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the thing that makes chomsky's latest comments shitlordery instead of buffonish nonsense isn't his buffonish assumption that there is a negotiated peace available. that's just casual buffonery at this point that can be excused. it's his argument that weapons for ukraine should be specifically throttled to avoid them actually doing anything to allow ukraine to resist so that ukraine is forced to accept the (non-existent) peace terms offered by russia that crosses from buffonery to shitlordery, his demands that the defense aid be "carefully scaled" basically "sure yes, ukraine is in the right, it is acceptable to say that and give them some helmets, but the instant you give them real weapons you're escalating the situation and preventing the negotiated peace!!!!!" is the problem
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Apr 17, 2022 18:37
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It is a sad reality that we've seen conflict continue to rage in areas where Euro-ethnonationalism persists, but there is no collective management of state behavior. I hope this is a wake up call about the future threats posed by resurgent national regimes in Hungary and Poland. They cannot coexist with a peaceful Europe. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 18:41
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FishBulbia posted:Yeah I know. You conceded to neutrality and allowed tyranny to win. The Soviets even managed to ban books in Finland. It's a fate worse than Korea and Vietnam. You just cannot make a single good faith post ever, no matter the subject. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 18:43
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evilweasel posted:the thing that makes chomsky's latest comments shitlordery instead of buffonish nonsense isn't his buffonish assumption that there is a negotiated peace available. that's just casual buffonery at this point that can be excused. The other problem is that the only "negotiated peace" that Putin has proposed is "Ukraine surrenders and cedes their territory." Chomsky is either naive in not understanding that, or deliberately flogging Putin's line.
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Apr 17, 2022 18:43
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evilweasel posted:the thing that makes chomsky's latest comments shitlordery instead of buffonish nonsense isn't his buffonish assumption that there is a negotiated peace available. that's just casual buffonery at this point that can be excused. Also the racist "fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian" quote, that ignores that it's the Ukrainians making the choice. And of course, we can all figure out what terms will be if Ukraine runs out of ammunition, but the "intellectural" can't.
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Apr 17, 2022 18:45
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bad_fmr posted:You just cannot make a single good faith post ever, no matter the subject. Obviously being on the periphery of a super power conflict is a poo poo place to be. But can you say that Finland, by essentially surrendering its foreign policy to the Soviets, came out worse than Soviet occupied Europe? Then places that became arenas for proxy conflict? Korea? Vietnam, Afghanistan?
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Apr 17, 2022 18:46
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Ukraine gaining some ground back near Kharkiv: https://t.me/kharkivlife/35661 ЗСУ контрнаступают — освободили населенные пункты Базалиевка, Лебяже, часть Кутузовки, в районе Малой Рогани продвинулись к востоку — Синегубов ZSU counterattack - liberated the settlements of Bazalievka, Lebyazhe, part of Kutuzovka, in the area of Malaya Rogan moved to the east - Sinegubov
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Apr 17, 2022 18:53
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orcane posted:It wasn't even about joining the EU, it was only an association agreement and realistically Ukraine wouldn't have been considered ready for the actual EU for decades. But even that was considered an unacceptable rapprochement. Yeah, you're correct. I went back and looked it up after posting, realized it was much less than EU membership on the table, and edited my post to reflect that. As you say this just makes it even more obvious that the Finland/Swedish level of independence was never on the table.
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Apr 17, 2022 18:56
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FishBulbia posted:Obviously being on the periphery of a super power conflict is a poo poo place to be. But can you say that Finland, by essentially surrendering its foreign policy to the Soviets, came out worse than Soviet occupied Europe? Then places that became arenas for proxy conflict? Korea? Vietnam, Afghanistan? You keep shitposting about things that you don't have any understanding of. Which is fine, I suppose, but it's just strange, this desire of American goons to chip in on how Russia's neighbours should handle their foreign and domestic politics as if we don't have any experience of our own or a much higher stake in the game.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:06
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Here's a much better analysis of the politics (picking out the highlights); https://twitter.com/drfarls/status/1515672090774544388 https://twitter.com/drfarls/status/1515672648914767874 https://twitter.com/drfarls/status/1515675227912556558 https://twitter.com/drfarls/status/1515719074323521539
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Apr 17, 2022 19:08
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Deteriorata posted:Ukraine gaining some ground back near Kharkiv: Russia continues to bombard Kharkiv, so pushing their artillery back is very beneficial.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:08
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Nenonen posted:You keep shitposting about things that you don't have any understanding of. Which is fine, I suppose, but it's just strange, this desire of American goons to chip in on how Russia's neighbours should handle their foreign and domestic politics as if we don't have any experience of our own or a much higher stake in the game. I'm not American and I'm not saying anything about current FP. The guile of someone to suggest life in Finland was in a worse position than the Warsaw pact
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Apr 17, 2022 19:10
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FishBulbia posted:Obviously being on the periphery of a super power conflict is a poo poo place to be. But can you say that Finland, by essentially surrendering its foreign policy to the Soviets, came out worse than Soviet occupied Europe? Then places that became arenas for proxy conflict? Korea? Vietnam, Afghanistan? Yeah gently caress off. The neutrality of Finland came at the point of a bayonet. It is not a stable or desiralable model in any way, which was the original point.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:12
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OddObserver posted:Also the racist "fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian" quote, that ignores that it's the Ukrainians making the choice. And of course, we can all figure out what terms will be if Ukraine runs out of ammunition, but the "intellectural" can't. One Slavic nation fighting another Slavic nation is racist how? Furthermore, the "last Ukrainian" quote was coined by Chas Freeman, a US career diplomat and Chomsky requoted it. And in the context of the interview Freeman did on March 24 it's quite appropriate and worth a read, instead of accusing Chomsky of racism. quote:But on the question of what Mr. Zelenskyy was told, I think this is remarkably cynical, or perhaps it was naïve and unrealistic on the part of leaders in the West. Zelenskyy is obviously a very intelligent man, and he saw what the consequences of being put in what he called limbo would be: namely, Ukraine would be hung out to dry. And the West was basically saying, ‘We will fight to the last Ukrainian for Ukrainian independence,’ which essentially remains our stand. It’s pretty cynical, despite all the patriotic fervor. And I’d add, I have heard, I know people who have been attempting to be objective about this, and they’re immediately accused of being Russian agents. Or let us just say, the price of speaking on this subject is to join the pom-pom girls in a frenzy of support for our position, and if you’re not part of the chorus, you’re not allowed to say anything, and you can’t sing. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 19:13
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bad_fmr posted:Yeah gently caress off. The neutrality of Finland came at the point of a bayonet. It is not a stable or desiralable model in any way, which was the original point. Wow, being in between a super power conflict is a bad place to be.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:15
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Good thing Russia isn't a superpower then.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:16
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Hammerstein posted:One Slavic nation fighting another Slavic nation is racist how? It's racist because it implies that Ukrainians are incapable of fighting without western aid basically. Orientalist more than racist perhaps.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:16
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Alchenar posted:Good thing Russia isn't a superpower then. We're talking about the Soviet Union. Russia was part of the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union was very powerful compared to Russia. It had a big fleet and a lot of tanks, it also developed very powerful atomic weapons in the late 1940s. Finland, and all of the countries between Nazi Germany and the Soviet pre-MR pact borders were comparatively not very strong, and were in a bad spot after 1945. The powerful countries after the war tried to agree on a settlement in Europe after the war. A lot of the conflicts in Europe in this period were caused by the Soviets pushing on the Western Allies sphere of influence. During this period, the Soviets were more powerful than any other force in Europe. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 19:16
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Warbadger posted:Worth pointing out that Sweden's and to some degree Finland's "neutrality" for the past 30 years involved very tight military cooperation with NATO, a military geared specifically toward defense against Russian invasion, and a deep economic relationship with Western Europe. Also EU membership, with its own security agreements... with most of NATO. I have a feeling having strong military alliances contributed to the lack of little green men setting up totally independent Russian fiefdoms. Actually Sweden's neutrality was entirely attributable to the greatest weapon man has ever known: 
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Apr 17, 2022 19:21
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FishBulbia posted:It's racist because it implies that Ukrainians are incapable of fighting without western aid basically. Orientalist more than racist perhaps. Well if that's how you want to interpret it. I'm pretty sure that Ukraine would be in a much worse spot without Western recon, weapons, money, training, intelligence etc...and that's a simple fact and not racist. And for orientalist bias you're in the wrong part of the world.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:23
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Hammerstein posted:Well if that's how you want to interpret it. Orientalism applies to anything deemed "eastern" by Western Europe. It absolutely applies to the Balkans and Eastern Europe. There is an orientalist idea that the "East" exists in steady stagnation until outside powers mess with it, that events are dictated by the Western powers affecting the "East."
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Apr 17, 2022 19:26
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Actually Sweden's neutrality was entirely attributable to the greatest weapon man has ever known: Can you get past the Swedish STANK?
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Apr 17, 2022 19:30
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FishBulbia posted:Orientalism applies to anything deemed "eastern" by Western Europe. It absolutely applies to the Balkans and Eastern Europe. No, it does not. In academics it applies to the Middle East, the Arab and Asian regions. I never heard anyone refer to the Balkans as "orientalist" and I live in the city that's considered the gateway to SE Europe.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:30
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biglads posted:Can you get past the Swedish STANK? The Stank fires 105mm surströmming cans. It was discontiniued for warcrimes allegations.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:31
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PITT posted:I could give two figs what some moron espouses about Mexico or whatever war fantasy. I take issue with you personally and your constant bludgeoning of anything you don't like with some derogatory Americans hurr durr cudgel. Its a common thread with your posting and when you swing it around wildly you are going to see collateral damage and be called out for your prejudice. For someone who is supposedly indifferent about the Mexico-China hypothetical, you sure sound angry that I have dared to characterise it as an Americentric argument most frequently brought up by Americans.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:32
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FishBulbia posted:Yeah I know. You conceded to neutrality and allowed tyranny to win. The Soviets even managed to ban books in Finland. It's a fate worse than Korea blahblahblah You do realize that South korea was a military dictatorship to 1990s right? And that on human development index Finland has been sitting on the top tens for Idk, since 1970s? This is one hell of a red-hot take, and requires absolutely bonkers interpretation of ”fate worse than Vietnam.”
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Apr 17, 2022 19:33
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FishBulbia posted:It's racist because it implies that Ukrainians are incapable of fighting without western aid basically. Orientalist more than racist perhaps. On a mid to long timescale, they are. They have the will to fight, and have proven themselves to be excellent fighters. If my (safe, western) home town were invaded tomorrow and I could choose any armed forces in the world to help me stay alive, I would choose the Ukrainians. They have been, in the truest sense of the word, awesome. However, the resources they have are finite and Russia has, for all their failures, made a point of targeting their military industry. They cannot independently produce the sort of heavy weaponry required to beat back even this clown car Russian army. Their ability to fight beyond say a year absolutely depends on western aid, because even the greatest fighters need weapons in their hands.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:35
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biglads posted:Can you get past the Swedish STANK? *STANK Pops Surströmming grenades and retreats as the enemy and their missiles vomit uncontrollably*
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Apr 17, 2022 19:35
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Nenonen posted:it's just strange, this desire of American goons to chip in on how Russia's neighbours should handle their foreign and domestic politics as if we don't have any experience of our own or a much higher stake in the game. If you want American weapons, you have to accept American takes. That's called participating in the rules-based international order.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:41
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Sorry not sorry for breaking up pedantic derails https://mobile.twitter.com/CanadianUkrain1/status/1515753965719281677
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Apr 17, 2022 19:42
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"England is prepared to fight Germany to the last Frenchman" was popularized as a barb during the occupation of France by pro-collaboration French and German occupation authorities, but I suspect Chomsky was intending to paraphrase the (perhaps more famous) later paraphrase by the Egyptian foreign minister (and later UN Secretary General) Boutros-Ghali on the Algerian attitude toward Egyptian lives in confronting Israel the former would not have, uh, perhaps the best connotations
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Apr 17, 2022 19:46
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Actually Sweden's neutrality was entirely attributable to the greatest weapon man has ever known: fixt
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Apr 17, 2022 19:49
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Nenonen posted:You keep shitposting about things that you don't have any understanding of. Which is fine, I suppose, but it's just strange, this desire of American goons to chip in on how Russia's neighbours should handle their foreign and domestic politics as if we don't have any experience of our own or a much higher stake in the game. Actually I think you'll find that the existential threat posed to my worldview that the US and NATO are wrong and bad in every situation is equivalent to the existential threat to your safety and security. Sorry but I don't make the rules.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:50
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hoping that neutrality would please the Soviets sufficiently was always a bit of a gamble; it paid off for Leopold Figl in the Austrian State Treaty of 1955, but Imre Nagy tried it the very next year right next door, and everyone knows how that shook out arguably for reasons that had little to do with Hungary itself and more with rising challengers for prestige and ideological dominance within the rest of the communist bloc
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Apr 17, 2022 19:53
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Hammerstein posted:One Slavic nation fighting another Slavic nation is racist how? The problematic part is not in stating that the US/Europe/allies make a significant difference how well Ukraine can defend themselves - the problem is to say, "but you should not do what Ukraine asks of you, because you should know it is better for *Ukraine* if you do not". That is "the white man's burden" phrased differently - but with the same core of "do not give these people what they ask of you, because it is bad for them, you should know it is bad for them, and it is your responsibility to choose on their behalf". And this is a case of racism or at the very least exceptionalism. It is thrusting a 'tough love' dogma on the ones able and willing to help someone in need. Assisting Ukraine may prolong the war - but giving someone what they ask is not wrong. Giving a potential rape victim the tools to fight back is not wrong, if that is what the victim wants - even if wielding that weapon risks turning rape into murder. Making choices on behalf of victims is wrong. Withholding aid because they must not choose the manner of their suffering or struggle is wrong. Chomsky is advocating for Ukraine to be treated as a second-class nation that does not know what is best for itself. Whether their resistance and the aid they seek is actually the rational choice is not especially relevant. Their right to make that choice as a people and a nation is relevant. Withholding assistance that one believes endangers the world at large (ie no-fly zone) is different. That refusal is not based on making better choices on behalf of Ukraine, but considerations beyond Ukraine. And one could also make that in argument *in favor* of assisting Ukraine: That the consequences of not helping is a regression of international order towards 'might makes right' and validating irredentism. So we have a case where it is right to assist Ukraine in their choice of action, and it is right to oppose the Russian invasion as well. These are in addition to the rational motives of self-interest which also apply. Chomsky really doesn't make a strong case against assisting Ukraine. His arguments boil down to "I know better than Ukraine what is best for them".
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Apr 17, 2022 19:57
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Risky Bisquick posted:Sorry not sorry for breaking up pedantic derails Possible corroboration: loving Kharkiv 🇺🇦 Kherson region reports powerful explosions near Chernobaevka ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ t.me/hueviykharkov/55599
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Apr 17, 2022 20:02
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Warbadger posted:*STANK Pops Surströmming grenades and retreats as the enemy and their missiles vomit uncontrollably* Armor reinforced with depleted Surstromming cans.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:03
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ronya posted:hoping that neutrality would please the Soviets sufficiently was always a bit of a gamble; it paid off for Leopold Figl in the Austrian State Treaty of 1955, but Imre Nagy tried it the very next year right next door, and everyone knows how that shook out To clarify: it wasn't Figl offering neutrality to the Soviets, but the Soviets demanding it as a prerequisite to the Austrian state treaty of 1955. And they did so after they learned that Eisenhower was ok with a Swiss neutrality model. It was preferable over splitting Austria into a NATO and a Soviet half.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:04
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Hammerstein posted:Well if that's how you want to interpret it. Goon who replied to you describing it as racism is actually Ukrainian, hth. The issue is not capability, which was not the best choice of phrasing by FishBulbia, but the will to fight. “Fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian” does imply that Ukrainians have no will of their own to defend their home, to which the odds of success are not relevant. As to your “well actually it’s not orientalist” - it’s a sweeping generalisation based on nationality, which makes it a bigoted statement regardless of your opinion on taxonomical nuances of disparaging speech.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:05
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EugeneDebsWasCool posted:It's always funny to see supposed leftists use "Realpolitik", which is an inherently reactionary viewpoint and policy, to justify Russia's imperial ambitions and their desire to regain a mythical lost glory. His not being dead is actually relevant since one of the earlier really mask-off leftist posts I saw after the war started was someone quoting a Kissinger statement on NATO and eastern Europe as to why Russia was forced into all of this. I don't honestly remember how much of it was "and he's pretty smart on this topic" vs just "as a lib he's your hero right?" but I don't see why it really matters at this point.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:07
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