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Seth Rollins returning from injury as a white hot baby-face at a PPV only to cut a whiny "you fans never really cared about me!" promo for the HEAT was a stupid idea and zapped away all his momentum. When he actually turned face later on, he sucked. Undertaker turning heel by shoving JR's face into Vince's rear end was just dumb, people really weren't ready to boo Taker anymore and he was face again six months later. Triple H was a face through the summer of 2000 and it definitely had more mileage. Instead he was revealed as the Black Glove Killer which, while it did lead to two bangers with Austin and Undertaker, was more of the same boring HHH heel schtick we'd get for the next five years. The Two Man Power Trip was actually pretty bad, Austin's heel run didn't get good until after HHH tore his quad. Hollywood Hogan, WCW world champion and leader of the reformed NWO Wolfpac turning face against WCW legend Ric Flair (who subsequently turned heel in the same match) was just totally bizarre and threw all wrestling logic out the window. I firmly believe this is when a lot of people probably finished watching WCW because it was the stupidest thing they'd done since the Goldberg loss. Lita basically marrying her rapist Kane was an attempt at a face turn for him. Lita was eventually portrayed as the villain when she turned on Kane and left him for Edge. It was mentioned earlier in this thread but the Eric Young and Kevin Nash TNA storyline went something like: 1) Nash and Young feud with Hall and Waltman 2) Nash betrays Young and joins The Band 3) Young finds allies to gain revenge 4) Young betrays allies and joins The Band 5) Waltman and Hall get fired IRL 6) Nash and Young are the only two members of The Band left, making the entire exercise completely pointless Christian joining The Alliance against Edge was stupid, he had enough heat to carry the feud on his own without being associated with a bunch of loser dweebs. That feud was perfectly slow burned at first, but WWE absolutely bodged the pay off matches.
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Jun 14, 2022 03:53
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Venomous posted:Christ, Sasaki sounded like an insufferable arsehole back then He was but this very much sounds like Choshu using Sasaki for his own political ploys cause the New Japan office was a mess
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Jun 14, 2022 04:33
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Breetai posted:Opinion time: What was the most ill-advised heel turn and why? Big Show & Big Show, probably in the same episode of Raw.
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Jun 14, 2022 05:54
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Breetai posted:Opinion time: What was the most ill-advised heel turn and why? Mr. Perfect turning heel at WrestleMania X and then completely vanishing was the final nail in the coffin for Lex Luger as a main eventer in WWF. It's basically why Michaels insisted Bryan gently caress him up after screwing him out of the title in that Orton match.
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Jun 14, 2022 06:28
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WCW had a few absolute nonsense turns. They tried to turn Jim Duggan heel once by putting him with Lance Storm's evil Canadians, and it made no sense. They also tried to turn Goldberg heel for a few months and it didn't take at all. And just anyone they randomly turned because they needed to feed more people to Hogan, but you could say that about any company he was in.
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Jun 14, 2022 07:57
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One particularly bad face turn was Doink the Clown. Now, obviously, Doink the Clown was never going to be a major phenomenon to start with, but at least in the context of the goofy-rear end New Gen era, "evil clown who wants to make children cry" is amusing, but as a nice happy clown he became insufferable. (Similarly every time WWE have tried to make the Miz a face it's been horrible. A lot of people don't like him either way but I think he at least has a place as a midcard heel.)
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Jun 14, 2022 09:11
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Heel Duggan joining Team Canada for the Healthcare would make sense in 2022.Kosmo Gallion posted:Hollywood Hogan, WCW world champion and leader of the reformed NWO Wolfpac turning face against WCW legend Ric Flair (who subsequently turned heel in the same match) was just totally bizarre and threw all wrestling logic out the window. I firmly believe this is when a lot of people probably finished watching WCW because it was the stupidest thing they'd done since the Goldberg loss. To expand on this: Hogan and Nash turned face while Flair and DDP turned heel all at the same time for no good reason on the infamous 'nitro with no wrestling in the first hour'. This was probably the worst collection of face/heel turns ever and the genuine no way back point for WCW creatively. If Goldberg had run the table on the NWO and beaten Hogan for the title they could have recovered from the finger poke. But on top of all the other reasons why this was dumb this completely short-circuited that story and effectively ended Goldberg's peak. ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Jun 14, 2022 |
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Jun 14, 2022 09:16
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Would WCW still have been doing at least alright if they never signed Hogan? It seems like signing Hogan had a ripple effect that killed the company after the boom he brought on.
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Jun 14, 2022 09:23
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Hogan was also part of the reason they started being profitable, is the thing- and while Turner had been patient with WCW, his empire merging with Time-Warner meant that they would have to start showing results sooner rather than later.
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Jun 14, 2022 09:29
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So I guess we maybe got the more interesting result of what would have happened one way or another.
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Jun 14, 2022 09:30
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John Stewart turning heel on John Cena was, while maybe not a true heel turn, a baffling choice really.
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Jun 14, 2022 10:14
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Surely there were some incredibly dumb female wrestler/diva heel and face turns? Haven't heard any of those yet. Sable was one of the most over stars in WWE in the Attitude Era, dunno why they made her a heel. Not like she had anybody to properly feud with and make famous. Also I remember Bryan losing his mind about Becky being a heel back in...2019 or so. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Jun 14, 2022 |
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Jun 14, 2022 10:58
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Bella 1 turned and allied with Bella 2 after they were feuding and one said they wished the other died in the womb. Also I'm not willing to go back and check, but I remember the women's wrestling thread being baffled at SLK to Oedo Tai, although that seems to be going well now
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Jun 14, 2022 12:06
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NikkolasKing posted:Surely there were some incredibly dumb female wrestler/diva heel and face turns? Haven't heard any of those yet. Becky's heel turn was hilarious because Road Dogg was posting through it and telling everyone "we have a plan!!!!" and that plan ended up being her and Charlotte swapping alignment like three times in two months, all in service of...setting up Charlotte's feud with Ronda
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Jun 14, 2022 14:15
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NikkolasKing posted:Surely there were some incredibly dumb female wrestler/diva heel and face turns? Haven't heard any of those yet. Didn't Nikki ASH turn heel for no reason like 2 months ago? Didn't Tori have some relationship with DX where she turned in a weird way? I feel like I remember that entire storyline with X-Pac, Tori, and Kane being a complete mess.
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Jun 14, 2022 14:27
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Ganso Bomb posted:Didn't Tori have some relationship with DX where she turned in a weird way? I feel like I remember that entire storyline with X-Pac, Tori, and Kane being a complete mess. Kane and Tori were in love, she was defending him against heel X-Pac's taunts about Kane being inadequate due to his burns, and then she agreed to a stip where X-Pac would get her for a weekend or something if Kane lost a match. Kane of course lost and afterward Tori turned on him to be with X-Pac. I guess, and this is just my vague memory or total guesswork based on the Attitude Era being what it was, she could not resist X-Pac's wiles. It is pretty gross. Kane, like Test, never got any revenge on the bad guys who ruined their lives and stole their women, their women who turned on their former loves for no real reason. They both just got beaten over and over and over again, Test especially being put in his place for years after this angle.
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Jun 14, 2022 15:01
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I'm pretty sure Vince saw Indecent Proposal in the 90s and "one night with your wife, but a wrestling angle" stuck in his head for literal decades.
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Jun 14, 2022 15:43
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Wouldn't Nash be considered more of a disastrous heel turn since it was the fingerpoke that killed everything? He was super hot still going into that match. The Wolfpac was selling merch like crazy and everyone wanted to wear the black and red.
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Jun 14, 2022 15:50
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X-Pac is cool, Kane deserved everything that happened to him.
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Jun 14, 2022 15:51
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I didn't follow it that closely when it happened but reading recaps makes me think that the WCW treated heel/face turns as the plot rather than as reconfiguration when plots ran out of steam.
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Jun 14, 2022 16:14
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CommonShore posted:I didn't follow it that closely when it happened but reading recaps makes me think that the WCW treated heel/face turns as the plot rather than as reconfiguration when plots ran out of steam. That's kinda right but it was also Russo and Bischoff constantly freaking out and desperately trying to keep the WCW ship from sinking Every week was just car crash TV. Stupid swerves for the sake of having a swerve. Heel turns just for the shock value. As someone else said, they did a really good job of making Nitro and Thunder into shows where you never really knew what was going to happen, but it didn't matter because all the surprises and shocks were just stupid bullshit nonsense
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Jun 14, 2022 16:25
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Also add worked-shoot Russo stuff to that, like LAST WEEK GOLDBERG REFUSED TO FOLLOW THE SCRIPT!
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Jun 14, 2022 16:26
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UnleashedDad posted:Wouldn't Nash be considered more of a disastrous heel turn since it was the fingerpoke that killed everything? He was super hot still going into that match. The Wolfpac was selling merch like crazy and everyone wanted to wear the black and red. Nash going face exacerbated a lot of problems in the company by putting the Hogan and Nash camps in direct story line competition with each other. One of them being mashing together almost every hot babyface they had into the Wolfpac. Not only did this lead to Goldberg's title run being eclipsed by other storylines, Hogan and Nash put together the framework to end it. Hogan had an agreement with Bischoff that he would get to end the streak, but he worked things out with Nash where Nash would end the streak but Hogan would get the title.
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Jun 14, 2022 16:38
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I wonder if it would have been better if Hogan had ended Goldberg's streak Goldberg had already beaten Hogan, so it would have been like "of course Hogan had to get his win back" which would have been less surprising than what ended up happening (or wait did Goldberg not beat Hogan until after that? I do not remember anything anymore) But maybe at the time Nash doing it seemed at least like maybe an improvement, even though in hindsight I think I would have rather it been Hogan?
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Jun 14, 2022 16:50
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Nash winning the title wasn't completely awful because the match was okay and Nash was white hot at the time. If the streak had to end then Nash was the only person who had the juice to do it. A heel Hogan winning against Goldberg would have been ten times worse.
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Jun 14, 2022 17:19
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Yeah, like if Nash keeps the belt and feuds with Hogan while Goldberg is feuding with Hall, and Flair stays out of the title picture entirely, that could have been fine for a month or two. It probably doesn't rejuvenate the ratings, and I'm not sure where you go from there, but it's not the utter disaster of what actually happened.
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Jun 14, 2022 18:45
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The streak should never have ended at Starrcade 98, and once it did, it should have not led to the loving fingerpoke.
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Jun 14, 2022 19:06
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I think Asuka being a face is terrible.
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Jun 14, 2022 19:14
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Goldberg's run had so much more steam in it. Before Starrcade his PPV defenses were: Hennig (previously scheduled US title match) nWo Battle Royal DDP and that's it.
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Jun 14, 2022 19:34
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I remember the first time Nash defended his actions by saying "someone had to break the streak" I thought to myself "I feel like Goldberg basically won the title and then Nash beat him immediately," and if that was seriously all his big-time defenses then that pretty much confirms it. I guess by 1998 standards having three title defenses was not that short, but uh, yeah, he probably should have beaten someone besides DDP who had actually held the belt before. Wait and DDP had not held it yet, ugh
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Jun 14, 2022 19:47
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Goldberg’s title run was horribly mishandled and it amazes me that he never got it afterwards. Like he was still used to doing quick squashes but they so rarely put him up against anyone big. He was so clearly the future of the company, he was getting mainstream press attention, and they didn’t use half his potential.
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Jun 14, 2022 19:53
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I don't necessarily know if this was the best plan, but DDP getting a rematch and learning from the 1st one and going over was my preference. If Hogan wants the belt after DDP wins, fine, whatever. Let him win it at Superbrawl after DDP makes the mistake of being a fighting champion.
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Jun 14, 2022 20:04
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I don't necessarily know if this was the best plan, but DDP getting a rematch and learning from the 1st one and going over was my preference. If Hogan wants the belt after DDP wins, fine, whatever. Let him win it at Superbrawl after DDP makes the mistake of being a fighting champion. If I were to fantasy book it (and I'm about to), I'd keep the title on Goldberg until late into 1999. It's possible he'd have run out of steam by Starrcade, so I'd be looking at maybe Fall Brawl or Halloween Havoc. If it's Halloween Havoc, I'd go with DDP, building off of the excellent match they'd had in 1998, and if it's Fall Brawl, I'd perhaps go with Bret Hart or Chris Benoit - building the match around "technical wrestling vs raw power."
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Jun 14, 2022 20:14
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I've said it a few times but I would probably have Scott Steiner be the one to beat Goldberg somewhere in 99. Just made sense in terms of in ring chemistry and politics since Nash and company liked him enough where you could maybe convince them to let it happen and then try to stab him in the back after.
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Jun 14, 2022 20:17
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curt hennig should have broken the streak to finally show Them all. and after he won the match he could grab the microphone and say, "don't worry goldbeng. nobody's perfect"
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Jun 14, 2022 20:33
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Did Hogan have any GOOD matches in WCW? I just mean Hogan good. Speaking of, Hogan and Bret never really tied up in either of their primes did they? Surely Hart could drag him to a 4 or 5 star, even if he couldn't help ol' Tom.
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Jun 14, 2022 20:38
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Yeah, his match with Warrior was incredible.
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Jun 14, 2022 20:39
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Did Hogan have any GOOD matches in WCW? I just mean Hogan good. Hogan and Hart only wrestled on two WCW house shows as an emergency replacement. I think both were in California. He had some good matches with Flair. The Havoc 94 match is probably the best. One of the Vader matches is pretty good too. The Goldberg match is also the best poo poo ever.
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Jun 14, 2022 20:42
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as a kid i loved superbrawl 5 against vader and i only ever rooted for hulk hogan pretty sparingly. like if he was the last good guy in the royal rumble, he had to be the one to do it. and he did. thanks hulkster
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Jun 14, 2022 20:43
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Goldberg as ascendant champion and an actual Wolfpac vs nWo feud with a blowoff could have been good, but doesn't seem like either could ever happen at the time with all the politics involved.
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Jun 14, 2022 20:45
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