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TFA is a sequei that really wants to be a remake So they just set the universe to be pretty much how it was in ANH but that don’t make any sense so they cover everything that makes no sense with these “mystery boxes “ and hope they can fill them with something interesting later on. And than they failed to do that I have no idea if it’s JJ fault or disney but I would bet on the later
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Jun 6, 2022 16:41
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Palp lives ruins Vader's whole arc
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Jun 6, 2022 16:42
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Elias_Maluco posted:TFA is a sequei that really wants to be a remake I feel like a lot of those issues hit harder for people like me who grew up reading the EU novels, which spent a lot of time establishing and exploring the political situation(i.e. the New Republic) after the fall of the Empire. So to have a new movie come out where we get zero background on what the current status quo is, and Han is just a smuggler again and he's estranged from Leia, and Leia is right back where she was running a rebel group, it was just very disheartening.
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Jun 6, 2022 17:05
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General Dog posted:Was the way that Alec Guiness pronounced "evil" (where it's like 3 syllables) common for whatever regional accent he had, or did he just specifically say it weird? Richard Burton has a noticeably high syllable count for the word evil too in Exorcist II. IIRC possibly the most even surpassing Christopher Lee and Peter Cushing. Basebf555 posted:I feel like a lot of those issues hit harder for people like me who grew up reading the EU novels, which spent a lot of time establishing and exploring the political situation(i.e. the New Republic) after the fall of the Empire. So to have a new movie come out where we get zero background on what the current status quo is, and Han is just a smuggler again and he's estranged from Leia, and Leia is right back where she was running a rebel group, it was just very disheartening. I was torn on this, like I was looking forward to Last Jedi expanding on everything you brought up but that was on the assumption that some kind of very general plan was in place for the trilogy. Obviously there's a ton of on the fly decisions in the OT too but there was still a kind of general idea of like, what the characters are about and stuff. Han being washed up seemed like a good decision at first. He's not a hero, he's a smarmy conman who sometimes rises to the occasion, fine. But like this guy's a straight up general, there's no way he'd ever get THAT washed up again. Same with Leia, like, most of the galaxy doesn't see the First Order as a threat? Huh? Okay so after they LITERALLY BLOW UP not-CORUSCANT the Resistance is still just like 10 X-Wings or whatever? Like at that point hiw is the entire galaxy not like gently caress these guys. I only saw Force Awakens once and I enjoyed it a lot but I honestly wish it was a straight up remake or reboot, because trying to fit A New Hope's story into the post RotJ world was never going to totally click. And you see that reflected in how Force Awakens is a big gorgeous nothingburger of a movie storywise. Great lightsaber action at the end though, the ST was such a waste of ton of talented folks' acting and effects skills. So I do 100% get Johnson just saying gently caress that to a lot of what Abrams set up, because there wasn't really anything there. Otherwise the first half of RoS wouldn't have been a speed run if "well actually this is what happened not what you saw in the wnd movie"
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Jun 6, 2022 17:31
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Prior to Disney, all Star Wars theatrical had been an auteur product. Their mistake was breaking that up. They needed to have one single source, and they didn't, they treated it just like one more IP to be mined for "content" and the results are playing out like they always do when the suits run the show.
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Jun 6, 2022 17:43
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well why not posted:Didn’t Obi Wan defeat two of the highest ranking Bad Dudes in like a week? He rescued Palpatine, defeated Dooku and shot Grievous to death. He also did some poo poo on Geonosis, but my memory is flaky on exactly what. There’s achievements there. He got cooked by Dooku twice, really quickly both times Obi-Wan was able to beat Anakin because they spent thousands of hours training and fighting together, and because he knew he was outmatched and basically spent most of the fight trying to shift towards a location that was favorable to him as it was his only path to victory. Similarly, you can see Palpatine do the same thing to Yoda as he knows blade to blade combat is not particularly in his favor. He holds his own until he can find an opportunity to ditch his lightsaber and go all out with Force powers and it eventually gains him the upper hand.
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Jun 6, 2022 18:02
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Prior to Disney, all Star Wars theatrical had been an auteur product. Their mistake was breaking that up. They needed to have one single source, and they didn't, they treated it just like one more IP to be mined for "content" and the results are playing out like they always do when the suits run the show. They really need to just have one "flagship" show called "The Star Wars" where they do all the major fill-in between ROTJ and TFA, and then use it to do more content past TROS, instead of all these little (un)limited series where they want to throw in a bunch of random stuff (how Book of Boba Fett, a show about Boba Fett, suddenly was about the Mandalorian, Luke, and Grogu for a couple of episodes). Do your little limited series as you get side-stories in "The Star Wars" that you don't want to derail the main story by going too much into. Basebf555 posted:So to have a new movie come out where we get zero background on what the current status quo is, and Han is just a smuggler again and he's estranged from Leia, and Leia is right back where she was running a rebel group, it was just very disheartening. Agreed. I still lol when I hear the Kathleen Kennedy quote that they had to create new stories for the movies because they didn't have comics and books like the Marvel subdivision does The quote in question; Kathleen Kennedy posted:“Every one of these movies is a particularly hard nut to crack. There’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be.” Thrawn trilogy just sitting there, not actually existing (Source for quote)
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Jun 6, 2022 19:18
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:They really need to just have one "flagship" show called "The Star Wars" where they do all the major fill-in between ROTJ and TFA, and then use it to do more content past TROS, instead of all these little (un)limited series where they want to throw in a bunch of random stuff (how Book of Boba Fett, a show about Boba Fett, suddenly was about the Mandalorian, Luke, and Grogu for a couple of episodes). Do your little limited series as you get side-stories in "The Star Wars" that you don't want to derail the main story by going too much into. A big problem when it comes to period between Return of the Jedi and Force Awakens is the question of whether there's a mainline narrative worth telling when we know where it all leads. How much time does anyone really want to invest in Luke's doomed Jedi School? Can I interest you in the postwar reconstruction of a Republic government that will be snuffed out in an instant, seemingly to the regret of no one? How does Snoke unify the Imperial remnant and pay for a shiny new First Order fleet and Starkiller base? I don't know, but I bet it won't make much sense! General Dog fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 19:31
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Neo Rasa posted:Han being washed up seemed like a good decision at first. He's not a hero, he's a smarmy conman who sometimes rises to the occasion, fine. But like this guy's a straight up general, there's no way he'd ever get THAT washed up again. I said this in a previous post itt but it makes 100% sense. This isn't like it's just Han bored with life who goes back to his old ways, his son literally became an evil genocidal maniac, Han completely failed as a parent, to the point where his son murders innocent children and students before going on to be fine with killing millions on his way to conquer the galaxy. Him and Leia understandably grew apart so the guy is grieving and coping in a way most people would which is to retreat into something and that's going on carefree adventures with his best Wookie friend. Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 20:06
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Snoke idea that would have been better than what we got: Make him Palpatine's freeloading older brother. Sheev and Snoke. Snoke and Sheev. The one an ambitious politician and evil wizard, the other a golden bathrobe-wearing playboy and also an evil wizard. Snoke went to have adventures off-galaxy when Sheev started pursuing his plans in earnest and got called back by the pull of the Force when his brother was killed by Vader. Like, people were already calling Snoke a lame rehash of Sheev in TFA, why not make that connection textual and create some personal stakes.
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Jun 6, 2022 20:18
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At this point, it’s clear that - whether we be likers, or haters, or smart people - we actually all agree on many basic, fundamental things: Nobody reads ‘Star Wars’ as a nonology. Absolutely nobody considers this to be one story in nine parts. I have yet to see a single claim that the end of Episode 9 actually pays off what was ‘set up’ in The Return Of The Jedi, or any other Lucas film. (The same is true of Episode 8, for those who consider that the proper ending of the Sequels.) What’s generally accepted, instead, is that the ST offers an ‘interesting spin’ on the concept of making a sequel to Star Wars. The whole thing exists as a sort of hypothetical, even in completed form. Like, instead of simply making a sequel to the Star Wars movies, they made a bunch of “wouldn’t it be interesting if...” propositions. The most basic of these propositions was “what if nobody learned anything from the events of Episode 6, so that they effectively didn’t happen.” And, for a time, that was the appeal: fans were ecstatic at the prospect that the Sequels might undo “the bad ones”. In a more general sense, the popularity of TFA rested on the promise that the Star Wars franchise was back. This did not mean that the narrative was continuing, and certainly not that it was concluding. It was just, like, there. Consequently, it never mattered that no-one actually liked TFA except as a feature-length advertisement for the new franchise. People who like it consider it a very good advertisement for a product that never materialized, while those who don’t now repeat the “mystery box” meme. But, again, everyone agrees on it being a colourful packaging, while entirely missing Abrams’ point that the box itself is the artwork. “Maybe the art is hidden inside this urinal? Let’s smash it, and get the art out!” For better or worse, TLJ is ‘what was inside the urinal’: a Star Wars movie. Except, y’know, also not really. The film is not a sequel to the Lucas films but a condensed repetition or restatement of them. Where TFA said “Star Wars is back,” TLJ offers Star Wars again: What if the Jedi figures from popular culture are both heroic and idiotic? What if being simply less-bad than the Hitlers and Stalins isn’t quite good enough? This was already the point of Star Wars, going back at least as far as the early 1980s. “They blow you up today, you blow them up tomorrow. This is just business.” TLJ’s main achievement is to assert, through its very redundancy, that this is probably all that Star Wars can ever be. “You're wrong!” “Maybe.” But ending this meta-commentary on the state of the Star Wars franchise with this noncommittal “maybe” meant that we had yet another advertisement for the promised ‘real’ movie that would eventually come out in the future. Broom kid! Broom kid’s gonna satisfy the hype! Broom kid’s gonna save the franchise from endless self-parody, right? So Return Of The Skywalker eventually comes out, and it’s an honest-to-god actual movie - with an ending, and everything! The only catch is that no fan wanted an ending. The previous two films promised the beginning of a new franchise, not an end to the whole series! So people were completely unprepared for an actual movie that wrapped everything up. For the first time, a sequel to Star Wars! It was also pure, unadulterated shlock. Just absolute trash. The end! Also some TV shows
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Jun 6, 2022 20:43
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I thought Return of the Jedi ended the big "Star Wars narrative" pretty drat well. In fact one of the things that worked really well, in Mando, was the idea that even though the Empire as a Galaxy-wide threat was gone, there were still little pockets left that could cause big problems for people - but were small enough that a few groups of people who weren't mythic figures of legendary power could make a difference. So you had the big theatrical experiences of telling a huge story, then you had the smaller shows doing smaller (in scope) stories. This is actually how Westerns worked, too - since they had the budget, the big Western movies could have these big sweeping narrative arcs and scenes where entire towns were blown up or shot to pieces (or a couple of guys get roped into the literal Civil War and blow up a bridge), while the shows (because of those same budget and scope concerns) would be about more mundane, but still dramatic, stories. Aside from the editing and pacing and all the other stuff, Book of Boba felt very small to me. It wanted so badly to be epic. But Boba's Kingdom was a nightclub, the front room of Jabba's palace, and 2 streets in Mos Whatever. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 21:59
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I rewatched TROS on Saturday and I was struck how ordinary the Force is in the opening scenes. Luke's training was framed as getting high and going on a vision quest in the jungle. Rey meditates, lifts rocks with her mind, and runs an obstacle course. But really weird poo poo is happening with the Force on a thematic level. It really does only make sense to take this unexplained Force Dyad thing all the way and see Rey and Kylo as two halves of the same person. Rey's the most talented psychic mutant ever, even though her parents were nobodies. Her alter ego is the son of a princess and a legendary pilot, student of the great Luke Skywalker. But Kylo sells his soul to Palpatine, so he's condemned to live in the Hell Dimension and can only be summoned back to the living world by Rey's subconscious. The robed figures and cloning machines on Morganthis are the Sith's answer to blue ghosts. Instead of guiding the next generation, they become mummies who have to slave away building ships that can somehow escape from Hell and conquer the galaxy. The weirdest part is still the politics of the First Order. Kylo Ren and his Knights, who are loyal to Palpatine, have taken over the First Order from Snoke, who was controlled by Palpatine, and Hux, who didn't like any of these people. But Kylo apparently loses control of the military to General Pryde and some other officers who were secretly loyal to Palpatine for decades. (If that wasn't the case, Palpatine wouldn't have any leverage over Kylo.) Nodoze posted:Bringing back Palpatine was dumb because he was very dead and his whole "plan" just makes his character look so much worse. He was basically the ultimate schemer and facilitator/puppet master and THAT was his plan? That is such a disservice to the character The problem is that all the good guys are dupes and idiots, so nobody gets Palpatine's private jokes. I wanted to write an effortpost about how the idea of the Skywalker Saga ruins everything, but TROS really makes the whole franchise about Palpatine's mental masturbation. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jun 8, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 22:46
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I would kill to see a movie about Palpatine set like a few days before the battle of Endor in the style of Uncut Gems.
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Jun 6, 2022 23:05
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Halloween Jack posted:I rewatched ROTS on Saturday and I was struck how ordinary the Force is in the opening scenes. Luke's training was framed as getting high and going on a vision quest in the jungle. Rey meditates, lifts rocks with her mind, and runs an obstacle course. TROS, right? This is part of why I hate the title of Episode IX, because it's so close to Revenge of the Sith. Also, you mean Leia's training, not Luke's, right? Or am I completely misreading your whole post?
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Jun 6, 2022 23:11
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Definitely TROS. Rise of the Skywalkers.
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Jun 7, 2022 01:39
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Did someone say lists a page back because I'm now compelled: The Clone Wars (TV) The Empire Strikes Back Star Wars (A New Hope) The Last Jedi Rogue One The Mandalorian Revenge of the Sith Return of the Jedi The Bad Batch The Force Awakens Solo The Phantom Menace Attack of the Clones ... Watto Taking a poo poo: A Star Wars Story ... Book of Boba Fett Obi-Wan Kenobi The Rise of Skywalker Not seen Rebels yet. Hyped for Andor.
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Jun 7, 2022 02:05
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Empire Strikes Back A New Hope Return of the Jedi KOTOR2 Revenge of the Sith KOTOR1 The Timothy Oliphant Mando ep that's just an homage to KOTOR1 The rest of Mando The Phantom Menace The Last Jedi The rest who cares
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Jun 7, 2022 03:34
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When you all rank ANH very highly, is it because you feel it's a great movie NOW, or was it groundbreaking? edit: nonsense grammar Glottis fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 05:21
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The scene where R2D2 and C3P0 get lost in the desert and separately kidnapped by jawas is more exciting and evocative of a fun space adventure than anything in any of the Disney films and it happens in the first ten minutes
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Jun 7, 2022 05:42
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Glottis posted:When you all rank ANH very highly, is it because you feel it's a great movie NOW, or it was it's groundbreaking? I think it’s a great movie now.
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Jun 7, 2022 05:49
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There's a reason most people suggest it as the starting point for newbies and not TPM. I will admit I cheat though (D+/OTD 4k version of the theatrical cut with the video speed cranked up by exactly 1%). This usually hooks the unbaptized.
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Jun 7, 2022 06:00
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Glottis posted:When you all rank ANH very highly, is it because you feel it's a great movie NOW, or it was it's groundbreaking? I think for a lot of people it's an impossible thing to dissect or boil down to just that. You can't overstate the impact and personal connection that people have to ANH and the other two OT films. When a nostalgia connection is that intense, the movie is always going to feel like a great movie NOW, because watching it NOW brings up fond memories and good feelings from when you watched it in the past and the experiences you had watching it and the people you had those experiences with, etc. It's not so easy to disconnect that from the movie and just judge it objectively, at least is isn't for me.
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Jun 7, 2022 06:32
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ANH is also definitely the most self-contained. Was made with no reason to believe they'd be certain to get a sequel, after all.
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Jun 7, 2022 06:42
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I never started watching anything star wars movie related until adulthood (around 2014 or 2015) I think every movie is some grade of bad. Rogue One is probably my favorite star wars movie. Clone Wars (the animated series) has the best storytelling of any of the stuff in the series. None of the other animated content has reached its highs. I can't unbiasedly rate KOTOR 1 or 2 because I played those as a kid and have a ton of nostalgia for those, unlike the movies. Feel free to hate me.
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Jun 7, 2022 09:49
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A differing opinion isn't anywhere near worth hating someone over. A stupid explanation for a differing opinion, however, could be a different story.
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Jun 7, 2022 10:53
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Glottis posted:When you all rank ANH very highly, is it because you feel it's a great movie NOW, or it was it's groundbreaking? I think ANH is still a solid movie, that's mostly stood the test of time. It helps that its story is a pretty straight forward heroes journey/kids fantasy type thing with just enough threat to it exciting while keeping the pace and having mostly acceptable (if aged) special effects. It may be blasphemous, but I would honestly not mind a mostly 1to1 remake where they just add some stuff for better payoff. Like the final battle between Obi Wan and Vader. It's stakes are entirely based around the ability of the heroes to get away, but there's no pay off for Vader/Obi Wan. Logically of course because all the actual relationship between the 2 was built in the following years. Looking at it now, this makes it fairly flat. And obviously, it lacks some of the spectacle of later saber battles. Though that can still be explained by Obi Wan mostly playing to buy time. Battle of Yavin can get some extra fighters. Other than that I really wouldn't know where to add more without bogging it down.
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Jun 7, 2022 11:11
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I think ANH stands the test of time because it is nearly perfect. It's a simple tale, but it's so well told you can't beat it. As an example, I remember hearing or seeing in a behind the scenes doco that they knew if the audience stood and cheered when Han comes back at the end, that it meant the movie worked. Because that means the entire story of the film, of the heroes coming together and Han's redemption story had reached the audience and they bought it. Those lasers coming out of nowhere to blast the Tie Fighters and then the Falcon screaming towards camera, "Let's blow this thing and go home!", it's perfect. My unscientific belief is that emotional release is 99% of why the film is remembered. (On a totally unrelated note, go watch Top Gun: Maverick). There's a reason Harrison Ford wanted Han dead from that point on, there was nothing left for him, his story was done. And that poo poo lasts in people's hearts and minds. It's why, imho, that a big part of the reason for the negative reaction to the sequel trilogy is it wipes out what happened in the Throne Room with Luke/Vader/Palps. That scene pretty much on it's own saves Return of the Jedi from being a disaster and is, once again, a massive emotional release for the audience, that music swelling while Vader makes his decision. I think that is another big part of why Star Wars lives rent free in a lot of people's heads to this day, so it getting made pointless, was probably a bad decision.
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Jun 7, 2022 11:33
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The bad kind of sequels always ruin the big moments of the original because they have no confidence in their own ideas and can't leave well enough alone, they have to pick them apart and cannibalise them to make the stakes ever higher and more personal.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:18
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Glottis posted:When you all rank ANH very highly, is it because you feel it's a great movie NOW, or it was it's groundbreaking? It's because it's better than all of the other ones.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:50
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The bad kind of sequels always ruin the big moments of the original because they have no confidence in their own ideas and can't leave well enough alone, they have to pick them apart and cannibalise them to make the stakes ever higher and more personal. Same with prequels - both the PT and the ST do this extensively, arguably the PT is much more egregious with it. Like to some people seeing young Ani and Obi added a lot to their eventual encounter in ANH - but the fact that we now know that they spent so much time bitterly sniping at each other and barely had any positive moments of friendship (excluding Clone Wars) robs that fight of some of its meaning.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:02
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Star Wars is definitely the best star war, always something new to notice or appreciate
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Jun 7, 2022 15:31
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It took a post-Star Wars Rebels viewing to notice that no, Threepio having a silver leg in Rebels wasn't a weird aesthetic choice, he has it in the film too, which means I didn't notice that for well over 15 years and dozens of viewings
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Jun 7, 2022 15:34
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stev posted:Same with prequels - both the PT and the ST do this extensively, arguably the PT is much more egregious with it. Like to some people seeing young Ani and Obi added a lot to their eventual encounter in ANH - but the fact that we now know that they spent so much time bitterly sniping at each other and barely had any positive moments of friendship (excluding Clone Wars) robs that fight of some of its meaning. But in Star Wars there is no indication they were ever friends. Just the opposite. Obi Wan says anakin was his friend, and Vader killed him. He also says Vader was his apprentice, who turned to the dark side. You’re importing things into that moment that are only possible in context of other sequels, which is not what GL is describing at all.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:48
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KittyEmpress posted:Feel free to hate me. I'm sure that's exactly what you're going for to feel special and different but there were always a few kids on the playground who didn't like Star Wars so this is nothing new.
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Jun 7, 2022 16:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0nQiiES9_I Queen beat you to the punch by 45 years.
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Jun 7, 2022 16:11
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I play video games, deal with it gramps
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Jun 7, 2022 16:12
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Vintersorg posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0nQiiES9_I Haha that's true! I was always like "c'mon Freddy!" at that point but hey, you feel how you feel.
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Jun 7, 2022 16:12
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Altho reading into it the line is just the gag of someone riding a bicycle dismissing fantastical things, haha. I mean, if you hate Star Wars you don't ride on the shoulders of a fab Vader.   I need this as a poster - both for my love of Star Wars and Queen.
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Jun 7, 2022 16:18
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Well I saw something wonderful today.
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Jun 7, 2022 16:20
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