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Morningwoodpecker posted:Have NATO ever intervened because of warcrimes ?. "because of" is I think pretty loaded terminology, but the ostensible rationale for intervention in Yugoslavia/Serbia in 99 was because of ethnic cleansing. The earlier more limited intervention in Bosnia would also probably have qualified by the same standard.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:16
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Have NATO ever intervened because of warcrimes ?. Yugoslavia may count as NATO intervention. Incidentally, they're still very bitter about it.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:17
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It can be difficult to visualize the European energy network, and many of the maps out there struggle to stay updated since there's been a lot of recent construction. This map from Le Monde provides a pretty good overview. Many of the places noted as under construction have now been completed. https://mondediplo.com/maps/gas-pipelines#&gid=1&pid=1
Kaal fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Apr 4, 2022 |
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Apr 4, 2022 15:17
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I think Mark Urban makes a reasonable point here about that RIA article and elite reaction. Russian elites are having their imperialist 'Great Russia' power fantasy shattered as their army reels back from Kyiv and Kharkiv in obvious defeat at the hands of their poor backward cousins. The rhetoric we are seeing is a result of the emotional effect of a very comfortable worldview falling apart. Right now that fury is directed at Ukraine for its defiance, but if the war ends in Russian defeat then that emotion could easily all end up directed at Putin. https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/1510944820629549059
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Apr 4, 2022 15:18
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Alchenar posted:I think Mark Urban makes a reasonable point here about that RIA article and elite reaction. Russian elites are having their imperialist 'Great Russia' power fantasy shattered as their army reels back from Kyiv and Kharkiv in obvious defeat at the hands of their poor backward cousins. The rhetoric we are seeing is a result of the emotional effect of a very comfortable worldview falling apart. Right now that fury is directed at Ukraine for its defiance, but if the war ends in Russian defeat then that emotion could easily all end up directed at Putin. very true. but i think until that happens, they are gonna triple down on "just kill and rape and worse to any ukranian you can find in occupied areas outside Donbass".
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Apr 4, 2022 15:22
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mobby_6kl posted:Are they aware that tattoos aren't manatory for Nazis? Remember that "Nazi tattoo" really means "Ukraine tattoo." They're shooting people with any sort of "nationalist" tattoo, such as the flag of Ukraine, for being "Nazis."
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Apr 4, 2022 15:23
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Senjuro posted:At least in my experience the tankie will at least have a better understanding of the financial and political forces driving our world and thus the source and reason behind the lies. That doesn't come from simple contrarianism, it requires at least some thought and education. They're not as dumb as a MAGA chud that avoids getting vaccinated because they think Bill Gates is going to chip them. They're smart enough to know better than to support monsters just because they're anti-west, but they do it anyway. No, you don't get to the stage of tankie without some foundational flaws in your worldview. They may know how to gesture in the direction of financial and political forces, but that does not mean they understand them.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:23
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Senjuro posted:At least in my experience the tankie will at least have a better understanding of the financial and political forces driving our world and thus the source and reason behind the lies. That doesn't come from simple contrarianism, it requires at least some thought and education. They're not as dumb as a MAGA chud that avoids getting vaccinated because they think Bill Gates is going to chip them. They're smart enough to know better than to support monsters just because they're anti-west, but they do it anyway. I think you're wrong, here. The average middle class (or especially upper class) chud isn't poorly educated. They're just racist and sexist and hate that they aren't allowed to be openly racist and sexist. 35% of college educated voters went for Trump. I bet you'd find more college educated people that are Trump voters than who went for Bernie in the primary. They don't avoid vaccination because they think Bill Gates is going to chip them, they avoid it because it's inconvenient to them, and any minor inconvenience or insult to what they believe to be the master race, them, is an affront to God. All these rich businessmen who are donating to Trump don't misunderstand financial and political forces driving our world. They are extremely similar in that their views aren't driven by any cohesive thought, they're driven by narcissism. In the case of chuds they see their own indulgence as sacrosanct. In the case of tankies it takes a weird form of ascetic martyrdom (weird because it doesn't actually involve real suffering at all, just posting on the internet). The reason why it always appears like they're proving horseshoe theory correct is because they're mostly the exact same demographic: broke-brained middle class white men. All for whom the internet provides an outlet to blame their personal problems on a boogeyman.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:24
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Have NATO ever intervened because of warcrimes ?. Libya
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Apr 4, 2022 15:25
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Morningwoodpecker posted:It's probably fairly high on their priorities now even if it wasn't before. Sarajevo
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Apr 4, 2022 15:26
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Man Plan Canal posted:I am not sure if Russia's actions in Ukraine currently amount to genocide -- I could definitely see the counter argument for both cases I've brought up -- but I feel very comfortable saying they feel qualitatively and quantitatively similar to other actions previously legally found to be genocide. It's heartening to hear that some Russian troops are refusing orders to summarily execute civilians but they still need to leave, surrender or die.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:27
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Alchenar posted:I think Mark Urban makes a reasonable point here about that RIA article and elite reaction. Russian elites are having their imperialist 'Great Russia' power fantasy shattered as their army reels back from Kyiv and Kharkiv in obvious defeat at the hands of their poor backward cousins. The rhetoric we are seeing is a result of the emotional effect of a very comfortable worldview falling apart. Right now that fury is directed at Ukraine for its defiance, but if the war ends in Russian defeat then that emotion could easily all end up directed at Putin. A big issue is that after this war is concluded, you have 144m people in Russia who have been programmed to hate their Ukrainian 'khokhol' neighbours.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:27
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The US and Europe should introduce a Ukrainian reconstruction tax. Any US/EU business that operates in Russia in any way that funds the government pays 5% of their global turnover to pay for the reconstruction of the country they are funding the destruction of.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:30
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Alchenar posted:I think Mark Urban makes a reasonable point here about that RIA article and elite reaction. Russian elites are having their imperialist 'Great Russia' power fantasy shattered as their army reels back from Kyiv and Kharkiv in obvious defeat at the hands of their poor backward cousins. The rhetoric we are seeing is a result of the emotional effect of a very comfortable worldview falling apart. Right now that fury is directed at Ukraine for its defiance, but if the war ends in Russian defeat then that emotion could easily all end up directed at Putin. Yeah this sounds about right. Assuming Russia doesn't manage to pull out some kind of unlikely victory, there is going to be a lot of public indignance and rage as their worldview of the Great and Powerful Russia dictating terms is shattered. Maybe this anger will be directed at Putin. Perhaps, but I'm not so sure - I suspect that either he, or his successor, will leverage their stranglehold over the media to direct it outward toward the treacherous russophobic West (that thanks to a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, is at the same time all powerful but also weak and easily crushed).
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Apr 4, 2022 15:31
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The Sausages posted:Reports from witnesses and victims make it seem like Russian troops have orders to summarily execute any civilians who are suspected members of territorial defence or other military/paramilitary groups (including loving Azov), which in a society that has had conscription and whose majority male population of military age belongs to this targeted category has the effect of being an order to carry out genocide. Alchenar posted:I think Mark Urban makes a reasonable point here about that RIA article and elite reaction. Russian elites are having their imperialist 'Great Russia' power fantasy shattered as their army reels back from Kyiv and Kharkiv in obvious defeat at the hands of their poor backward cousins. The rhetoric we are seeing is a result of the emotional effect of a very comfortable worldview falling apart. Right now that fury is directed at Ukraine for its defiance, but if the war ends in Russian defeat then that emotion could easily all end up directed at Putin. Isn't that tweet guy saying the opposite? I mean of course it coud but they could also go full tard and start full mobilization or something. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 4, 2022 15:34
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ummel posted:Remember that "Nazi tattoo" really means "Ukraine tattoo." They're shooting people with any sort of "nationalist" tattoo, such as the flag of Ukraine, for being "Nazis." It's a dark irony that Russia is now using the word "Nazi" the way that the NSDAP used the word "Bolshevik".
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Apr 4, 2022 15:35
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Any word on whether Ukraine will get any further military support/shipments? It seems like interest in this drying out as Ukraine starts winning some battles.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:39
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Patrocclesiastes posted:https://twitter.com/dmytrogurinmp/status/1510681928088829953 Easier to read version: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510681928088829953.html
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Apr 4, 2022 15:43
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Kraftwerk posted:Any word on whether Ukraine will get any further military support/shipments? It seems like interest in this drying out as Ukraine starts winning some battles. I think after the pictures yesterday (and reports today that Brodoyanka is worse than Bucha) there's no need for concern that 'interest is dying down'. In diplomatic news, Lithuania expelled the Russian ambassador. Also news that they sent the Lithuanian ambassador to Ukraine back to Kyiv https://twitter.com/RobbieGramer/status/1510980413153554439?s=20&t=8qNOQ28kD-wmn8EcCDxSBw The Norwegian Prime Minister had a call with Putin a few days ago and directly shared UN estimates of Russian casualties with him https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1510982484170846220?s=20&t=8qNOQ28kD-wmn8EcCDxSBw Thread with multiple sources saying that Finland joining NATO is growing increasingly likely, and describing what the process would look like https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1510899939102101506?s=20&t=8qNOQ28kD-wmn8EcCDxSBw And a pointed editorial in a Finnish newspaper today https://twitter.com/jmkorhonen/status/1510974636808413193?s=20&t=8qNOQ28kD-wmn8EcCDxSBw
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Apr 4, 2022 15:46
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Ashenai posted:I'm Hungarian, I can confirm it. Orbán said it in his victory speech. All over Hungarian news. Can the EU just hot-swap Hungary for Ukraine? Just try and do it real quick before the weight sensor trips.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:54
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KitConstantine posted:The Norwegian Prime Minister had a call with Putin a few days ago and directly shared UN estimates of Russian casualties with him Surely Putin didn't use the W-word about the specop??  Meanwhile, a bit of odd news reported by Yle: https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12389683 quote:According to Russian media, Finland stopped valuable paintings crossing the border in Vaalimaa - Finnish Customs is silent
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Apr 4, 2022 15:57
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this but someone has to be the Good guy then, its how humans are. they fall into the same traps the chuds do but tweaked a bit. they want big strong daddy but red instead of orange(well thats changing). Yes: https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/ https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-a-no-fly-zone-over-ukraine-could-unleash-untold-violence/ https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-peace-talks-in-ukraine-will-get-nowhere-if-us-keeps-refusing-to-join/ https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-lets-focus-on-preventing-nuclear-war-rather-than-debating-just-war/ https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-russias-war-against-ukraine-has-accelerated-the-doomsday-clock/
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Apr 4, 2022 16:02
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Xachariah posted:Can the EU just hot-swap Hungary for Ukraine? Just try and do it real quick before the weight sensor trips. In Finnish we call them Unkari and Ukraina respectively, so should be possible to change with minimal letter adjustments in all maps and documents. Basically we already did this in the 1970's between Switzerland and Sweden (just don't reveal it to them, they still haven't realized). Just have to be careful we don't send a million NLAW's and Stingers and 5000 Bundeswehr kettles to Orban by mistake.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:08
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Risky Bisquick posted:https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html I am a little  that Russian propaganda is actually willing to come out and admit that Ukraine has hardly any literal Nazis and they're not in any positions of power or influence but Russia has just been using "Nazi" as a codeword for "European sympathizers" this whole time. But I suppose they know that the koolaid drinkers are willing to die on the hill that Ukraine is a literal Nazi state run entirely by literal Nazis with the support of literal Nazi people, so it's not like their propaganda effort has anything to lose by clarifying the truth.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:19
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mobby_6kl posted:full tard
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Apr 4, 2022 16:22
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the holy poopacy posted:I am a little The Russian term 'Nazi' merely refers to any existential (perceived or made up) enemy of Russia. It's got nothing to do with Aryan ubermench ideals of the 3rd Reich (which itself is much more closely aligned with the current Russian political regime).
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Apr 4, 2022 16:24
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Art has become a way to launder money, i wouldn't be surprised if those artworks were owned by sanctioned oligarchs.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:24
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ummel posted:Remember that "Nazi tattoo" really means "Ukraine tattoo." They're shooting people with any sort of "nationalist" tattoo, such as the flag of Ukraine, for being "Nazis." Where are you seeing this
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Apr 4, 2022 16:24
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paul_soccer12 posted:Where are you seeing this Witness testimonies from people who saw executions in Bucha and elsewhere.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:25
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https://twitter.com/kofmanmichael/status/1510681888700215307 Really good thread. Nenonen posted:In Finnish we call them Unkari and Ukraina respectively, so should be possible to change with minimal letter adjustments in all maps and documents. Basically we already did this in the 1970's between Switzerland and Sweden (just don't reveal it to them, they still haven't realized). Hahahahahaha
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Apr 4, 2022 16:28
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Abner Assington posted:Yeah, let's not. Sorry, forgort this was the war thread!
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Apr 4, 2022 16:29
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paul_soccer12 posted:Where are you seeing this Mentioned here: Hannibal Rex posted:It's pretty clear now what Russian denazification orders look like. The Translation posted:I had money with me, a watch. Everyone was taken away, like the rest, that is, they were simply robbed. They knew some of the people, checked the documents and, if a person participated in the ATO (as Ukraine calls the period of hostilities in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions from 2014 to 2018) or was recorded in the theater, they were immediately shot. They also checked tattoos, “Nazikov” they were looking. In fact, even those who had the official coat of arms of Ukraine were shot.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:31
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photos of corpses
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mobby_6kl posted:Sorry, forgort this was the war thread! Defend your right to bear slurs elsewhere.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:33
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Dapper_Swindler posted:obviously not Zinn but has Chomsky said anything lately? he seems to be ok with various genocides or at least excusing them when they are happening. This is a bizarre statement. Chomsky has said many things in his life in many articles and interviews, but you just need to skim his recent interviews to see him calling Putin, in more articulate terms, a criminal and a fool. Here's a direct quote from him, "Moral outrage over Russian crimes in Ukraine is understandable and justified." "The invasion is direct criminal aggression — which, indeed, we can compare with the Nazi invasion of Poland" From that, you somehow get, "Chomsky is OK with genocides"? Nice one.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:33
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Xachariah posted:Mentioned here: Thanks. They're referring to the rurikid trident right? e: idiots like to accuse chomsky of genocide denial/apologism because he pointed out that the US was supporting and enabling the Indonesian genocide in East Timor around the same time Cambodia was all over the mainstream news, while East Timor got barely any mention in the press at all at the time. They somehow turn pointing out this hypocrisy into "chomsky likes genocide denial because he is a tankie" paul_soccer12 fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Apr 4, 2022 |
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Apr 4, 2022 16:34
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Aertuun posted:This is a bizarre statement. Chomsky has said many things in his life in many articles and interviews, but you just need to skim his recent interviews to see him calling Putin, in more articulate terms, a criminal and a fool. You may not be familiar with Chomsky’s broader output.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:41
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Xachariah posted:Mentioned here: Yeah, that's where I saw it. Although my memory swapped "flag" with "coat of arms."
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Apr 4, 2022 16:41
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DandyLion posted:The Russian term 'Nazi' merely refers to any existential (perceived or made up) enemy of Russia. It's got nothing to do with Aryan ubermench ideals of the 3rd Reich (which itself is much more closely aligned with the current Russian political regime). Instead I think a lot of people just take it at face value because it's being aimed at the people they already dislike.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:43
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paul_soccer12 posted:Thanks. They're referring to the rurikid trident right? Yes, they are.
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Apr 4, 2022 16:45
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paul_soccer12 posted:e: idiots like to accuse chomsky of genocide denial/apologism because he pointed out that the US was supporting and enabling the Indonesian genocide in East Timor around the same time Cambodia was all over the mainstream news, while East Timor got barely any mention in the press at all at the time. Oh, can you point to that in his Distortions at the Forth Hand article please?
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Apr 4, 2022 16:48
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