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Skwirl posted:There's ways to put mods on the phone version, at least with Android, but it takes some effort. bike tory posted:If you really want, you can mod the android versions (and possibly iPhone versions? idk) gracias. that's tempting, but I'm incredibly lazy....
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Jun 13, 2022 22:33
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Garrick: [fireball xvart genocide] Garrick: I don't remember knowing a more caring person. Shar-Teel: If it bleeds... okay.
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Jun 16, 2022 18:43
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Empty Sandwich posted:Garrick: [fireball xvart genocide] Me: No Anomen, you shouldn't go murder Saerk. That's wrong. We're not assassins. (Also Me): Why yes Edwin I will kill Reyic Gethras for you and yes Renal I will murder Maevar for you, mostly because I want that 10k gold and easy xp. With Reyic I justify it by "accidentally" not leaving his house quickly enough after he asks. Hey, he started the fight, not me. I'm in the middle of a Shaman run atm and it's pretty decent. I hardly ever use the dance but being able to spontaneously cast Druid spells is surprisingly powerful, especially with the IWD spells that SCS adds. However, one of the biggest areas the Shaman shines at is healing. It's probably the best healer in the game because it can spontaneously cast any heal it knows. That's nice because I don't always want those spells but they're there when I need them. Whereas if I'm like a Cleric or a base class Druid I'm usually trying to load my spellbook up with other things and sometimes that's fine but sometimes I want more heals and don't have them.
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Jun 16, 2022 19:26
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The only use I've found for shaman dance is when trying to kite enemies like Drizzt around to kill them with ranged weapons. The unlimited supply of summons helps take the pressure off a bit. Otherwise yeah agree Shaman are fantastic, not in a powergaming sense but just useful and fun to play.
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Jun 16, 2022 20:43
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I stopped caring as much about Drizzt's gear when I found that casting in his armour is not possible. That was the big attraction for me.
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Jun 16, 2022 21:10
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His weapons are pretty much the best in the game, so I almost always kill him.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:01
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bike tory posted:The only use I've found for shaman dance is when trying to kite enemies like Drizzt around to kill them with ranged weapons. The unlimited supply of summons helps take the pressure off a bit. Yeah it can be ok for single target strong enemies but any group of enemies it's not as useful for. I might give it a try against like Dragons and see how that goes. I agree a Shaman isn't necessarily a powergamer's choice but being able to cast spells like Insect Plague, Entropy Shield, etc at will is still rather strong. They use a mage's xp table instead of a Druid's too for some reason so I think I will be unlocking level 7 spells before a Druid would since Druids have that insane xp block at mid levels.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:02
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Ginette Reno posted:They use a mage's xp table instead of a Druid's too for some reason so I think I will be unlocking level 7 spells before a Druid would since Druids have that insane xp block at mid levels. Two questions: Which IWD spells does SCS add, and isn't there a mod to give the druids a more sane experience progression?
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Jun 17, 2022 00:21
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JustJeff88 posted:Two questions: Which IWD spells does SCS add, and isn't there a mod to give the druids a more sane experience progression? Here is a list of spells SCS adds from IWD. Note that enemies get these as well and can and will use them. So it's fair that way. Some of the most notable ones are stuff like Entropy Shield and Impervious Sanctity Of Mind which give Divine casters a way to protect themselves against dispels which in the base game they cannot easily do Divine Spells: https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/scs_iwd_desc_divine.html Arcane Spells https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/scs_iwd_desc_arcane.html Not sure about the second question. I actually looked again and Druids and Shamans do unlock level 7 spells at the same xp point (1.5 mil xp). However, after that, Druids need 3 million xp to reach level 15. Shamans at 3 million xp will be level 18. A level 15 Druid will have 1 level 7 spell. A level 18 Shaman I think can know three level 7 spells (plus a free one from the Shaman table) and can cast those 6 times/day. Oddly enough Druids do catch up and start leveling faster than Shamans again because Shamans use the mage xp table which slows down a lot after level 18. 2e xp tables are bizarre
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Jun 17, 2022 00:35
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The weird level progression for druids is a holdover from the ridiculous levelling requirements for them in 2E. IIRC there was a limit on the number of level 13 and 14 druids that could exist so you had to defeat one of the other ones to progress to those levels, and then there was only ever a single level 15 druid in the entire world. Why they chose to keep this in the game in the form of a ridiculously high level 14->15 progression is anyone's guess, but that's where it comes from.
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Jun 17, 2022 01:03
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bike tory posted:The weird level progression for druids is a holdover from the ridiculous levelling requirements for them in 2E. IIRC there was a limit on the number of level 13 and 14 druids that could exist so you had to defeat one of the other ones to progress to those levels, and then there was only ever a single level 15 druid in the entire world. Oh, I am well aware of where it comes from. If anyone played more 2e in the 90s than I, then he's long dead from an overdose of Thac0. As to why they kept it, they kept it for the same reason that they kept a lot of other dumb poo poo: they were being faithful to the source material, for better or (usually) worse. My group used to just put druids on the cleric table, because we found them to be rather weak and tried to make them better via various means. Admittedly all of the rules about rising in the druid hierarchy and so on are good world-building, but mechanically they are rubbish.
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Jun 17, 2022 02:32
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If you have to beat other druids in single combat to advance past level 13 and 14, fighter/druids like Jaheira are really working the system.
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Jun 17, 2022 03:17
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Randallteal posted:If you have to beat other druids in single combat to advance past level 13 and 14, fighter/druids like Jaheira are really working the system. I mean yeah, if you take her to the Druid duels at Trademeet instead of Cernd they’re way easier. This hierarchy thing is in BG2.
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Jun 17, 2022 11:06
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One thing that's frequently forgotten is that the 2e Druids were presented as an example of how to build a specialist cleric. They're presented as much as a template as a class in themself.
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Jun 17, 2022 17:21
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I just looked it up and it was even worse than I remembered. It kicked in at level 12, where there could only be 9 in any one geographic area (a large island, ocean, maybe 1/4 of a continent, etc). Prior to level 12 you weren't even technically a druid but an "initiate". Level 13 was only 3 per area. Level 14, one per area. Level 15 one in the entire world. So advancing beyond level 11 as a druid was just a process of tracking down and murdering higher level druids one-on-one. You couldn't do that until you had enough XP to progress to the next level, and if you lost the fight but survived, you lost 200k XP.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:15
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What happens if you Iago a level 13 Druid to try to kill his level 14 senpai and he loses? Can you take his place without the fight?
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Jun 17, 2022 19:20
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Yeah and I think if one of the other druids died of natural causes or whatever too then you could advance to fill that spot without the trial. Keep in mind, all 2E druids were True Neutral. So there wouldn't have been any that wanted to exploit this system's obvious flaws for personal gain.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:41
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Quick question, no need for details: What are my level break options to more sensibly dualclass a Human Kensai/Thief? ie no ToB Magikarp. I have SoD.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:58
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Level 7 you get the extra half an attack as a fighter, and level 9 you get another proficiency point, so those are your more viable options. Level 9 you'll have your fighter levels back probably by the time you go make it to BG2, or maybe towards the end of SoD.
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Jun 17, 2022 20:06
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Perfect, thank you!
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Jun 17, 2022 20:11
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bike tory posted:Level 7 you get the extra half an attack as a fighter, and level 9 you get another proficiency point, so those are your more viable options. Level 9 you'll have your fighter levels back probably by the time you go make it to BG2, or maybe towards the end of SoD. Can confirm I went Kensai/Thief for last years' run and ended up getting my kensai stuff back roughly 3/4 of the way through SoD. Although I did most sidequests
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Jun 17, 2022 20:16
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bike tory posted:I just looked it up and it was even worse than I remembered. It kicked in at level 12, where there could only be 9 in any one geographic area (a large island, ocean, maybe 1/4 of a continent, etc). Prior to level 12 you weren't even technically a druid but an "initiate". I think that we players sometimes forget how rare high-level adventurers are in general, because that's they role that we always play. I vaguely remember a supplement from 2e, it may even have been the one for super high-level campaigns, that said that a level 20 is about one per one million persons, and these are not worlds with 8~9 billion people on them, more like tens of millions. We just sort of take it for granted, and in reality even a level 8 wizardy, say, is very rare and powerful to the vast majority of people. That said, druid progression still sucks. I would be fine with it if it were optional world building for players who want to climb the hierarcy for RP purposes and perhaps political benefits, but that shouldn't cap their spell and ability progression. They may have done something similar with monks in... 3e??, which is even worse because monks usually suck.
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Jun 17, 2022 20:29
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Ed Greenwood said in an interview that the players he been playing with for 20 years had never gotten above level 9
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Jun 17, 2022 20:45
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Empty Sandwich posted:Ed Greenwood said in an interview that the players he been playing with for 20 years had never gotten above level 9 Ed is quite long in the tooth, and I have a feeling that it was due to them playing the very adversarial flavour of early D&D where the DM was actively trying to kill the characters. No-one in their right mind enjoys that sort of gaming anymore. I understand that high-level early D&D had its issues just like low level, but there is no point in having high-level abilities if nobody ever gets to use them. Personally, my favourite level range was early teens.
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Jun 17, 2022 21:01
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JustJeff88 posted:Ed is quite long in the tooth, and I have a feeling that it was due to them playing the very adversarial flavour of early D&D where the DM was actively trying to kill the characters. No-one in their right mind enjoys that sort of gaming anymore. I understand that high-level early D&D had its issues just like low level, but there is no point in having high-level abilities if nobody ever gets to use them. Personally, my favourite level range was early teens. There's actually an eleventh level character among them in their printed stats (Dove Falconhand in Hall of Heroes, although I don't think that was anyone's PC). We actually have a LOT of play reports and experiences of what it's like to play in Ed Greenwood's games - he punches pretty hard with traps and monsters, but the actual reason characters in his games don't get very high over the long-term is because Ed and his players enjoy doing tons and tons of roleplaying and deep immersion stuff that doesn't result in anyone getting XP and they all like it that way.
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Jun 17, 2022 22:04
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Arivia posted:There's actually an eleventh level character among them in their printed stats (Dove Falconhand in Hall of Heroes, although I don't think that was anyone's PC). We actually have a LOT of play reports and experiences of what it's like to play in Ed Greenwood's games - he punches pretty hard with traps and monsters, but the actual reason characters in his games don't get very high over the long-term is because Ed and his players enjoy doing tons and tons of roleplaying and deep immersion stuff that doesn't result in anyone getting XP and they all like it that way. Well, if that's their favourite flavour of P&PRPG, then so be it, but it's not mine. Our groups were light on roleplay, high on exploration, moderate intrigue and moderate combat except for that campaign in Myth Drannor. I personally like getting new abilities; that's my carrot, if you will.
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Jun 17, 2022 22:26
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DeadButDelicious posted:Can confirm I went Kensai/Thief for last years' run and ended up getting my kensai stuff back roughly 3/4 of the way through SoD. Although I did most sidequests IIRC he level cap for SOD is 500k, which is exactly the amount you need to get your fighter levels back at Kensai 9 / Thief 10
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Jun 17, 2022 22:28
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Arivia posted:We actually have a LOT of play reports and experiences of what it's like to play in Ed Greenwood's games - he punches pretty hard with traps and monsters, but the actual reason characters in his games don't get very high over the long-term is because Ed and his players enjoy doing tons and tons of roleplaying and deep immersion stuff that doesn't result in anyone getting XP and they all like it that way. I should've said that I wasn't advocating for that play style, but I found it interesting as hell. there was an almost moral quality in the way earlier editions viewed rewards like treasure and XP. a lot of "magic should be incredibly rare always*" kind of stuff that in 2e wasn't adversarial but did feel both prescriptive and proscriptive. there was a sense that you could be doing it wrong. it kind of took my friend group and me a while to shake that idea. but we to this day make fun of the group who was like "'ego whip,' that sounds cool, here's what it probably does." anyway, yeah, I like to gain levels and poo poo *"except in that one Venice analogue in Mystara"
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Jun 17, 2022 22:59
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A lot of early D&D was trying to replicate the narrative throughline of sword and sorcery stories and presumed that players would have that context. When viewed as purely a set of system rules, the game incentivizes a very different style of play.
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Jun 18, 2022 02:50
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JustJeff88 posted:I think that we players sometimes forget how rare high-level adventurers are in general, because that's they role that we always play. I vaguely remember a supplement from 2e, it may even have been the one for super high-level campaigns, that said that a level 20 is about one per one million persons, and these are not worlds with 8~9 billion people on them, more like tens of millions. We just sort of take it for granted, and in reality even a level 8 wizardy, say, is very rare and powerful to the vast majority of people. In Faerun/the BG world you can't walk down the street without tripping over a high level NPC. In addition to ubiquitous adventuring parties, high level NPCs are running nations and city states as well as hanging out in barns or whatever throughout the world. Faerun is a pretty ridiculous setting though.
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Jun 18, 2022 03:27
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Dillbag posted:IIRC he level cap for SOD is 500k, which is exactly the amount you need to get your fighter levels back at Kensai 9 / Thief 10 it is indeed 500k so this is perfect 👍
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Jun 18, 2022 03:39
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caedwalla posted:In Faerun/the BG world you can't walk down the street without tripping over a high level NPC. In addition to ubiquitous adventuring parties, high level NPCs are running nations and city states as well as hanging out in barns or whatever throughout the world. Believe it or not, according to the supplement Spells & Magic (I believe) from 2e, Faerune is considered an average magic world. It doesn't seem that way from the player perspective, though, even if it is a far cry from ancient Netheril where chambermaids used spells to dust.
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Jun 18, 2022 03:46
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Like anything, it depends on what edition/supplement/campaign you're looking at. Even just in the Baldur's Gate games, the first game seems moderately low magic all-and-all while Shadows of Amn has a Lich in every other tavern.
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Jun 18, 2022 03:52
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Schwarzwald posted:Like anything, it depends on what edition/supplement/campaign you're looking at. Even just in the Baldur's Gate games, the first game seems moderately low magic all-and-all while Shadows of Amn has a Lich in every other tavern. True, the change in enemy power is as glaringly full of contrast as that of character power but, as many have said, it feels really good to go from plunking hobgoblins with arrows and 1 sleep spell to calling down Comets on demogorgon. Oddly specific, but I found my high-level 2e good and they establish a baseline of one level 18 character per 1,310,720 humanoids, which is oddly specific.
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Jun 18, 2022 04:14
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I'm about to start a Planescape: Torment game and was wondering if anyone had character build suggestions. I could just do the DSimpson Wis18 build again; but, if there are funner builds, I'm all for it.
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Jun 19, 2022 14:59
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The one time I've actually beat the game I did it as a fighter. Beating people to death with your own severed arm, then later an axe (maybe hammer) called "Reason" is pretty fun. "What shall we do?" "Surely they'll listen to Reason" I still had a high Wisdom and used the DSimpson guide a lot
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Jun 19, 2022 15:29
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There aren't any builds really. 18 WIS not only unlocks a ton of dialogue options, but it gives extra experience too, which turns into more levels and thus more stat points to put elsewhere.
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Jun 19, 2022 15:30
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Suspicious posted:There aren't any builds really. 18 WIS not only unlocks a ton of dialogue options, but it gives extra experience too, which turns into more levels and thus more stat points to put elsewhere. Some would call that unimaginative, but given how many games are based around physical stats I am okay with Torment being entirely about mages with high Wis/Cha/Int. Appropriate for a game that muses about the nature of the universe, free will and the like.
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Jun 19, 2022 16:24
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That said I did write myself a "perfect" Torment run guide where the goal was 100% while still having every possible option available to me. I gotta find it again.
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Jun 19, 2022 16:30
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Suspicious posted:That said I did write myself a "perfect" Torment run guide where the goal was 100% while still having every possible option available to me. I gotta find it again. I'd read it!
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Jun 19, 2022 16:32
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