cutting away to people walking through the desert discussing philosophy with a skeleton? Was there just some random soldier-girl possessed by the god of assassins? I know Crokus wasn't in their RPG sessions - which is wild, given how much of this book revolves around him - but was he in the script?
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Feb 23, 2022 22:03
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Probably, he sounds like the protagonist an audience can identify with.
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Feb 23, 2022 23:04
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Cucked sad boi to 2edgy4u killer.
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Feb 23, 2022 23:09
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mischief posted:I'm a few chapters into The God Is Not Willing and goodness, I'm about willing to forgive him the whole Kharkanas detour. Eh, I liked the books more on a re-read, but they definitely have their problems. I was mildly amused to note that the two Tiste Andii pseudo-poets (whose names I can't remember) actually get name-checked in the main series. It's a real blink-and-you-miss-it moment. Makes me wonder how much of the Kharkanas trilogy he'd sketched out before he finished the main series. Mother Dark did nothing wrong.
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Feb 24, 2022 00:21
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Lucid Nonsense posted:Yep, I dipped the first time I tried it, then went back and slogged through to get to the rest of the series. It's much better when all the characters they throw at you have some context. I liked it the first time, but it really is just a ride where crazy poo poo is happening more or less all the time and I was just reacting to it. On a re read, I'm able to make much more sense of everything. It feels more like reading a conventional fantasy the first time. I also wish more writers tried his approach to mythology and backstory, where no one actually understands everything and everyone, even gods, have subjective views of the past, pieced together from memory. I love how that memory or that coloration of the past is used as characterisation. It's not just something some dude wrote down, but it's something that's interpreted by a character, which, in turn, tells us about the character. Something that I didn't notice is how he approaches the atrocities of his world. There's that trend among fantasy writers to glory in details of torture and murder to the point of it getting gratuitous. Erikson leaves no doubt that things like plagues and tortures and murders are happening, but doesn't dwell, instead focusing on their impact on the plot. The hobbling in Dust of Dreams might be the only exception but at least that ends up with a happy ending (I think, so much happens in the last two books)
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Feb 24, 2022 00:36
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Snowman_McK posted:I liked it the first time, but it really is just a ride where crazy poo poo is happening more or less all the time and I was just reacting to it. On a re read, I'm able to make much more sense of everything. It feels more like reading a conventional fantasy the first time. SE's take seems to be that all cultures are awful and the least awful take is to go Jaghut and just abandon civilization and live in small family groups. quote:“Oh, measure it all out! Acceptable levels of misery and suffering!' The cane swung down, thumped hard on the ground. 'Acceptable? Who the gently caress says any level is acceptable? What sort of mind thinks that?' There's a quote in the God is Not Willing where one of the Sunyd Teblor thinks to himself that basically all developed culture is slavery in one way or another.
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Feb 24, 2022 00:50
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The Neolithic and its consequences have been a disaster for the Imass race.
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Feb 24, 2022 01:48
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Jaxyon posted:SE's take seems to be that all cultures are awful and the least awful take is to go Jaghut and just abandon civilization and live in small family groups. I don't think that is his view. The way he writes about empire - particularly the Malazan empire - attracts quite a lot of negative attention because he doesn't outright condemn it. As written by him, the Malazan empire was hugely expansionist, sometimes seeming to expand simply for the sake of it. They displaced people, banned the worship of particular gods and essentially supplanted existing cultures with a kind of blended culture of whatever was there before + Malazan. But SE also puts quite a lot of emphasis on the fact that in many places, the Malazan empire improved things for the people who got conquered. (This seems to be the case more for the early stages of expansion, when Kellanved and Dancer were nominally in charge, than later on with Laseen, but then she was a pretty big gently caress-up). They got rid of - or hugely suppressed - tribal warfare, kept the roads safer from bandits, improved sanitation and did a bunch of other stuff that proxy-Romans do. For ordinary people, it seems like it'd be better to live in, say, Seven Cities under the Malazans than before they took over. Sure, you've got the Karsa + Teblor view on civilization, but the Toblakai are mostly a bunch of moron rapists and bandits whose raping and banditing is harder to achieve once a wall is built around a settlement. And on the other end of the spectrum there's the Letheri empire, but that's just what happens when rich liberals get to play in the sandbox. I think SE's view on civilization is that it is only as good as the people in charge and if you get a bunch of assholes in charge, your civilization will suck.
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Feb 24, 2022 11:53
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OK, but apart from suppressing tribal warfare, safer roads, sanitation and a bunch of other improvements... what have the Malazans ever done for us?
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Feb 24, 2022 13:33
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You forgot outlawing slavery.
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Feb 24, 2022 14:05
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And killing all the wax witches
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Feb 24, 2022 16:07
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There are certainly aspects of the empire that are good, just as there are aspects of many other types of culture that are good. I think the malazans are him experimenting with the idea of an at least partially benevolent empire, if people with good intentions were somehow to create it via literal magic, which isn't how it would occur in reality.
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Feb 24, 2022 18:06
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So your saying Washington didn't cross the D'laware by going through the Merica warren?
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Feb 24, 2022 18:11
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The implication I'm getting from Deadhouse Gates is that the Malazan empire was pragmatic. A people who'd been made better off by conquest wouldn't rebel. A people that had had entire cities slaughtered also wouldn't rebel. They used both the carrot and the stick. That's why Seven Cities has two armies to police an entire continent. It's not a moral judgement, it's just understanding how successful empires work.
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Feb 24, 2022 23:55
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Snowman_McK posted:The implication I'm getting from Deadhouse Gates is that the Malazan empire was pragmatic. A people who'd been made better off by conquest wouldn't rebel. A people that had had entire cities slaughtered also wouldn't rebel. They used both the carrot and the stick. That's why Seven Cities has two armies to police an entire continent. It's not a moral judgement, it's just understanding how successful empires work. They did rebel, and the guy behind that rebellion controls the Malazan empire in the "present". HIs predecessor was entirely OK with pogroms as well. The Seven Cities only having two armies for an entire continent was a mistake. It doesn't work, and that's why Rel can weaponize it.
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Feb 25, 2022 02:21
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Now let's figure out how Grub gets to be first sword of the late empire period
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Feb 25, 2022 02:33
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Jaxyon posted:They did rebel, and the guy behind that rebellion controls the Malazan empire in the "present". HIs predecessor was entirely OK with pogroms as well. A Jhistal priest has certain advantages in advancing their ambitions, assuming they don't get lynched by their neighbours/anyone wondering what happened to their third child. And Laseen was a moron who thought that "more Claws" was the answer to every problem facing the empire. The Seven Cities rebellion was actually spearheaded by the people the Malazans had kicked out of 'government' the first time but hadn't managed to kill in the process (Febryl, Kamist Reloe, Bidithal, arguably Korbolo Dom given who he married).
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Feb 25, 2022 02:48
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kingturnip posted:A Jhistal priest has certain advantages in advancing their ambitions, assuming they don't get lynched by their neighbours/anyone wondering what happened to their third child. A strong and violent secret police force has historically been an effective way of governing. She could have taken out all of those people, but I agree she was stupid not to. Same with the original emperor.
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Feb 25, 2022 03:09
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Jaxyon posted:They did rebel, and the guy behind that rebellion controls the Malazan empire in the "present". HIs predecessor was entirely OK with pogroms as well. Well, It's Laseen by the rebellion and she's quite specifically in over her head and neglectful more or less everywhere. Then again it's also pointed out that the first emperor never really needed to rule. He bowed out while the conquests were still happening.
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Feb 25, 2022 05:27
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Well, a magic chair that makes nazi caveman zombies kill whomsoever you please tends to allow oneself some free time
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Feb 25, 2022 06:46
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Snowman_McK posted:Well, It's Laseen by the rebellion and she's quite specifically in over her head and neglectful more or less everywhere. Really, you gotta kinda feel bad for Laseen. She's left with an empire finding its way post-expansion, the rulers peace out (ostensibly assassinated by her) just when it gets to the point that they'll have to manage the empire they've built and then its left to her to do the tedious work of managing multiple hostile nations now folded under one umbrella. She's set up to fail (evidently intentionally) by Dancer and Kellanved. She had to place trust in dubious allies to secure the throne in the first place and then what is she left with? People that see her as a pawn in their own megalomaniacal game of empire. Sux 2 be her.
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Feb 25, 2022 09:26
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