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Alchenar posted:
If it's any consolation, they likely didn't survive long enough to burn to death. 
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Mar 9, 2022 10:33
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Javelin strike on a tank. No gore but it's very obvious the crew are burning to death with no chance of escape 
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Even if the russian military was competent, it would still just seem to have an absolute disregard for the safety of its rank and file. But it doesn't even have competence. So these soldiers are just all over the place in situations like these, strapped into metal shells full of explosives, ordered to wander around without support until they get unsurprisingly hosed up like this, again and again
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Mar 9, 2022 10:33
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fatherboxx posted:Another tank on a confident solo stroll Last time we saw a bunch of unprotected tanks being blown up people speculated that they were abandoned. Clearly not in this case - so much for Russia adapting and fixing obvious problems.
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Mar 9, 2022 10:36
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Why don't Russians put reactive armour on the top of the tank aswell. As far as I understand a Javelin is nothing more than a HEAT shaped charge without the fancy guidance doohickeys
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Mar 9, 2022 10:38
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Bedshaped posted:Why don't Russians put reactive armour on the top of the tank aswell. As far as I understand a Javelin is nothing more than a HEAT shaped charge without the fancy guidance doohickeys Javelins and the like were made to counter reactive armour.
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Mar 9, 2022 10:40
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Bedshaped posted:Why don't Russians put reactive armour on the top of the tank aswell. As far as I understand a Javelin is nothing more than a HEAT shaped charge without the fancy guidance doohickeys They have tandem charges, one designed to blow up any ERA (making short work of those cope cages too I'm sure) so the second can hit clean metal.
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Mar 9, 2022 10:43
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Despera posted:Death to America? More like death to high prices! The French used to use that in their advertising, but looks like it stopped several years ago? e.g.  "Prix Massacres" sounds just as weird in French as it does in English. While looking up the term it looks like the French stopped using it. "And the rivers ran red with the blood of the prices in honor of you, our shopper king" was I think the byline a friend wrote about his interpretation of that sale phrasing.
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Mar 9, 2022 10:48
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Bedshaped posted:Why don't Russians put reactive armour on the top of the tank aswell. As far as I understand a Javelin is nothing more than a HEAT shaped charge without the fancy guidance doohickeys They do, it just doesn't work well against Javelins.
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Mar 9, 2022 10:49
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PerilPastry posted:I appreciate Biden/NATO respecting Russia's red lines in terms of not hosting Ukrainian aircraft or using NATO airfields to send them into Ukrainian airspace. It suggests to me Stoltenberg et al are serious when they say NATO has a responsibility to ensure the war does not escalate and spread to include other countries. gently caress I thought this was a done deal bases on the last few days. What if we bought some surplus planes for a reasonable price?
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Mar 9, 2022 10:52
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Fame Douglas posted:Can't imagine farming is working at peak efficiency either way at the moment, unlikely they would have much to export. Yes, it's still the sunflower sowing season.
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Mar 9, 2022 10:53
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Chalks posted:They have tandem charges, one designed to blow up any ERA (making short work of those cope cages too I'm sure) so the second can hit clean metal. So stack two ERA blocks together! Bing bang simple!
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Mar 9, 2022 10:54
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szary posted:Supposedly the planes were to be given to Ukraine on the dl, but someone in the Polish government couldn't keep their mouth shut and the thing got out on Twitter. Now the Polish government is trying to distance itself from the whole thing so as not to escalate things with Russia while simultaneously attempting not to lose face. It's like a "loose lips sink ships" poster but for Twitter clout
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Mar 9, 2022 10:54
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Nenonen posted:So stack two ERA blocks together! Bing bang simple! Why dont they make the whole tank out of nokia 3110?
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Mar 9, 2022 10:57
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Nenonen posted:So stack two ERA blocks together! Bing bang simple! I think that's the idea with the bags of egg cartons you see on some of the tanks
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Mar 9, 2022 11:04
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have they considered putting a second tank on top of the tank? the top tank can absorb the first javelin, cook off the ammo and kill its crew, but probably the bottom tank would remain functional. Double Tank can also allow more armor assets to be packed in on the same amount of convoy space. checkmate
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Mar 9, 2022 11:09
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Interestingly, Ukraine was already awash in antitank launchers, the javelins just were specifically needed because nothing else that they had was working especially well well against T90s. Anyways this gets to another interesting point: even if the US wasn't backing or supplying weapons or intel to Ukraine 100% someone else would be. The number of countries interested in Ukraine being able to resist the Russian invasion goes far, far beyond the US and many of them are likely a lot more directly motivated and invested than the US even is.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Interestingly, Ukraine was already awash in antitank launchers, the javelins just were specifically needed because nothing else that they had was working especially well well against T90s. Basically the entirety of Eastern Europe who all had a horribly lovely experience being part of the USSR and got out as soon as they could. If you could throw eggs at your abusive ex, you would. Especially when said ex has made threats to break into your house before.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:18
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Interestingly, Ukraine was already awash in antitank launchers, the javelins just were specifically needed because nothing else that they had was working especially well well against T90s. Certainly but as we've seen Germany was having trouble just sending some helmets even. And the eastern countries, as much as they want to gently caress Russia over, are in a much more compromised position compared to the US which isn't reliant on Russia for anything. So the US support is extremely important.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:19
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a podcast for cats posted:Energy prices is one thing, but it also seems that Ukraine is now banning exports of grains (except for wheat), meat, sugar and salt. Seems that the salt hoarders in Eastern Europe were onto something. Feels pretty good to live in Finland in these troubled times, where self-sufficiency in meat, dairy and grain is all above 80% instead of letting the free market ruin everything.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:20
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Something must have changed behind the curtains regarding the Mig-29s. This is from a NY Times article from March 6th: quote:It is a delicate balance. On Saturday, while Mr. Biden was in Wilmington, Del., his National Security Council staff spent much of the day trying to find a way for Poland to transfer to Ukraine a fleet of well-used, Soviet-made MIG-29 fighter jets that Ukrainian pilots know how to fly. But the deal is contingent on giving Poland, in return, far more capable, American-made F-16s, an operation made more complicated by the fact that many of those fighters are promised to Taiwan — where the United States has greater strategic interests. In the last few days Poland seemed to be willing to part with it's Migs. But now the US is no longer interested and 10 hours ago Kirby said: quote:[...]we do not believe Poland’s proposal is a tenable one.[...] https://twitter.com/PentagonPresSec/status/1501336451195277314?s=20&t=1x99sJiZjRlDuzzDTfDcVQ Could Russian threats be the reason? Or does NATO fear that delivering anything heavier than small arms, manpads and AT weapons would be too risky?
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Mar 9, 2022 11:21
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Nenonen posted:So stack two ERA blocks together! Bing bang simple!
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Mar 9, 2022 11:23
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I think a double grated cage would be fairly effective if they’re somewhat strong. A lot of these cages seem to be a single layer which won’t do much against a fast projectile and if they’re thin metal they’ll just warp easily without deflecting the path of the Javelin. I can totally imagine a new generation of tanks that have cages as part of the base design.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:27
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Zephro posted:You joke but IIRC the Russians have been experimenting with stacking three HEAT charges instead of two (one for the spaced armour, one for the ERA, one for the standard armour) so the Gillette Effect is real in anti-tank weapons At some point, you'll hit a point of diminishing returns and either the multiple charges get too heavy for rocket or missile or the tank gets too bulky or too heavy to be useful.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:33
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Hammerstein posted:Something must have changed behind the curtains regarding the Mig-29s. I think it's down to a combination of logistics and Russia's red line. Russia's started categorically that they will not tolerate other countries hosting aircraft or offering airfields to Ukraine, and the Polish idea of shipping them to Ramstein Air Base would probably butt up against this since this scheme would likely involve Ukrainian pilots picking them up. If they'd just slipped them across the border by land without entering Ukrainian airspace it probably wouldn't have been an issue I imagine. And yeah, there also seems to be a reluctance to offering this kind of offensive hardware to begin with. To the point that the Polish PM is now suggesting it can only happen on a unanimous basis within NATO. And if complete unanimity is a requirement I imagine there's a chance of the transfer not going through at all? Especially given how lukewarm on the idea the US suddenly seems to be. ""...any decisions on delivering offensive weapons have to be taken by the entire NATO and on a unanimous basis," Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said on Tuesday during a joint news conference with his Norwegian counterpart in Oslo. "This is why we are ready to give all of our fleet of jet fighters to Ramstein, but we are not ready to make any moves on our own because, as I said, we are not party to this war," he added." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-ready-place-all-its-mig-29-jets-disposal-us-2022-03-08/
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Mar 9, 2022 11:36
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https://mobile.twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388 It might be a little anecdotal, but this was a fascinating thread on why Russian efforts at import substitution failed, and why they likely overestimate how successful they were. Long story short is that oligarchs may have actively sabotaged some complex industries because of political games.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:37
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HEAT rounds work by creating a jet of metal, essentially, which then drills a hole through the armour. Disrupt the jet even a little bit makes it much less effective. If you can persuade the rocket to detonate further out that also makes a huge difference. Given that the anti-tank rockets the West has been shipping to Ukraine are mostly designed to attack the top of the turret, sticking some "cope cages" on top isn't totally crazy. And anyway, if I were a Russian tanker I'd take it, because why not? Even if it's a 1% chance I'd take that when the alternative is being killed in a horrific way with basically nothing I could do about it. edit: those cages are basically field-expedient versions of slatted armour which is a real thing that real armies stick to their real tanks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slat_armor Zephro fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Mar 9, 2022 |
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Mar 9, 2022 11:37
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Morrow posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388 People have slowly been waking up to this with chip manufacturing because of the American tech war with China but the basic drivers of hyper-specialisation apply in loads of other industries too. Also super interesting how the Potemkin Village effect people were speculating about in the Russian military supposedly exists in its industrial base too. It would make sense - if your number one priority is not to give the boss bad news under any circumstances you'll get pretty creative about it, but ultimately you can't outrun reality.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:43
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PerilPastry posted:I think it's down to a combination of logistics and Russia's red line. Russia's started categorically that they will not tolerate other countries hosting aircraft or offering airfields to Ukraine, and the Polish idea of shipping them to Ramstein Air Base would probably butt up against this since this scheme would likely involve Ukrainian pilots picking them up. If they'd just slipped them across the border by land without entering Ukrainian airspace it probably wouldn't have been an issue I imagine. I just wish it would be talked about in private and then (preferably) executed, or not. This very public back and forth isn't good for anybody. Well, except Russia. Personally I don't give a poo poo about Russia's 'red line', but I can understand the people in charge of NATO are a bit more hesitant. I'm assuming sneaking about 30 MIGs across a border is also easier said than done.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:45
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Zephro posted:HEAT rounds work by creating a jet of metal, essentially, which then drills a hole through the armour. Disrupt the jet even a little bit makes it much less effective. If you can persuade the rocket to detonate further out that also makes a huge difference. Given that the anti-tank rockets the West has been shipping to Ukraine are mostly designed to attack the top of the turret, sticking some "cope cages" on top isn't totally crazy. And anyway, if I were a Russian tanker I'd take it, because why not? Even if it's a 1% chance I'd take that when the alternative is being killed in a horrific way with basically nothing I could do about it. I think it's more of a psychological thing for the tankers on the Russian side, in the sense of "Look, we're doing something". But the actually effectiveness is like those sandbags and logs you see on WW2 tanks, which in reality did nothing to stop a HEAT round. Cages aren't a new idea, it's actually called Slat armor and has been around for quite some time. But that was developed to defeat RPG rounds used by low tech combatants. A heavy, high-velocity AT missile, like the Javelin, most likely cuts through those like a hot knife through butter.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:46
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Kherson has been occupied for days and the Russians still don't have protests under control. They may be getting 'worse' https://twitter.com/Mylovanov/status/1501437172502642690?t=aCPLNc6QMCZDoTXpBMdRtA&s=19 According to the comments they're shouting "who are you/what are you here" in flawless Russian.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:48
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Oh no the homonazi brainwashing was worse than we thought
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Mar 9, 2022 11:51
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Zephro posted:It's a really good thread. I think a lot of people who don't actually work day-to-day with industrial machinery / machine tools really don't have much of an idea of how complex and advanced most of it is, and how that pushes consolidation in any particular industry into a few big companies in a few countries. I'm a little skeptical of all their content because they jump between so many topics it feels like they need to be bullshitting for some of them, but the basic premise here seems sound. Russia, for all its play at being a modern economy or self-sufficient, really just seems like a parasite on Europe economically. It sells oil and gas and in return gets the technical expertise to pretend to modernize. But it doesn't really develop any of the infrastructure to do so, on the political side especially because it's easier to just collect revenue from the petroleum sector than manage a more complex industry.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:53
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An Ukrainian soldier inspects a captured Russian artillery piece and is shocked at the poor condition the piece is in. Included with translation. https://twitter.com/ReddishCat1/status/1501489845495083011?s=20&t=e9aXQ9mobz6P0GqQsTc_qQ
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Mar 9, 2022 11:54
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People are expecting famine. Neither country can easily buy new food from outside because everyone will be running short, to various degrees.
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Mar 9, 2022 11:58
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Young Freud posted:An Ukrainian soldier inspects a captured Russian artillery piece and is shocked at the poor condition the piece is in. Included with translation. There was another Tiktok on the first or second day of the war, shot by a really bro-ey Ukrainian soldier inspecting a captured tank. I don't think I will be able to track it down, but a few phrases really stood out, specifically the opening - "Their poo poo is even worse than ours!" and "Watch and weep, mechanics".
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Mar 9, 2022 12:03
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KitConstantine posted:Kherson has been occupied for days and the Russians still don't have protests under control. They may be getting 'worse' That's what happens when all your specialist anti-riot thugs get minced on the way and soldiers have to do crowd control instead.
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Mar 9, 2022 12:04
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"Zwastika" is a perfect name for it. *perfect*
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Mar 9, 2022 12:05
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Polish people that are into agricultural products mentioned that a lot of wheat processed stuff and dairy from Poland were sold in Russia and Belarus despite constant slapfights and tariffs. Also PL-UA exchange was pretty significant. Right now main concern is cheap fertilizer, fuel and specific products, like vegetable oil, stuff used in cheese and other dairy, etc. I'm not sure how ready Russia is for not getting any grain seeds (or whatever's the term, poo poo you need to plant in the soil) from other countries, but Ukraine was really dependant on that. Of course there might be no sowing due to no manpower, fuel and infrastructure this year.
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Mar 9, 2022 12:11
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Half the fields look like there's burned tanks and other wreckage on them, even if there is someone to take the crops what are the chances it's not safe to consume?
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Mar 9, 2022 12:13
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KitConstantine posted:Kherson has been occupied for days and the Russians still don't have protests under control. They may be getting 'worse' It's kind of funny that Kherson is one of Russia's biggest successes to date and it mostly now serves the purpose of showing how hopeless the occupation would be.
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