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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah the issue is it's a plot point with no way to reach conclusion that makes sense or feels like anything other than inevitable eventual death for outside of everyone just losing their quirks, which....feels greatly at odds with the world building and tone for the majority of the comic. Maybe that’s because quirks are getting stronger, but the idea that the singularity will happen and destroy the world is false. We already have examples of that level of power and one of them is Eri, whose power has been successfully tamed via love care and support. I do not think the Quirks will destroy the world eventually theory is correct, because it does indeed fly in the face of the basic premise and presentation of the series. I also think that those non cackling evil adults aren’t thinking of the solution that the story will present because that’s kind of how these things work. Dabi, Shigaraki, Toga, Twice, Eri, Overhaul, Shoto, the kids from the remedial lessons. Every single one of them is a data point that the power of the quirk is not the problem, it is the way they are raised and cared for. I am almost certain that if the Quirk Singularity/Generational empowerment is a major plot point, the solution will be societal shift that the story already has said needs to happen. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 04:40
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Kanos posted:I'm not sure I follow. If people simply having kids naturally produces more and more powerful quirks, how is embracing quirks and encouraging people to explore them openly going to stop "baby is born and his initial cry levels a city block" or "toddler child awakens super strength and cracks the earth's crust during a tantrum" or "eight year old begins emitting poison gas that kills everyone within a mile"? admittedly it's not a perfect solution, but I didn't think of it as a problem that ever had a 100% perfect solution. the series is pretty clear that quirks are not inherently destructive no matter what anyone says, and that you'll build an exceptionally brighter future working with people to understand themselves than you ever will concocting crazy poo poo to wipe their presence from society. A world focused on living with quirks instead of putting them in a box would be prepared for when the first superbaby is born. Like I thought shigaraki as he started was meant to represent the quirk singularity by being a kid with a horribly destructive nature that people tried to suppress, leading to societal collapse. not because he can make rodins.
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Mar 13, 2022 04:51
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Lord_Magmar posted:But also Toga is the baseline example of quirk suppression by society and it did not help her at all, instead it left her as a deranged serial killer with a fetish for shounen protagonists. It is explicit text with her (and also the kids from the Bakugo/Todoroki remedial lessons and also Dabi for that matter) that denying people their powers and self-expression only makes them more liable to lash out even worse and fracture. Actually embracing quirks with limitations and understanding, teaching children how to use them appropriately and responsible, is the only way to deal with increasingly powerful quirks singularity theory or not. Toga doesn't really apply here. Toga's quirk is not particularly powerful or ruinous or uncontrollable, and her story is that her parents and the people around her didn't want to deal with her being weird and gross(as they saw it). Her situation is a tragedy that could have been prevented but it doesn't really have anything to do with the concept of the quirk singularity as "more and more powerful quirks are going to occur naturally until we have child WMDs". Shigaraki is a much better example - an innocent child whose insanely destructive quirk suddenly manifests uncontrollably and kills everyone around him, both innocent and guilty. Embracing and understanding quirks does literally nothing to stop something like that from happening, because it's not the child's fault in the first place. Lord_Magmar posted:Maybe that’s because quirks are getting stronger, but the idea that the singularity will happen and destroy the world is false. We already have examples of that level of power and one of them is Eri, whose power has been successfully tamed via love care and support. Eri literally rewinded her dad out of existence by accident when her quirk manifested. If you had a child who had Eri's power with fewer limitations(which a theoretical child of Eri could have, because the idea is that quirks are getting stronger over time in general), what could happen when that kid's power manifests uncontrollably for the first time? You can't even predict what a kid's quirk will be until it actually manifests, so it's not like you can prep for it. Eri and Stars and Stripes is already proof that the world is already capable of producing nonsense physics defying magic quirks. I'm not even considering people using their quirks for evil due to society failing them(which is, as we can see here, is a huge problem), I'm just considering the potentially apocalyptic backlash of, say, Mushroom Girl's kid waking up one day and sneezing and accidentally infecting everyone within two miles with Quirk-based Cordyceps. The whole "quirk singularity" is an interesting concept but yeah I think it's a poo poo idea for the manga because there's no way to deal with it and no way to really mitigate it. It's just a looming inevitable apocalypse where you pray to god every day that someone doesn't have a child who can generate antimatter dandruff.
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Mar 13, 2022 05:06
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but what if we dedicated resources to having trained professionals who could remove the cordyceps before anyone got hurt, and institutions that work with cordycep girl to control her powers. instead of hiring beady eyed psychotics to brutalize people.
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Mar 13, 2022 05:16
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The Quirk Singularity is a running Majora's Mask time limit. Eventually one of these future babies is going to be Dr. Manhattan and even if you manage to tame them and keep them from flying off the handle when you tell them that they can't have any more juice and they have to drink water, the problem is only going to get worse as more of them appear. Imagine getting a Broly child and trying to keep them from throwing a car into a playground at 4 months old.
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Mar 13, 2022 05:17
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TheHan posted:but what if we dedicated resources to having trained professionals who could remove the cordyceps before anyone got hurt, and institutions that work with cordycep girl to control her powers. instead of hiring beady eyed psychotics to brutalize people. This is what I am trying to point out. The Quirk Singularity Doomsday is still a fringe theory and a repeated theme of the story is that it is far better to understand and assist than deny and destroy. That’s why I mention Toga. No her quirk isn’t particularly destructive, but it is exactly the situation that leads to children with destructive quirks being destructive to the world instead of learning how to safely use it. All for One in particular only cares because of the possibility of Quirks being too strong for him, specifically, to use, and also because he wants to rule the world (literally). Or did we all forget that one of the UA teachers has literal black holes for hands. Which they use to perform rescue work during natural disasters. Like, Thirteen could have destroyed the world at anytime, they’re a teacher, this isn’t rocket science.
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Mar 13, 2022 05:26
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Also I think it's inherently wrong to assume that it's inevitable every baby will eventually be born with an apocalypse quirk. Like sure the highly destructive quirks we've seen have caused disasters but they've also shown that it's clearly possible to manage and live with them if you actually try. I think the quirk singularity works better when it isn't a literal endgame for the planet but a theoretical scenario if the world were to keep on its current path. In Deku's perfect world where every "villain" can be saved the quirk singularity doesn't exist. edit: ^ yeah, that.
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Mar 13, 2022 05:28
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Lord_Magmar posted:This is what I am trying to point out. The Quirk Singularity Doomsday is still a fringe theory and a repeated theme of the story is that it is far better to understand and assist than deny and destroy. That’s why I mention Toga. No her quirk isn’t particularly destructive, but it is exactly the situation that leads to children with destructive quirks being destructive to the world instead of learning how to safely use it. All for One in particular only cares because of the possibility of Quirks being too strong for him, specifically, to use, and also because he wants to rule the world (literally). I mean, Shigaraki is the flipside where his quirk activating killed his entire (almost entirely innocent except for his father) family and destroyed his home. We have actual examples in the story of quirk activations just causing irreparable disasters completely independent of whether or not society is accepting or repressive about quirks. Thirteen turned out okay, but it's possible that Thirteen's quirk first manifested at a much lower level - like how Bakugo started off making firecrackers rather than howitzer explosions - and was thus controllable; we simply don't know enough about the character to be sure. I'm not going to argue against the idea that it would be absolutely the correct and moral approach to be accepting and try to work with peoples' quirks, but huge disasters are probably going to happen completely inevitably in a world where people are born with quirks like the bomb guy from Vigilantes. TheHan posted:Also I think it's inherently wrong to assume that it's inevitable every baby will eventually be born with an apocalypse quirk. Like sure the highly destructive quirks we've seen have caused disasters but they've also shown that it's clearly possible to manage and live with them if you actually try. I think the quirk singularity works better when it isn't a literal endgame for the planet but a theoretical scenario if the world were to keep on its current path. In Deku's perfect world where every "villain" can be saved the quirk singularity doesn't exist. You don't need every baby to be born with an apocalypse quirk to have a huge ridiculous problem, you only need a few. There's hundreds of babies born every minute in the world, and assuming that quirks occur in the vast majority of them(since the story all but states that the quirkless are diminishing over time), that's a lot of opportunities on a constant basis for the theoretical Antimatter Baby to be born.
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Mar 13, 2022 06:02
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Shigaraki had a freak out over his literal abusive father treating him like dirt and then was completely incapable of responding properly to the first manifestation of his quirk. Which happened at a much older age than normal and is still somewhat weird because there’s an implication All for One visited their house before Shigaraki’s quirk manifested. Shigaraki was already in the throes of a mental break and his quirk went wild and uncontrollable as he continued to break down further and blame his family for having bystander syndrome.
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Mar 13, 2022 06:28
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The thing is, eugenics and brutal suppression of individuality isn't gonna work either. Obscenely strong quirks will keep happening and those freak accidents will still occur. Even if all roads lead to doom treating the issue with compassion will build a better world than controlling it through violence ever could.
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Mar 13, 2022 06:36
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Manga should have ended after All Might beat AFO at Kamino.
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Mar 13, 2022 07:05
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You guys are kind of eliding the actual argument here, which is that literally one (1) child with an out-of-control hyperpowerful Quirk has the potential to be literally cataclysmic. Like, some of the specific details of Shigaraki manifesting his Quirk supporting a potentially different reading than the singularity (while still in no way invalidating the "turbodeath baby" reading) doesn't change the fact that Eri rewound her parents out of existence by complete accident. The reason the Quirk Singularity is stupid and should never have been introduced is that it invites these questions while simultaneously having virtually no possible method of resolution that doesn't suck. e: and as someone who is decently interested in the "suppression of individuality" angle, it's honestly pretty irrelevant to this conversation. It's not going to fix the infant that can split atoms when he cries. Arist fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 07:07
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Lord_Magmar posted:Dabi, Shigaraki, Toga, Twice, Eri, Overhaul, Shoto, the kids from the remedial lessons. Every single one of them is a data point that the power of the quirk is not the problem, it is the way they are raised and cared for. Say that to Shigaraki's dog
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Mar 13, 2022 07:12
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TheKingofSprings posted:Say that to Shigaraki's dog Yeah like there's no real solution to the problem of "kid's family discovers he has the power to instantly murder everything if he thinks about it on his 5th birthday".
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Mar 13, 2022 07:27
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Funky Valentine posted:Yeah like there's no real solution to the problem of "kid's family discovers he has the power to instantly murder everything if he thinks about it on his 5th birthday". Well, that sounds like a good thing what Anthony did. Yes, a real good thing!
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Mar 13, 2022 07:29
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chiasaur11 posted:Well, that sounds like a good thing what Anthony did. Yes, a real good thing! Oh no he has the Quirk [Cornfield]!
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Mar 13, 2022 07:31
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Arist posted:You guys are kind of eliding the actual argument here, which is that literally one (1) child with an out-of-control hyperpowerful Quirk has the potential to be literally cataclysmic. Like, some of the specific details of Shigaraki manifesting his Quirk supporting a potentially different reading than the singularity (while still in no way invalidating the "turbodeath baby" reading) doesn't change the fact that Eri rewound her parents out of existence by complete accident. that’s what I mean when I say it’s better as a narrative device than a literal event that will happen eventually. the quirk singularity is more interesting as a metaphor for the question of what to do about individuals who present a real danger to themselves and society than something the heroes are expected to have concrete answers to. Deku’s answer is to treat them as humans.
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Mar 13, 2022 07:39
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Funky Valentine posted:Oh no he has the Quirk [Cornfield]! Our only hope is Uraraka's control over 「G R A V I T Y」. It's the same kind of Quirk!
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Mar 13, 2022 07:54
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I don't think you can just go "you're not meant to take it literally" because the series hasn't shown any actual interest in engaging with it as a metaphor. Now, granted, it hasn't shown any interest in engaging with it literally either, but whatever. e: "Deku treats them like humans" is... honestly kind of a questionable premise. I guess there's Eri if you squint, but the Shigaraki thing is caught up in too much personal baggage for me to think it applies to him. Also, Deku isn't even aware of Toga's deal, is he? Arist fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 07:55
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Way I saw it the quirk singularity refers to an eventual state where quirks develop to the point an individual's body is no longer capable of safely handling the quirk (see also how natural quirks come with secondary body modifications to handle those powers), and Noumu, AFO and OFA can all be considered artificially induced examples. OFA and Noumus in particular have their bodies break down from the stress. The doctor's research appears to have been focused in augmenting the human body in order to be able to handle this state, and at least part of the solution seems to be raw physical bulk. Nomus and All Might have this to a lesser degree, since they don't hold that many quirks, while AFO and Shigaraki present an extreme version with their Akira-style body horror. We see in previous chapters hints of Shigaraki having to learn to control his own body, and to me it suggests that the actual body is monster thing and Shigaraki had to learn to keep it in check and contained into a humanoid form. (And having muscle mass appear or disappear outta nowhere is nothing new to the series, it's literally the first thing we learn of All Might.) Kyte fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 08:10
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The Quirk Singularity would have made more sense as a kind of, 'eventually everyone's going to have some hosed up combo of twenty mutant powers and many of them may be contradictory enough to be non-viable or destructive.' Even this is pretty gross in a fictional environment. Then again we also see some evidence that some Quirks may have genetic impacts but not leave you with a power, like Tokoyami's bird head.
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Mar 13, 2022 08:20
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Arist posted:You guys are kind of eliding the actual argument here, which is that literally one (1) child with an out-of-control hyperpowerful Quirk has the potential to be literally cataclysmic. Like, some of the specific details of Shigaraki manifesting his Quirk supporting a potentially different reading than the singularity (while still in no way invalidating the "turbodeath baby" reading) doesn't change the fact that Eri rewound her parents out of existence by complete accident. Do we have any corroboration that she actually rewound her parents outside of Overhaul stating it? Her power is suppose to be a stockpile one and even at its peak she couldn't rewind Deku or Overhaul much more than a few minutes and her quirk requires touch AFAIK. So they'd have to have held her for a while?
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Mar 13, 2022 08:50
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Kild posted:Do we have any corroboration that she actually rewound her parents outside of Overhaul stating it? Her power is suppose to be a stockpile one and even at its peak she couldn't rewind Deku or Overhaul much more than a few minutes and her quirk requires touch AFAIK. So they'd have to have held her for a while? Her mom handed her to the patriarch of the yakuza after seeing her husband disappear, who then handed her to Overhaul on the basis that their quirks might be similar. Is the story given. Said mom is the daughter of the patriarch, if I remember correctly. If she was stockpiling since birth she could possibly do so, and I think they show her disappear a tree at one point.
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Mar 13, 2022 08:53
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the quirk singularity should have been a way to introduce the idea of the tech singularity to the world in a fantasy way, and to explore what it might mean that there will come a point where quirks are strong enough enough to make predictions about the future useless that woulda been neat as just a thing, less a negative and more just an eventuality instead of "I'm a mutant now because ???"
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Mar 13, 2022 09:45
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The quirk singularity is self perpetuating climate change. Nobody can do anything about it killing everybody. People can mitigate the effects short term by caring for their fellow human beings. But for the purposes of a story line quirks are going to level off or get weaker once All for One and All for One are out of the picture.
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Mar 13, 2022 09:46
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Kild posted:Do we have any corroboration that she actually rewound her parents outside of Overhaul stating it? Her power is suppose to be a stockpile one and even at its peak she couldn't rewind Deku or Overhaul much more than a few minutes and her quirk requires touch AFAIK. So they'd have to have held her for a while? Couldn't she not rewind deku because he was just breaking his bones so fast she was just rewinding that damage and he'd rebreak them before she could rewind him much further?
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Mar 13, 2022 11:04
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Nuebot posted:Couldn't she not rewind deku because he was just breaking his bones so fast she was just rewinding that damage and he'd rebreak them before she could rewind him much further? Yeah the premise of the fight was that Deku had to go into One For All Full Release Maximum Bonebreaking Body Explosion Mode because he had to destroy himself slightly faster than she could rewind him because she couldn't control her quirk beyond "okay I'm rewinding you constantly now, good luck" and if she got ahead of him she'd rewind him to before he had a quirk or before he was born or something.
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Mar 13, 2022 11:18
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Kanos posted:Yeah the premise of the fight was that Deku had to go into One For All Full Release Maximum Bonebreaking Body Explosion Mode because he had to destroy himself slightly faster than she could rewind him because she couldn't control her quirk beyond "okay I'm rewinding you constantly now, good luck" and if she got ahead of him she'd rewind him to before he had a quirk or before he was born or something. It's also kind of explicitly what changed the futuresight of Sir Nighteye, because he couldn't see a future where Izuku didn't die fighting Overhaul, and the answer is he did, repeatedly, it was just constantly being rewound. Izuku didn't change fate, Eri did (which makes sense).
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Mar 13, 2022 11:40
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Kyte posted:(And having muscle mass appear or disappear outta nowhere is nothing new to the series, it's literally the first thing we learn of All Might.) Lord_Magmar posted:Dabi, Shigaraki, Toga, Twice, Eri, Overhaul, Shoto, the kids from the remedial lessons. Every single one of them is a data point that the power of the quirk is not the problem, it is the way they are raised and cared for. I am almost certain that if the Quirk Singularity/Generational empowerment is a major plot point, the solution will be societal shift that the story already has said needs to happen. We already know some people are born with their quirk already manifested. If a literal infant has a really dangerous quirk, do you really think they can use it responsibly? Also, Lord_Magmar posted:This is what I am trying to point out. The Quirk Singularity Doomsday is still a fringe theory and a repeated theme of the story is that it is far better to understand and assist than deny and destroy. That’s why I mention Toga. No her quirk isn’t particularly destructive, but it is exactly the situation that leads to children with destructive quirks being destructive to the world instead of learning how to safely use it. All for One in particular only cares because of the possibility of Quirks being too strong for him, specifically, to use, and also because he wants to rule the world (literally). What makes you think Thirteen can make a black hole anywhere massive enough to destroy the planet? The whole thing is really weird in that, if the quirk singularity thing is true (and it seems to be, why else bring it up, especially with the remedial training kids?), the only way I can see out of it is to dequirk everyone at birth. ie. Overhaul was right all along, and you do not in fact have to hand it to him
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Mar 13, 2022 13:29
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Arist posted:I don't think you can just go "you're not meant to take it literally" because the series hasn't shown any actual interest in engaging with it as a metaphor. Now, granted, it hasn't shown any interest in engaging with it literally either, but whatever. Yeah my problem is more that the series decided to not do anything interesting with the concept. we get a few vague references made to it and now here in the final battle shiggy says the quirk singularity is hands. It kinda works in the sense that it literally combines the quirk singularity problem with the society creating villains problem but the quirk singularity problem is a complete non-issue in the story. is anyone fighting shiggy right now even aware of the doctor’s theory? if any attempt at all was made to work the quirk singularity into the story it at least could’ve been interesting, but I think the series was always more interested in cool fights than it ever was in unraveling moral quandaries.
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Mar 13, 2022 13:35
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If someone gets turned to ash could Eri hypothetically bring them back?
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Mar 13, 2022 13:51
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Andrew_1985 posted:If someone gets turned to ash could Eri hypothetically bring them back? I doubt it. The characters in MHA barely even look like Pokémon.
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Mar 13, 2022 13:59
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Staltran posted:I always thought that was a quirk thing, though. This is explicitly not What do you mean massive enough to destroy the planet? It's gravity so dense that light can't outrun it, a black hole the size of a golf ball could probably eat the planet within half an hour if it's self perpetuating and Thirteen doesn't shut it off or something. It's not like it's a meteor and it needs to be a certain size to be a threat.
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Mar 13, 2022 18:40
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Vigilantes: These past several chapters have been cool but goddamn, do they really drag down the pacing. There were several points where they could've ended this and it just doesn't. Gonna be honest, this whole thing where Koichi and Six used to play as kids is so loving stupid. Not only do they not recognize each other, they already have a perfectly fine connection to each other in the form of Pop. It adds literally nothing to their characters. also lol at anyone and everyone appearing while pop's in her forever coma. The way the townspeople are cheering on Koichi is heartwarming, but I think they should have done this way earlier when Six was still human and coherent. Having Six pose as a hero only for everyone to flock to Cruller because they trust him more would've done a lot more damage to him. I guess my biggest issue with this arc is that they keep padding the fight out so much that I expect the denouement to last for like a chapter or two, tops. The aspect where Vigilantes explores how society and law treats Quirks was great and I would've loved a final arc where Koichi and friends try to get support for Pop's case.
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Mar 13, 2022 19:05
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amigolupus posted:Vigilantes: These past several chapters have been cool but goddamn, do they really drag down the pacing. There were several points where they could've ended this and it just doesn't. Gonna be honest, this whole thing where Koichi and Six used to play as kids is so loving stupid. Not only do they not recognize each other, they already have a perfectly fine connection to each other in the form of Pop. It adds literally nothing to their characters. also lol at anyone and everyone appearing while pop's in her forever coma. ... Koichi and Six didn't play as kids. It is literally symbolism.
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Mar 13, 2022 19:17
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amigolupus posted:Vigilantes: These past several chapters have been cool but goddamn, do they really drag down the pacing. There were several points where they could've ended this and it just doesn't. Gonna be honest, this whole thing where Koichi and Six used to play as kids is so loving stupid. Not only do they not recognize each other, they already have a perfectly fine connection to each other in the form of Pop. It adds literally nothing to their characters. also lol at anyone and everyone appearing while pop's in her forever coma. It is a metaphor
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Mar 13, 2022 19:18
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You're a metaphor
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Mar 13, 2022 19:23
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Your mom's a metaphor.
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Mar 13, 2022 19:27
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it's one of the emotional climaxes of Chainsawman, but worse
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Mar 13, 2022 19:38
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It's really good here, don't give a poo poo if it was in Chainsawman or if it was better there
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Mar 13, 2022 19:39
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