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Xander B Coolridge posted:I'm woefully under informed about the geopolitics of this issue. Can someone point me to information on why/if this is a bad take. To add to what people have already said above, it appears to be filled with Kremlin-backed talking points. For instance, she mentions Ukrainian forces violating the ceasefire and shelling a Kindergarten in the Donbass region last week. However, all reporting I can find indicates it was Russian-backed separatists who fired on the Kindergarten, and some speculation it was an attempted false flag (which would seem ridiculous except, well, Russia's invaded and all). Link to Kindergarten bombing story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/17/ukraine-russia-kindergarten-shelling/
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Feb 25, 2022 23:23
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Xander B Coolridge posted:I'm woefully under informed about the geopolitics of this issue. Can someone point me to information on why/if this is a bad take. You can start by thinking of Russian imperialist history.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:23
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Xander B Coolridge posted:I'm woefully under informed about the geopolitics of this issue. Can someone point me to information on why/if this is a bad take. The 2014 revolution deposed a corrupt Russian puppet government and put in place an actual democratically elected government. Anyone repeating this kind of thing is either a literal tankie, an actual Russian intelligence asset (whether by delusion or blackmailor whatever else doesnt matter), or so far up Putin's rear end in a top hat as makes no difference.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:23
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That weird tankie post seems mostly inspired by this article. https://blackagendareport.com/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine There are certainly fair concerns about the Ukranian political scene and etc., but it's so weird to see so many extrapolate this to 'actually Russia is the one treated unfairly'.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:24
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 Please move gangtag requests to the Relief thread, and if you can donate, any amount will be helpful, thanks!
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Feb 25, 2022 23:24
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Gros Tarla posted:They will be presiding for all of February.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:24
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TheRat posted:The entire point of this thing is that everyone is involved. From the chair not the Security Council. It seems awkward to have them presiding over a discussion of their own war. Ukraine shouldn't be the chair either.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:24
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quarantinethepast posted:Dude the number of US leftists fooled by Russian disinformation campaigns is blowing my loving mind Looks like she's read this particular article that's being passed around some of the people I follow on twitter: https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/ fez_machine fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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Feb 25, 2022 23:25
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with a rebel yell she QQd posted:Interesting, the Yemeni shopkeeper on the corner told me NATO bombed Serbia because they didn't want Muslims in the center of Europe. And here I thought it was because of genocide. Did he... did he mean the Serbs didn't want muslims in the center of Europe? Because uhhhh
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Feb 25, 2022 23:25
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TheRat posted:UNSC is almost always futile since Russia or the US will usually veto anything remotely useful. The view of it that has always made the most sense to me is that the UNSC exists for the sole purpose of keeping its permanent members from nuking each other. It literally exists to keep things from happening, so it will never "do" anything. (This isn't to say that it's even doing its job - I don't know how you'd prove that, because if it ever fails at that job we're all dead.)
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Feb 25, 2022 23:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The 2014 revolution deposed a corrupt Russian puppet government and put in place an actual democratically elected government. It also involved Ukrainian civilians first dodging water cannons in freezing weather and then literal sniper bullets, with over hundread dead, so it's literally a racist take, since it ignores Ukrainian people who actually did it for an imaginary American boogie man.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:26
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Paracausal posted:Oh baby, Milosevic apologia folded into justifiable cause for Putin revanchism. Also, she has some weird ideas about how time works, since according to her, NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 leads to Yugoslavia breaking up in 1991.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:27
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https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1497336556541067269 pretty dire framing, sounds like the next 24 hours are going to be grimmer than before
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Feb 25, 2022 23:27
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fez_machine posted:Looks like she's read this particular article that's being past around some of the people I follow on twitter: https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/ Yeah and a lot of these points don't really matter. I especially love the "Nazis helped overthrow the Ukrainian Government" And then the Nazis didn't win the election, where a Jewish man with grandparents who were victims of the holocaust did. So the gently caress what. Paracausal posted:https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1497336556541067269 It was always going to be bad, sadly.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:28
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raminasi posted:The view of it that has always made the most sense to me is that the UNSC exists for the sole purpose of keeping its permanent members from nuking each other. It literally exists to keep things from happening, so it will never "do" anything. (This isn't to say that it's even doing its job - I don't know how you'd prove that, because if it ever fails at that job we're all dead.) Yeah, sounds about right.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:28
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Its a siege, every hour is going to be shittier then the hour before it.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:29
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Just too many directions, and with Belarus as a co-combatant Kyiv is all but a border city.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:29
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Thank you for all the replies to my question
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Feb 25, 2022 23:29
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Apparently the waiting line at the main Poland-Ukraine border crossing in Medyka is 40 kilometres long. There are people who won't make it across until after the weekend.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:29
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CommieGIR posted:I've added you to the list, its done. Much obliged 
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Feb 25, 2022 23:30
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dominoeffect posted:I actually watched that before all this happened. What about it do you think was nonsense? (not implying it was or wasn't, just curious) I'm only part way through and not an expert, but he asks "What has Russia done between 89 and 2007 to anger anyone" without mentioning Chechnya, which was 94 and 99. He and similar folks seems to fully buy in to the idea that having a NATO neighbor is a fundamental security threat to Russia so they have no choice but to invade. But, if NATO wanted to invade Russia they would be doing that now. Russia has other options, they would just rather sacrifice people. The line about Russia being truly hurt because a personal assurance about NATO expansion was broken 8 years later (again, after Russia invaded Chechnya) also makes Russia seem uncharacteristically naïve.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:31
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https://twitter.com/ELINTNews/status/1497329473066311687
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Feb 25, 2022 23:32
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Just open the borders you EU ghouls. gently caress documentation and due immigration process.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:32
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Baronjutter posted:Just open the borders you EU ghouls. gently caress documentation and due immigration process. If there's one thing Europe fears more than losing money it's refugees.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:33
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Baronjutter posted:Just open the borders you EU ghouls. gently caress documentation and due immigration process. The borders are open, the holdup is on the Ukrainian side.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:34
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Deteriorata posted:NATO was never going to do anything and made that very clear for a long time. Zelensky was not actually expecting any help from them at any time. You've rather badly misinterpreted Zelensky's comments. Zelensky was also pretty loving convinced, or did an almost unbelievably good job pretending to be, that Russia would never actually invade Ukraine so let's not hold the guy up as some kind of political genius. He's done a good job, especially for a stand up comedian or whatever he was before. And he's been quite inspirational. But he's also made some huge mistakes, in my opinion. I think he either expected more from NATO/Europe in general, or at the very least very much hoped for it. And he's right to keep pushing.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:34
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Grape posted:Did he... did he mean the Serbs didn't want muslims in the center of Europe? Because uhhhh Stopping the Serbs slowed down the flow of Bosniak/Kosovar refugees into Central Europe? It's an impressively galaxy brained take. Perhaps the refugees were going to congregate at the Gates of Vienna for old times' sake.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:34
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CommieGIR posted:I've added you to the list, its done. I'm in.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:34
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FishBulbia posted:Zelensky eeking out of this with Minsk two would be the most Pyrrhic victory in Russian history I think the recognition of annexation for Crimea, Luhuansk and Donetsk in addition to Minsk2 would be the minimum Russian demand at this point.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:35
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StumblyWumbly posted:I'm only part way through and not an expert, but he asks "What has Russia done between 89 and 2007 to anger anyone" without mentioning Chechnya, which was 94 and 99. It also ignores the cultures of Eastern Europe who were afraid of this very thing and said they'd rather have their own autonomy then be under the thumb of Russia again. If you're a leftist to let cultures and people organize without fear of reprisal, to make choices for their community should be a no brainer. But here we are.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:35
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dominoeffect posted:I actually watched that before all this happened. What about it do you think was nonsense? (not implying it was or wasn't, just curious) I think Pozner's main points were that post Soviet Union, Russia wanted to be friends with the US and kumbaya world peace. But US was being an unattentive bully on the world stage and expanded its influence really close to Russia's borders via NATO. And Putin learned that the only way for his country to get respect was to be a dick too.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:35
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Cabbages and Kings posted:do you live there full time / are you there now? We are in the US thankfully. It's my families old apartment we have been renting out. My dad was toying with the idea of retiring and moving back and living in it. But besides that we have family and friends back there. I know it does not hold a candle to thoes who have gunfire outside their windows right now but this loving bullshit is disastrous for our family. I'm terrified we may flat out loose the apartment. Also seeing pictures of my dead country men, loving kids that should be in university studying, and people cheering for Russian death has been hard to handle.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:35
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Had NATO wanted to invade Russia, Putin just gave it the perfect pretext.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:36
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Zero_Grade posted:NYC councilmember coming in hot with some really bad takes: It is stunning how awful "Leftists for Putin" will impact any post-Bernie organization in the US while staring down the barrel of Trump 2024.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:36
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While the social media reaction has been very positive, I find all this heroism from the Ukrainian people deeply depressing. Not faulting at all the credit due, but the thought of the loss of human life that could have gone on to do so much more then die for imperialist stupidity is just overwhelmingly crushing tbh
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Feb 25, 2022 23:36
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fez_machine posted:Looks like she's read this particular article that's being passed around some of the people I follow on twitter: https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/ This whole loving thing is just them saying 'Look at all the people the US forced Russia to kill and all the countries the US forced Russia to invade in their completely-valid security concerns which somehow rely on invading other countries!' The 'look what you made me do' defense
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Feb 25, 2022 23:36
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biglads posted:Stopping the Serbs slowed down the flow of Bosniak/Kosovar refugees into Central Europe? It's an impressively galaxy brained take. Perhaps the refugees were going to congregate at the Gates of Vienna for old times' sake. That really is completely insane logic lol.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:36
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Baronjutter posted:Just open the borders you EU ghouls. gently caress documentation and due immigration process. You'd hope they'd do this for everyone fleeing conflict, but that does not seem to be the case I am afraid.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:37
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MadJackal posted:It is stunning how awful "Leftists for Putin" will impact any post-Bernie organization in the US while staring down the barrel of Trump 2024. There aren't that many of them; don't give them too much credit. Despera posted:Had NATO wanted to invade Russia, Putin just gave it the perfect pretext. No he didn't. NATO isn't going to invade another nuclear power. I don't know why people keep having to point this out.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:37
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I’ll take a gangtag please. But came in here to talk about Romania. I have a bunch of friends in Romania who are extremely nervous because if NATO gets drawn in they’re not in a very defensible position. Since they aren’t Slavs it doesn’t make sense for them to factor into Putin’s ambitions, but they do have all that nice coastal real estate. Doubt it would come to that but then, a lot of us doubted it would come to this.
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