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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Or seize business, property, and assets of the Russian Oligarchs that support Putin and make nationalize them. DSA is against sanctions unless its isreal
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Feb 27, 2022 06:32
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Twincityhacker posted:The only thing that set the stage for this is Putin and his racist brainworms.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:32
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Despera posted:DSA is against sanctions unless its isreal That’s not sanctions. That nationalizing what should belong to the citizens of the country that was stolen by capital.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:33
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Or seize business, property, and assets of the Russian Oligarchs that support Putin and nationalize them. Yeah, it seems to me like they leave a lot of room for sanctions targeted at the wealthy, as well as the Russian government and armed forces.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:33
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Majorian posted:I hate to tell you, but the one and only way this war is going to end with Ukraine intact in any way is through a lot of diplomacy. Ukraine's military and citizens are doing a brave, admirable job of standing up against the Russians, but they're not going to survive this thing on their armed forces alone. Holy poo poo that's a great title. But diplomacy only works in this situation when you back it up with poo poo tons of really expensive weapons flooding in from Poland and some promises to make it hurt real fuckin bad if you don't cut the goddamn poo poo right now. And even then, it probably won't (although I hope it does). Ending NATO is about as far as you can get from that. The DSA are hard-line isolationist, non-interventionist pacifists. It's very clear from their statement that they do not see this as a "words plus military aid plus stern threats" problem. They see this as a "we shouldn't be involved in this" problem. Edit: Fritz the Horse posted:"it is" and "it isn't" are not very good arguments for the debate and discussion forum, I'm gonna need more word count Was typing my response when this was posted sorry.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:34
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Dante80 posted:The above is 100% correct. It's absolutely nonsensical. The statement demands "immediate international antiwar response demanding de-escalation, [and] international cooperation," but also "opposition to unilateral coercive measures, militarization, and other forms of economic and military brinkmanship that will only exacerbate the human toll of this conflict." What does this even mean? Are they suggesting that if the world sits down and asks nicely enough or protests hard enough, that Putin will stop firing MLRS into a city of 3 million people? That if the US says "Okay, Ukraine won't be in NATO" (which is already the effective status quo) that Russia will cease trying to eradicate Ukraine's democratically elected and popular government? As a statement it is both contradictory and utterly deranged.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:35
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It's absolutely nonsensical. The statement demands "immediate international antiwar response demanding de-escalation, [and] international cooperation," but also "opposition to unilateral coercive measures, militarization, and other forms of economic and military brinkmanship that will only exacerbate the human toll of this conflict." What does this even mean? Are they suggesting that if the world sits down and asks nicely enough or protests hard enough, that Putin will stop firing MLRS into a city of 3 million people? That if the US says "Okay, Ukraine won't be in NATO" (which is already the effective status quo) that Russia will cease trying to eradicate Ukraine's democratically elected and popular government? As a statement it is both contradictory and utterly deranged. It's easy to nod your head along to while you FIGHT THE POWER so it's perfect virtualboyCOLOR posted:That’s not sanctions. That nationalizing what should belong to the citizens of the country that was stolen by capital. Are we talking about seizing oligarchs mega yachts or did I miss a turn?
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Feb 27, 2022 06:37
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Are they suggesting that if the world sits down and asks nicely enough or protests hard enough, that Putin will stop firing MLRS into a city of 3 million people? It means take poo poo from the rich that are funding this war ya dummies.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:37
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So guys, what's up with that war in Ukraine?
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Feb 27, 2022 06:38
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TulliusCicero posted:Is it possible it's quiet in Kyiv because the Oligarchs and Putin are having a friendly "chat" about the money situation and nobody in command knows who is going to lead Russia by next week? If Russia is planning on a full-bore assault of the capital, they'll need time to gather their forces and prepare the assault. This is very likely the calm before the storm.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:39
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Twincityhacker posted:The only thing that set the stage for this is Putin and his racist brainworms. I mean, nobody is talking about Ukraine's natural gas reserves that in the last decade or so became a threat to Russia's bottom line. Conveniently, Russia gains control of almost all of those reserves by taking Crimea and the two eastern regions which Russia has been supplying the rebels in for nearly a decade. Sure, war is sometimes about racism, but it's usually about money.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:39
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gently caress it's such a cringe when a leftist org somehow supports this bullshit or makes a not straight up anti imperialist statement. Ah yes the thousand azovs mean we have to liberate the country and kill the Jew president!! What a leftist campaign
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Feb 27, 2022 06:39
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KillHour posted:Holy poo poo that's a great title. But diplomacy only works in this situation when you back it up with poo poo tons of really expensive weapons flooding in from Poland and some promises to make it hurt real fuckin bad if you don't cut the goddamn poo poo right now. And even then, it probably won't (although I hope it does). I understand that, but the letter also starts off with "The Russians need to leave Ukraine right now." It's about what they think should happen, not what they think will happen. It's a statement of principles from a pacifist party. I'm not seeing the cause for outrage here. From my perspective it's like getting furious at the Quakers or whatever.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:40
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Majorian posted:The one and only way this war is going to end with Ukraine independent is through a lot of diplomacy. Ukraine's military and citizens are doing a brave, admirable job of standing up against the Russians, but they're not going to survive this thing on their armed forces alone. Barring a catastrophic collapse of the Russian supply lines, Ukraine cannot win through the use of their conventional forces alone, that is true. But has Putin offered any terms for ending the fighting which do not reduce Ukraine to "survive" only as an extension of the will of Russia? Tuxedo Gin posted:I mean, nobody is talking about Ukraine's natural gas reserves that in the last decade or so became a threat to Russia's bottom line. Conveniently, Russia gains control of almost all of those reserves by taking Crimea and the two eastern regions which Russia has been supplying the rebels in for nearly a decade. Sure, war is sometimes about racism, but it's usually about money. Putin had those already. He didn't need to send forces into Ukraine's north to secure those, Ukraine didn't have the means to dislodge Russia from the parts it was occupying pre-invasion. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Feb 27, 2022 |
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Feb 27, 2022 06:40
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Tuxedo Gin posted:I mean, nobody is talking about Ukraine's natural gas reserves that in the last decade or so became a threat to Russia's bottom line. Conveniently, Russia gains control of almost all of those reserves by taking Crimea and the two eastern regions which Russia has been supplying the rebels in for nearly a decade. Sure, war is sometimes about racism, but it's usually about money. Russia is extremely deep in the red over taking those two, even before last night’s sanctions. This is war is definitely not about money.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:40
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Negostrike posted:This is happening with Latin Americans too, at least with Brazilians. Its funny how quickly everyone forgot that Ukraine, and the rest of Eastern Europe is racist as gently caress, even by American standards.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:40
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Tuxedo Gin posted:I mean, nobody is talking about Ukraine's natural gas reserves that in the last decade or so became a threat to Russia's bottom line. Conveniently, Russia gains control of almost all of those reserves by taking Crimea and the two eastern regions which Russia has been supplying the rebels in for nearly a decade. Sure, war is sometimes about racism, but it's usually about money. But if he got control of them in 2014, why invade now? Putin is off his rocks, or socks, or whatever the saying is.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:41
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Vaginaface posted:Could the Russians make the argument that all remaining citizens have been conscripted and armed, ergo there are no citizens in the city? That is pretty much what they did with Grozny. Warned people for a while beforehand to GTFO, then declared that anyone left behind was a militant and went hog wild with the MLRS barrages.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:41
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KillHour posted:They see this as a "we shouldn't be involved in this" problem. There's been an admirable and I think successful effort by the US to not be perceived as leading a cabal against Putin. Europe seemed a bit back footed at first until everyone ignored Germany, and now the implicit messaging is that Europe is going to loving fix this. Which is cool. Poland traveling to Berlin to berate the Germans for their selfishness, and saying that was why they were going, was a key moment to me.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:41
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TyrantWD posted:Its funny how quickly everyone forgot that Ukraine, and the rest of Eastern Europe is racist as gently caress, even by American standards. Haha gently caress off, we don't hang our immigrants.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:41
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Oh man wouldn’t it be weird if instead of uncritically repeating jingoistic nonsense that borders on far right nationalism in this thread we instead looks at why the gently caress all the western governments have given the softest treatment to the Russian Oligarchs that hold Putin’s coin purse? Nah instead let’s make up reasons to be mad at the DSA. As I said, the UK could end this poo poo now but straight up seizing all property and assets owned by the oligarchs. They haven’t. The UK is directly responsible for the atrocities on the Ukrainian working class.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:41
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Negostrike posted:This is happening with Latin Americans too, at least with Brazilians. It's messed up, happening to non-white foreign nationals, it seems to vary between only allowing women/children on trains or transit to.. nothing to Poland because the polish are using family guy guidelines to determine who crosses their border. Nigeria is trying to get word out for its nationals to evacuate through Romania border crossings instead since there won't be visa issues. Really messed up situation.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:42
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Majorian posted:They aren't saying "all you need to do is end NATO and talk to Russia." Nowhere in that piece does it state that that is all we need to do to solve this war. You're right, they don't say that's all that's necessary. They also state that it's necessary to end all sanctions, stand down all military forces, keep everyone far away from the border so that poor ol' Putin isn't spooked and then politely ask Putin to please stop invading after having removed all possible justification for war, nevermind the fact that Putin never had any real justification for war in the first place. None of this is operating anywhere close to reality, on any level. Putin isn't going to stop because people asked politely, and even if somehow he would, there is no electorate in any Western country (or most non-Western countries for that matter!) who would agree to just walk away and let the invader do whatever they want in the faint hope that maybe he won't just smash Ukraine into the ground.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:43
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Trump posted:But if he got control of them in 2014, why invade now? It's pretty clear now he wants to restore the Russian empire.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:43
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Barring a catastrophic collapse of the Russian supply lines, Ukraine cannot win through the use of their conventional forces alone, that is true. But has Putin offered any terms for ending the fighting which do not reduce Ukraine to "survive" only as an extension of the will of Russia? No, nor has he pulled troops out of Ukraine, which is the first thing the letter calls for. I think that's the point - it's a broad call for peace, not a roadmap to it. It's reiterating stances they've held for their existence as an organization.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:44
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:It means take poo poo from the rich that are funding this war ya dummies. And what does this even mean? Take poo poo from the rich? You mean the Russian oligarchs that have already lost a tremendous amount of wealth from international sanctions and the cratering Russian economy? Or is this somehow referring to the Western world, whose supplies of arms are one of the major factors in preventing Ukraine from being overrun? So that to create peace, Ukraine's ability to defend itself must be crippled?
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Feb 27, 2022 06:45
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While it’s undoubtedly woefully interesting, I fail to see how detailed analysis of some minor American party manifesto is relevant to this thread.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:45
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Oh man wouldn’t it be weird if instead of uncritically repeating jingoistic nonsense that borders on far right nationalism in this thread we instead looks at why the gently caress all the western governments have given the softest treatment to the Russian Oligarchs that hold Putin’s coin purse? If you you really, truly believe this, then you're a colossal moron.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 27, 2022 06:45
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Majorian posted:No, nor has he pulled troops out of Ukraine, which is the first thing the letter calls for. I think that's the point - it's a broad call for peace, not a roadmap to it. It's reiterating stances they've held for their existence as an organization. And if those stances are dumb as hell, they can be called out for it. Not sure I see the problem.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:45
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Considering at this point NATO seems to have true info on Putin's plans (specifically the worry that after taking Ukraine he'd keep rolling on through), which neighboring country do you think would be said target?
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Feb 27, 2022 06:46
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DandyLion posted:Considering at this point NATO seems to have true info on Putin's plans (specifically the worry that after taking Ukraine he'd keep rolling on through), which neighboring country do you think would be said target? Formal annexation of Belarus.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:47
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DandyLion posted:Considering at this point NATO seems to have true info on Putin's plans (specifically the worry that after taking Ukraine he'd keep rolling on through), which neighboring country do you think would be said target? Puerto Rico e: this was a shitpost, obviously, please avoid clancychat
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Feb 27, 2022 06:47
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Formal annexation of Belarus. Hasn't there been movement of material towards the polish border in Belarus? Or is that an old story?
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Feb 27, 2022 06:48
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Formal annexation of Belarus. That doesn't make any sense, Belarus is already a puppet state.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:48
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Majorian posted:I understand that, but the letter also starts off with "The Russians need to leave Ukraine right now." It's about what they think should happen, not what they think will happen. It's a statement of principles from a pacifist party. I'm not seeing the cause for outrage here. From my perspective it's like getting furious at the Quakers or whatever. you can start a sentence or statement off with anything and then follow it up with some stupid bullshit that utterly undoes the first statement. Happens all the time. DSA's statement is better than their previous somehow even worse statement, but as a whole it's still a lovely statement that completely undoes its otherwise okay opening lines. The whole statement really should just be 'this brutal, aggressive war of expansion is a travesty and a crime and we do not support it in any way.' See how easy that is?
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Feb 27, 2022 06:48
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Trump posted:Hasn't there been movement of material towards the polish border in Belarus? Or is that an old story? That’s an old story, that group of equipment is now believed to be halfway to Chernobyl.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:48
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Oh man wouldn’t it be weird if instead of uncritically repeating jingoistic nonsense that borders on far right nationalism in this thread we instead looks at why the gently caress all the western governments have given the softest treatment to the Russian Oligarchs that hold Putin’s coin purse? They (the UK) have sat on the oligarch report or whatever it is called for years and only now are tepidly taking action. Maybe the RN can make itself useful and liberate super yachts for the people; the army all of the houses in notting hill, chelsea, knightsbridge, etc.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:49
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Formal annexation of Belarus. The great country of Ligma 
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Feb 27, 2022 06:49
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DandyLion posted:Considering at this point NATO seems to have true info on Putin's plans (specifically the worry that after taking Ukraine he'd keep rolling on through), which neighboring country do you think would be said target? Moldova and Georgia? But I think if they ever had those plans they have surely been put aside for now since they can barely manage to maintain 200km supply lines let alone thousands of km across hostile, well armed territory.
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Feb 27, 2022 06:50
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