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Xiahou Dun posted:I mean, this is exactly what the PRC has been working for its entire ever, so if nothing else that's going well, I guess. What's interesting is IIRC France did actually do this but with the modern borders of France as we know it. France pre-1850 was a lot more linguistically and culturally diverse.
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May 23, 2022 21:06
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:RE: Mao's accent, Stalin used to resent being portrayed with his actual georgian accent instead of being a cosmopolitan muscovite. i heard from somewhere that putin was the first russian/soviet head of state since lenin who spoke with an educated accent, how accurate is it?
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May 23, 2022 21:09
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I studied Mandarin in Shanghai and got used to that accent. Traveling to Beijing was wild as it sounds like a bunch of pirates speaking Chinese. That being said, Shanghai has its own language that shares more linguistic roots with Japanese than anything from farther inland, if I recall correctly. China is a huge diverse nation made of many very distinct and separate cultures. I do agree that literacy has had a unifying effect. Every TV show regardless of language had pu tong hua subtitles.
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May 23, 2022 21:10
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Raenir Salazar posted:What's interesting is IIRC France did actually do this but with the modern borders of France as we know it. France pre-1850 was a lot more linguistically and culturally diverse. Sort of true but you’re mangling the specifics and thus why I wouldn’t use it as an analogous example. French language standardization is a very different and complicated thing that’s been going on for a long rear end time and by virtue of how French nationalism manifested vis a vis the rest of Europe you get totally different results. I’d use it as a contrast, as opposed to a comparison, with Chinese if I were doing a serious thing, but it’d rapidly get pretty inside baseball because a lot of the meat of the argument would be less history as a discipline and more longitudinal case studies in language policy.
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May 23, 2022 21:18
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Saul Kain posted:That being said, Shanghai has its own language that shares more linguistic roots with Japanese than anything from farther inland, if I recall correctly. What!?!?!? Hard no. Nope. Everything about this statement is wrong except that Shanghai exists and has distinct forms. There is nothing even to respond to with how wrong this is. It’s got more in common with German than Japanese who told you this.
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May 23, 2022 21:22
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Xiahou Dun posted:What!?!?!? I was curious, so I found that wikipedia says... quote:The Shanghainese tonal system is also significantly different from other Chinese varieties, sharing more similarities with the Japanese pitch accent, with two level tonal contrasts (high and low), whereas Cantonese and Mandarin are typical of contour tonal languages. ...which may be what whoever was getting at? I know absolutely nothing about any of this and am not asserting that this is necessarily true, just what I found out there.
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May 23, 2022 21:28
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Well whoever wrote that apparently hasn’t listened to either and is playing very, very fast with what “pitch accent” means since one is tonal and the other is mora timed which, to put it in milhist terms, would be like saying a missile is related to a bow and arrow because they both have a thing flying through the air. And phonology isn’t how you determine relationships between language anyway, that’s madness.
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May 23, 2022 21:35
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ChubbyChecker posted:i heard from somewhere that putin was the first russian/soviet head of state since lenin who spoke with an educated accent, how accurate is it? There isn't really a "posh" accent like you have in the UK. There are some very stark rural/urban divisions, but there is a sort of "standard Russian" that pretty much any native Russian speaker in any city speaks. Listening to Stalin's speech, he definitely has an accent but it's not very bad. Khrushchev sounds no different than any other urban native Russian speaker. There is a small trace of an accent (h vs g sounds) and the occasional colloquial pronunciation (sht vs cht) that slips through. Brezhnev sounds like a drunken yokel. I tried to find an earlier speech so his decline isn't so obvious but he doesn't sound very good in any of them. A few h instead of g here and there as well. Andropov sounds like he could be a voice actor or newscaster, perfect textbook Russian. I could only find one speech by Chernenko, the quality is very poor but again he speaks proper Russian with the occasional sht instead of cht. Gorbachev also speaks perfect Russian without any noticeable deviations. Yeltsin in the 80s sounds just fine, but in Yeltsin's most famous speech ("I'm tired, I quit") he sounds worse than Brezhnev. These are based off of a few samples I found on Youtube just now and I'm not a linguist by any means, so take my evaluation with a grain of salt.
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May 23, 2022 21:53
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Lol I'm also familiar with a restaurant called Szechuan, but it was where my grandma lived not my hometown. The founders were family friends and used to dote on me when I was little. I was well into my 20s before realizing that Sichuan and Szechuan are the same place. Wade-Giles is nonsense. I learned fairly quickly that the food at the restaurant was much more Hunan than Sichuan, and then I learned after going there enough that the owners were Cantonese and they gave me the secret Catonese menu for a while. Raenir Salazar posted:What's interesting is IIRC France did actually do this but with the modern borders of France as we know it. France pre-1850 was a lot more linguistically and culturally diverse. Peasants into Frenchmen is a classic and probably one of the best books I've read that I'd say is...not strictly ABOUT WW1 but very WWI adjacent.
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May 23, 2022 21:54
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Nothingtoseehere posted:
On the contrary, I'd say that trying to tighten up and say X Y Z aren't really "proper genocides" also weakens the idea of the Nazi Germany as a Never Again moment. Making the Nazis these weird Alien force who isn't like anything else ever makes it a poor lesson for the rest of the world, and to me at least stinks of intellectual dishonesty. Ultimately the victims and their descendants know the horrible things that were done to them, and the denial of the badness of these things - that just reinforces the idea that if you are sufficiently powerful and win, you can write the history and ensure you aren't the bad guys. Being able to say "we did horrible things, and now we won't do it ever" again is powerful and honest imo.
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May 23, 2022 22:19
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Ensign Expendable posted:There isn't really a "posh" accent like you have in the UK. There are some very stark rural/urban divisions, but there is a sort of "standard Russian" that pretty much any native Russian speaker in any city speaks. 
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May 23, 2022 23:25
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Tulip posted:Peasants into Frenchmen is a classic and probably one of the best books I've read that I'd say is...not strictly ABOUT WW1 but very WWI adjacent. Was assigned this back in college and I heartily agree. It's worth seeking out.
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May 23, 2022 23:41
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Xiahou Dun posted:What!?!?!? If I recall correctly, which apparently I did not. I only lived in the place for a few months and that was in 2006. I will strive to adhere to your very rigorous discussion standards on this *checks notes* comedy forum. Forgive me.
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May 24, 2022 01:14
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Saul Kain posted:If I recall correctly, which apparently I did not. I only lived in the place for a few months and that was in 2006. I will strive to adhere to your very rigorous discussion standards on this *checks notes* comedy forum. Forgive me. Sorry if I came off as harsh, but that would be absolutely bonkers. It'd be like someone just apropos of nothing saying that badgers were a kind of lizard.
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May 24, 2022 01:19
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Xiahou Dun posted:Sorry if I came off as harsh, but that would be absolutely bonkers. Well, maybe a fuzzy lizard? Still it’s a really neat sounding language. The taxi drivers were mental. Sorry, my linguistics studies were minor level at best and focused mainly on not making my head explode trying to learn pinyin and characters at the same time. Or substitute a spanish phrase for what I wanted to say.
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May 24, 2022 01:22
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Xiahou Dun posted:Sorry if I came off as harsh, but that would be absolutely bonkers. Platypi though!
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May 24, 2022 04:04
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Same, my russian is bad so like I can notice an accent but not really clarify what it comes across as other than "not normal, not kazakh"
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May 24, 2022 13:04
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Xiahou Dun posted:My go to example is that for the Chinese-language release of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, all of the main cast had to be redubbed because they spoke sufficiently differently that no one could understand them. Zhang Ziyi was the "closest" but she speaks Beijinghua as gently caress. Fun fact: I read an interview with ang lee where he said chow yun-fat mostly did his lines in Cantonese because it was really hard for him to act and speak Mandarin at the same time. Did he redub himself or did they get someone else to do it?
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May 24, 2022 13:29
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Ensign Expendable posted:Gorbachev also speaks perfect Russian without any noticeable deviations. He didn’t really have a noticeable accent, but he was notorious for bad grammar.
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May 24, 2022 13:40
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Was the Me-262 on paper competitive with the later MiG-15 and F-86 or was the Me-262 the minimally functional design the Germans could get to work during the war? If they hypothetically had a few additional years to iterate on the Me-262 could the German's had eventually produced something on par or was there hard limits on the material industrial capacity of Germany to produce the kinds of alloys, powerplants, and fuel needed to make more high performant jet fighters?
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May 24, 2022 15:49
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May 24, 2022 16:14
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May 24, 2022 16:19
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Scratch Monkey posted:Fun fact: I read an interview with ang lee where he said chow yun-fat mostly did his lines in Cantonese because it was really hard for him to act and speak Mandarin at the same time. Did he redub himself or did they get someone else to do it? Yeah they started with everyone nominally trying to say their lines in Mandarin, but rapidly said gently caress it cause it wasn't working so they just said whatever, and spoke in their most comfortable form. I'd have to double-check, but I'm pretty sure the Mandarin dub (for release in China) is literally some randos. The version that got released abroad has the original audio and it's weird cause I can understand some of the characters totally fine and then like Michele Yeoh eeeeeeeeennnnnnh sort of and Chow-yun Fat no not even a little bit.
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May 24, 2022 16:26
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Raenir Salazar posted:Was the Me-262 on paper competitive with the later MiG-15 and F-86 or was the Me-262 the minimally functional design the Germans could get to work during the war? If they hypothetically had a few additional years to iterate on the Me-262 could the German's had eventually produced something on par or was there hard limits on the material industrial capacity of Germany to produce the kinds of alloys, powerplants, and fuel needed to make more high performant jet fighters? By 1945 they were absolutely behind on all this sort of thing if only because America was bombing the poo poo out of their factories by day and the RAF by night. 1945 Germany is not a time you want to be making the F-86.
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May 24, 2022 16:28
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yeah they started with everyone nominally trying to say their lines in Mandarin, but rapidly said gently caress it cause it wasn't working so they just said whatever, and spoke in their most comfortable form. For wuxia stories would this be realistic if the different like adventurers hail from different parts of China that they might not be able to understand each other? (Bearing in mind I only have a very vague idea as to what constitutes "Wuxia")
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May 24, 2022 16:37
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feedmegin posted:By 1945 they were absolutely behind on all this sort of thing if only because America was bombing the poo poo out of their factories by day and the RAF by night. 1945 Germany is not a time you want to be making the F-86. This is why the question is a hypothetical on whether the Me-262 could fight a MiG-15 or a F-86 
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May 24, 2022 16:41
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The mig-15 and F-86 are already a generation ahead of the Me262. The 262 would get utterly wrecked by the f86 in particular. It has over 100mph top speed on the 262 and double the climb rate. In a straight up fight (so not dealing with an ambush out of the sun etc) it wouldn't even be close. Oh and the F86 has something like 15,000 feet on the 262's service ceiling, so any ambushing from above is going to be done by the 86. Now, if you look at designs that were more or less almost contemporaries like the P-80 and the Meteor it's a lot more even. I mean, they're still superior designs with somewhat better top speeds, service ceilings, and climb rates, but it's nowhere near the clown show that a 262 vs f86 fight would be. This is all theoretical spherical jet fighters in a vacuum here, ignoring poo poo like quality of construction, engine life, ease of manufacture, etc. Those are all areas the 262 is also going to show its rear end, but no idea how badly vs. the ww2-ish contemporary aircraft.
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May 24, 2022 16:51
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Raenir Salazar posted:Was the Me-262 on paper competitive with the later MiG-15 and F-86 or was the Me-262 the minimally functional design the Germans could get to work during the war? If they hypothetically had a few additional years to iterate on the Me-262 could the German's had eventually produced something on par or was there hard limits on the material industrial capacity of Germany to produce the kinds of alloys, powerplants, and fuel needed to make more high performant jet fighters? The Me-262 was certainly not the minimally effective design that the Germans could have come up with - the Germans certainly made cruder stuff like the Komet and the He-162. The Allies were keen to get their hands on Me 262 examples as the plane had distinct advantages over contemporary jets like the Meteor, even despite the fact the Germans were hampered by alloy shortages limiting things like jet engine quality. The Me 262 would not be comparable with the F-86 or MiG-15 but only because it was introduced 5 years earlier, in the same way a Hawker Hurricane (introduced 1937) isn't going to stand up to a Corsair (introduced 1942). But there were key things from the Me 262 that would be used in future jets. It should also be noted that piston engined fighters were still in use in 1950 and so the Me 262 still has all the advantages a jet has over them, even if it's not a top tier jet - specifically, a much faster "best rate of climb", and a much higher potential top speed due to not being limited by the aerodynamics of a propellor.
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May 24, 2022 17:05
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Yeah I was curious because I was once reading two different alt-hist stories where the war had dragged on into 1949 in one or ended but resumed later on in the other and in one the author explains that to forestall wehraboos he allowed it so that the German designs/napkinwaffle could perform at pretty much their on paper maximum to give them a chance against American B-36's but explained this would be very unlikely and I was wondering if this meant that even if the war had gone on longer and weren't suffering the effects of strategic bombing as keenly, did this mean they couldn't do better than the Me-262 or not. Particularly for the second one (written I think by Newt Gingrich of all people) where WW2 2.0 restarts in like 1950 after a lull for a few years and I wonder if the Germans could eventually produce a F-86 answer if the pressure was off? Maybe its a bit of a strange question but there's like two different alt-hist stories mixed together in my mind so hopefully that adds some context.
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May 24, 2022 17:20
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Raenir Salazar posted:For wuxia stories would this be realistic if the different like adventurers hail from different parts of China that they might not be able to understand each other? (Bearing in mind I only have a very vague idea as to what constitutes "Wuxia") It's a fantasy story so the answer is "uh depends". A lot of the characters in the wuxia I've read are supposed to be at least moderately well educated and would probably know whatever variety of Classical* was common at the time, but obviously there would be outliers. Then you'd also have to keep in mind that it's obviously going to vary so much it'd be hard to generalize. I vaguely remember some dialect-based humor in The Water Margin, but that was years and years ago and I was reading it for fun not for study so I could be misremembering. *Keeping in mind that this is like saying Latin when Cicero and Charlemagne both nominally spoke Latin and would not be able to understand each other.
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May 24, 2022 17:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah I was curious because I was once reading two different alt-hist stories where the war had dragged on into 1949 in one or ended but resumed later on in the other and in one the author explains that to forestall wehraboos he allowed it so that the German designs/napkinwaffle could perform at pretty much their on paper maximum to give them a chance against American B-36's but explained this would be very unlikely and I was wondering if this meant that even if the war had gone on longer and weren't suffering the effects of strategic bombing as keenly, did this mean they couldn't do better than the Me-262 or not. Particularly for the second one (written I think by Newt Gingrich of all people) where WW2 2.0 restarts in like 1950 after a lull for a few years and I wonder if the Germans could eventually produce a F-86 answer if the pressure was off? Maybe its a bit of a strange question but there's like two different alt-hist stories mixed together in my mind so hopefully that adds some context. My answer would be that, in theory, the Germans could make something comparable to the F-86 by 1950, but there's so many open questions about such a situation that I can't really say much more than that.
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May 24, 2022 17:29
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Raenir Salazar posted:Was the Me-262 on paper competitive with the later MiG-15 and F-86 or was the Me-262 the minimally functional design the Germans could get to work during the war? If they hypothetically had a few additional years to iterate on the Me-262 could the German's had eventually produced something on par or was there hard limits on the material industrial capacity of Germany to produce the kinds of alloys, powerplants, and fuel needed to make more high performant jet fighters? No. The 262's primary advantage was speed, which for the time was legitimately impressive - 560 miles an hour, which was significantly faster than contemporary prop fighters. Flown properly, the 262 was practically invulnerable against aircraft like the P-51 or Spitfire. But even before the end of the war, its performance was already being equaled and even exceeded by the Gloster Meteor and P-80. And compared to the next generation of jets, the 262 was just as outclassed as the prop fighters had been against it - with the F-86A able to hit speeds over 670 mph. Could the Germans have developed the 262 into a next-generation fighter? Also no. The design was inherently limited by the placement of the engines on wing nacelles, which made sense for the time (The Brits did the same thing with the Gloster Meteor) but limited maneuverability and increased drag. Iterating on the 262 to stay on par with later jets would, in effect, have meant designing an entirely new aircraft. Which, let's keep in mind, is what everyone else was doing, as the speed of aircraft research and development in the late '40s and through the '50s saw an immense amount of designs would be created, produced, and then removed from service within just a few years. Did material conditions limit the 262? To a degree, sure. Aircraft engines, especially jet engines, require very tight tolerances and very specific materials. The 262's Jumo engines undoubtedly would have benefited from better raw materials and working conditions, but these were also still very early jet engines - there was only so far they could be developed. With more time, could the Germans have developed better engines? I mean, probably, but high performance jet engines are an extreme engineering challenge. The Americans and British relied on significant cooperation with each other to develop their engines, and even the Soviets got a massive leg up when they licensed the Rolls-Royce Nene engine for the MiG-15. So, it's impossible to say what the Germans could have done on that front. Ultimately, the Me-262 was not a wonder weapon or massive, unprecedented technological leap. It was a good aircraft for the time, with some genuinely innovative features like its swept wing design. But it had significant flaws as well, and its performance was matched by contemporaneous Allied designs. Undoubtedly, the Germans would have come up with some new designs in a future where the war continued or never started - but it didn't, so they didn't. e: lol, beaten three times over. That's what I get for typing posts from my phone!
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May 24, 2022 17:31
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Xiahou Dun posted:It's a fantasy story so the answer is "uh depends". A lot of the characters in the wuxia I've read are supposed to be at least moderately well educated and would probably know whatever variety of Classical* was common at the time, but obviously there would be outliers. Then you'd also have to keep in mind that it's obviously going to vary so much it'd be hard to generalize. I vaguely remember some dialect-based humor in The Water Margin, but that was years and years ago and I was reading it for fun not for study so I could be misremembering. Hrm, that begs an interesting question then, what distinguishes Wuxia from Xianxia? I thought the latter was more "fantasy" while the former was more grounded or is it more about the tropes involved?
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May 24, 2022 17:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:Hrm, that begs an interesting question then, what distinguishes Wuxia from Xianxia? I thought the latter was more "fantasy" while the former was more grounded or is it more about the tropes involved? Dawg, I'm a linguist not a literary critic.
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May 24, 2022 17:32
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Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah I was curious because I was once reading two different alt-hist stories where the war had dragged on into 1949 in one or ended but resumed later on in the other and in one the author explains that to forestall wehraboos he allowed it so that the German designs/napkinwaffle could perform at pretty much their on paper maximum to give them a chance against American B-36's but explained this would be very unlikely and I was wondering if this meant that even if the war had gone on longer and weren't suffering the effects of strategic bombing as keenly, did this mean they couldn't do better than the Me-262 or not. Particularly for the second one (written I think by Newt Gingrich of all people) where WW2 2.0 restarts in like 1950 after a lull for a few years and I wonder if the Germans could eventually produce a F-86 answer if the pressure was off? Maybe its a bit of a strange question but there's like two different alt-hist stories mixed together in my mind so hopefully that adds some context. The question you're asking is as fantastical as your wuxia question. The answer is that it's alt-history and you're already hand-waving away the actual history so it's whatever you want it to be to make for a good story. Those events never happened, so we can't even really say with any certainty what might have been possible in a Nazi Germany ca 1948. Maybe they have some materials science breakthrough on the order of the physics breakthrough that Los Alamos produced and are making mid-1960s quality turbines in 1950. Maybe not. It's all fantasy. The reality is that their economy was hosed by - and I'm being extremely charitable here - 1942 and they were always going to be dealing with crippling material problems that exacerbated their design issues. They were also working within a political system that deeply hamstrung them. The 262 is a famous example of both of these. I'll just quote wikipedia on this one because it's convenient: quote:y Summer 1943, the Jumo 004A engine had passed several 100-hour tests, with a time between overhauls of 50 hours being achieved.[32] However, the Jumo 004A engine proved unsuitable for full-scale production because of its considerable weight and its high utilization of strategic material (Ni, Co, Mo), which were in short supply. Consequently, the 004B engine was designed to use a minimum amount of strategic materials. All high heat-resistant metal parts, including the combustion chamber, were changed to mild steel (SAE 1010) and were protected only against oxidation by aluminum coating. The total engine represented a design compromise to minimize the use of strategic materials and to simplify manufacture.[32] With the lower-quality steels used in the 004B, the engine required overhaul after just 25 hours for a metallurgical test on the turbine. If it passed the test, the engine was refitted for a further 10 hours of usage, but 35 hours marked the absolute limit for the turbine wheel.[33] While BMW's and Junkers' axial compressor turbojet engines were characterised by a sophisticated design that could offer a considerable advantage – also used in a generalized form for the contemporary American Westinghouse J30 turbojet – the lack of rare materials for the Jumo 004 design put it at a disadvantage compared to the "partly axial-flow" Power Jets W.2/700 turbojet engine which, despite its own largely centrifugal compressor-influenced design, provided (between an operating overhaul interval of 60–65 hours[34]) an operational life span of 125 hours. Frank Whittle concludes in his final assessment over the two engines: "it was in the quality of high temperature materials that the difference between German and British engines was most marked" 50 loving hours between engine overhauls and that was with the GOOD version that used all the fancy materials, and then they made a poo poo ton with low quality steel that had half the life. As far as political meddling goes, Hitler famously demanded that the 262 be a fighter-bomber for his own insane Hitler reasons. So that's the reality. It's an OK to good early jet design that was hamstrug by the economic and political environment it was developed in. That's the same environment that caused the Nazis to lose the war by 1945. Any hypothetical Nazi Germany in 1950 is jettisoning those problems, and that that point we can have them do whatever the gently caress we want them to do because we're not talking about actual Nazis that any kind of historical precedent is going to be useful for, but fantasy creatures without the actual problems that doomed the 3rd Reich.
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May 24, 2022 17:36
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"The question you're asking is as fantastical as your wuxia question." I'm not sure if I'm reading the tone right, but this kinda sounds like an unnecessary dig, which I hope you're not intending it that way but I'll mention that I find it more than a little discouraging and off putting.
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May 24, 2022 17:47
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Raenir Salazar posted:"The question you're asking is as fantastical as your wuxia question." I'm not sure if I'm reading the tone right, but this kinda sounds like an unnecessary dig, which I hope you're not intending it that way but I'll mention that I find it more than a little discouraging and off putting. The point is that fundamentally asking about alt history is an exercise in creative writing, not history.
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May 24, 2022 17:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:"The question you're asking is as fantastical as your wuxia question." I'm not sure if I'm reading the tone right, but this kinda sounds like an unnecessary dig, which I hope you're not intending it that way but I'll mention that I find it more than a little discouraging and off putting. Alternate history is inherently unknowable. If you don't want to be insulted by people dismissing your questions as fantastical, ask less fantastical questions.
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May 24, 2022 17:56
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I just want to point out that successfully intercepting high-altitude bombers requires more than simply having a plane that on paper can reach that altitude and operate there.
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May 24, 2022 18:02
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Cyrano4747 posted:The point is that fundamentally asking about alt history is an exercise in creative writing, not history. I don't think this is fundamentally against the point of the thread though. No one will ever learn anything if they're discouraged from asking potentially silly questions; and this thread has generally been capable of respectfully considering alt history questions in the past; questions like, "Could the Germans have actually have taken Moscow?" actually have substantial answers to them that no one will ever truly learn the answer to if they're shut down from asking questions. The comparison you made with my wuxia question was definitely seems to be an unfair comparison to make because even if Wuxia films tend to depict fictional events I'm pretty sure they do draw allusions to actual historical events and asking about the historical basis to a work of fiction isn't unreasonable or fantastical in the least. Acebuckeye13 posted:Alternate history is inherently unknowable. If you don't want to be insulted by people dismissing your questions as fantastical, ask less fantastical questions. You can't look at the useful and informative posts the question nevertheless generated and make this assertion with a straight face to be honest. Maybe the onus isn't on me to ask less silly questions but for people to be less dickish. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 18:10 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 18:04
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