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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The “ST” never actually needed to be a trilogy in the first place; Disney could have very easily continued into Episode 10, 11, 12, 13, etc.. Instead, they got to 9, called it “The Skywalker Saga”, and slammed the brakes - leaving no space for numbered prequels between 6 & 7 in the process. This is certainly because their goal was to get that poo poo out of the way as soon as possible - switching over to the “Star Wars Stories” format, since nobody really cares if a Solo trilogy never materializes. there was a rumor from the guy who got TLJ right except for the stuff we know was added in late saying that, at least early on, there were plans for an episode 10 at least
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Jun 25, 2022 12:57
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I just wish this franchise would die already.
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Jun 25, 2022 14:10
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It already has. It's just a shambling corpse now.
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Jun 25, 2022 14:35
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In the way people tell Jason Voorhees to die already, I mean.
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Jun 25, 2022 14:36
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Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
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Jun 25, 2022 15:40
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Just realised today it's "your insight serves you well" and not "your insides"
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Jun 25, 2022 15:54
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sleep with the vicious posted:In retrospect, this is probably one of the biggest business mistakes of all time - they left billions of dollars on the table by not starting with 10-11-12 then doing 7-8-9 as dual prequel/sequels Right up there with Calvinballing a loving trilogy of films with a rabid fanbase and botching it so loving badly it's one step above Game of Thrones in pop culture at the moment. I'm a weekend DM and I care more about my stories and characters and, just, poo poo making sense than this multinational monster with unlimited money. Although I dunno, might be fun to run a 3-shot where the pitch is "each adventure invalidates everything that happened last time" and there are a lot of intriguing mystery boxes that take three sessions to open. Each one has a note that says, "LOOK IN THE NEXT BOX!" and nothing else.
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Jun 25, 2022 16:55
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Captain Splendid posted:Just realised today it's "your insight serves you well" and not "your insides" Luke takes a probiotic so this is also true.
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Jun 25, 2022 18:03
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JonathonSpectre posted:Right up there with Calvinballing a loving trilogy of films with a rabid fanbase and botching it so loving badly it's one step above Game of Thrones in pop culture at the moment. For a huge entertainment company, things making sense or being good isn't the goal. They operate according to a Lovecraftian logic that we can only guess at
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Jun 25, 2022 20:36
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Luke takes a probiotic so this is also true. A midichlorian-rich culture to keep you from having to use the force
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Jun 25, 2022 20:43
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I think you only have 2 real options when you goto expand already established characters. You go the Solo/R1 route where you fill in the backstory leading up to the thing that already happened. Or you go the sequel route where you pick back up with a character. Both of which kinda blow. Of the two I guess I would have leaned into the rouge one lane, because when it's done well it's not that bad..but when it's done poorly it's mind numbing (solo, boba fett, obi) The boba fett show should have been his exploits as a bounty hunter leading up to when you're (barely) introduced to him in the first films. Stylistically make it in the style of 70's cop shows as an analog to 60s westerns and the Mandolorian show. Don't get locked into having to have temuera, no one will give a poo poo if you cast younger and it's done well (see: donald glover, and ignore the film he was in). This should have been a no-brainer. The obi-wan show should have focused on the period that hasn't been covered by cartoons/prequels so it's not redundant and has no stakes. Just come up with something interesting to explain more of what shaped this character leading into EP1. Or ya know, just don't keep mining the same poo poo in more and more diluted forms hoping no one will notice. Disney went hard on the high republic poo poo in print, just start whoring that out since it has no connection to anything else and you might get some innovation by default.
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Jun 25, 2022 21:27
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zer0spunk posted:I think you only have 2 real options when you goto expand already established characters. You go the Solo/R1 route where you fill in the backstory leading up to the thing that already happened. Or you go the sequel route where you pick back up with a character. lmao I guess you are referring to Star Wars movies exclusively, but that's not what your opening there says and I just want to point you in the general direction of movie history in general to show you how ridiculous you sound. There is an abundance of prequels and sequels that are good. The current problem with Star Wars isn't a problem inherent to making a sequel or a prequel.
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Jun 25, 2022 21:30
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Grendels Dad posted:lmao yes I'm exclusively referring to star wars, in this, the star wars thread...hence the examples being star wars things. but ok, go on
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Jun 25, 2022 21:33
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zer0spunk posted:yes I'm exclusively referring to star wars, in this, the star wars thread...hence the examples being star wars things. but ok, go on Maybe don't make your introductory sentence a general statement then, doofus.
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Jun 25, 2022 21:38
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Grendels Dad posted:Maybe don't make your introductory sentence a general statement then, doofus. I realize this is a star wars thread, so maybe it needed to be in exposition for you to get it. Re-read my whole post, but imagine I'm saying it to Natalie Portman on a poorly green-screened "balcony" And to indulge your weird ignore what i said all-of-movie tangent...I'd actually argue that prequels and later-quels are notoriously lovely and the rare good ones are the minority
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Jun 25, 2022 21:40
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you cant argue in here this is the star wars thread
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Jun 25, 2022 21:45
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zer0spunk posted:I realize this is a star wars thread, so maybe it needed to be in exposition for you to get it. I tried to read and then re-read your post, it's loving awful. You say prequels are generally awful, then expect me to read through your lovely ideas for prequel shows. Who do you think wants to read that after such an introduction? What is even the point of your post? edit: I'm probably going to eat a probation if I keep engaging in this, I swear to god Star Wars fans are the special kind of idiotic that get me this angry. Disengage. Grendels Dad fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 21:50
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Grendels Dad posted:I tried to read and then re-read your post, it's loving awful. You say prequels are generally awful, then expect me to read through your lovely ideas for prequel shows. Who do you think wants to read that after such an introduction? What is even the point of your post? i mean, aside from this flirting you're doing with me, did you want to actually discuss any points i was making or just, flail around some more? your meta criticism of my criticism is really gripping stuff, in this, the star wars thread thoughts on andor??
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Jun 25, 2022 21:54
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zer0spunk posted:I realize this is a star wars thread, so maybe it needed to be in exposition for you to get it. I will simply imagine that your posts are efficiently and poetically written dialogue delivered by accomplished actors recorded using pioneering digital film techniques
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Jun 25, 2022 23:14
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I’m watching Sanjuro for the first time and it’s 100% what they should have ripped off for the Obi Wan show. Toshiro Mifune’s character would have been the perfect role for Obi-Wan’s character at that point in his life. Sorry to fan-tasize, but a big thing that I think holds back Disney Star Wars is that they don’t draw from old genre pictures anymore. They just pull from itself or things Star Wars directly influenced.
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Jun 26, 2022 01:53
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Kart Barfunkel posted:I’m watching Sanjuro for the first time and it’s 100% what they should have ripped off for the Obi Wan show. Toshiro Mifune’s character would have been the perfect role for Obi-Wan’s character at that point in his life. There is a video where some of the designers at Lucasfilm go through the various starfighters and talk about the inspiration, and with some exceptions the OT/PT stuff has outside inspirations (or at least shows a clear design trend with existing stuff) while the ST vehicles just have new hats.
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Jun 26, 2022 02:02
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Kart Barfunkel posted:I’m watching Sanjuro for the first time and it’s 100% what they should have ripped off for the Obi Wan show. Toshiro Mifune’s character would have been the perfect role for Obi-Wan’s character at that point in his life. Yeah, that's basically why Mandalorian was well received, and Rogue One- they drew on poo poo that wasn't just Star Wars and actually had ideas and imagery they can use, while Disney itself can't comprehend that. (ironically, given literally the entirety of their big name catalogue)
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Jun 26, 2022 02:03
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I want a star wars rashoman of trying to figure out what the gently caress jar jar is telling us about a dead sith
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Jun 26, 2022 02:10
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Grendels Dad posted:I tried to read and then re-read your post, it's loving awful. You say prequels are generally awful, then expect me to read through your lovely ideas for prequel shows. Who do you think wants to read that after such an introduction? What is even the point of your post? Pop off kinggg
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Jun 26, 2022 03:10
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Valve Steam Deck posted:Thinking about it, the sequel trilogy really does leave a wide enough gap to set another entire prequel trilogy in (30+ years?), which is currently where Mando is playing around in. It would have been wild if they went with Episode 10-11-12 and just had everyone wondering "ok where is 7-8-9?" The prequel trilogy is 7-8-9, since TFA is, thematically, the sequel to Episode 3. “This will begin to make things right,” etc. The implication was, initially, that the New Republic failed in pretty much exactly the same way as the previous Republic. So, in this sense, TFA is the tenth film: 1,2,3 - 4,5,6 - 1,2,3 - 10,11,12 We just skip one set of prequels because they’re theoretically redundant. However, it was immediately apparent that the downfall of the New Republic actually had very little in common with the previous one. The First Order is very, very obviously distinct from the Confederacy, and must be understood differently. (This is where the story actually breaks down, as the narrative is not about the characters learning from past mistakes, but about the characters learning absolutely nothing. Terrio did what he could with part 3, but the dominant message of the “ST” is the winking assertion that Star Wars under Disney will be the brand of toxic positivity, forever.) So, anyways, the gap in the plot between Episodes 6 and 7 - the ‘missing’ trilogy - represents a traumatic rupture in the fabric of Star Wars that Disney will forever circle around but never come to terms with. The failure of the New Republic is downright incomprehensible, as we’re given dozens of conflicting explanations from different sources - none of them truly making sense. The Obiwan show is only the most recent such explanation.
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Jun 26, 2022 03:31
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Wait what did Obi wan have to do with explaining the new republic?
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Jun 26, 2022 04:57
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galagazombie posted:Wait what did Obi wan have to do with explaining the new republic? The Obiwan Show introduces The Inquisition, a weird autonomous organization within the Empire that is effectively identical to the First Order (“dark side” peeps who aren’t technically Sith who follow the dumb version of Vader, defined solely by their hatred of Jedis, working on covert midichlorian experiments...). The show also introduces “The Path” - a Jedi-worshipping precursor to the Rebellion that has much more in common with the Resistance than anything in the OT. This all sets up the conflict in Episode 7.
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Jun 26, 2022 05:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Obiwan Show introduces The Inquisition, a weird autonomous organization within the Empire that is effectively identical to the First Order (“dark side” peeps who aren’t technically Sith who follow the dumb version of Vader, defined solely by their hatred of Jedis, working on covert midichlorian experiments...). SMG is absolutely right. In ANH when the heroes arrive at the Rebel Base it isn't mentioned at all that Luke is force sensitive and has had a few hours training from the legendary Obi-Wan Kenobi. The pilots get told 'May the force be with you' as they finish their briefing which indicates that the Rebels has some connection to the old faith, as opposed to the atheistic Empire, but the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire is primarily about liberty and democracy, while Luke's conflict with Vader and the Emperor is basically a parallel shadow war that arguably nobody else knows is going on (nobody is present to witness any of their confrontations).
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Jun 26, 2022 06:23
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I mean this would require planning. Disney has a plan - make money. It's going rather well. Unlike Lucas they don't care about art or storytelling, and while the various fans they've hired probably think they do they're obviously more preoccupied with fixing Lucas' "mistakes" than asking themselves what star wars is about. 2house2fly posted:For a huge entertainment company, things making sense or being good isn't the goal. They operate according to a Lovecraftian logic that we can only guess at The profit motive is the real unthinking horror!
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Jun 26, 2022 08:11
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Blood Boils posted:Disney has a plan - make money. It's going rather well. Unlike Lucas they don't care about art or storytelling, and while the various fans they've hired probably think they do they're obviously more preoccupied with fixing Lucas' "mistakes" than asking themselves what star wars is about. I mean, I get that this thread is down on Disney anyway, but can we maybe not pretend that George loving Lucas of all people was some kind of pure artistic soul who just cared about stories and not merchandising or money? This weird revisionism that the prequels were all really good, actually and it's just the new stuff that's dogshit is too much for my aging heart to take at times.
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Jun 26, 2022 10:01
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There have been a few occasions in which George Lucas admitted that he was knowingly making less than optimally marketable artistic decisions in his movies. Although a billionaire on the basis of sales of Star Wars merchandise, it is demonstrable that when art and business came into conflict, he chose art at least some of the time. To the extent that it is revisionist to praise the Star Wars prequels, it is revisionism that predates the sale of Lucasfilm to Disney.
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Jun 26, 2022 10:15
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I mean the plan was making enomous bags of money off the back of telling a story that would define the monomyth for the modern era. You get to walk both sides of the road doing that successfully.
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Jun 26, 2022 10:30
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CaptainApathyUK posted:I mean, I get that this thread is down on Disney anyway, but can we maybe not pretend that George loving Lucas of all people was some kind of pure artistic soul who just cared about stories and not merchandising or money?
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Jun 26, 2022 10:37
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Lucas clearly also had a lot of fun filling the movies with things that would make for cool toys.
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Jun 26, 2022 10:53
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zer0spunk posted:I think you only have 2 real options when you goto expand already established characters. You go the Solo/R1 route where you fill in the backstory leading up to the thing that already happened. Or you go the sequel route where you pick back up with a character. Why do you think this? There's no reason a Boba Fett story couldn't have been 3:10 to Yuma in space—just an episodic slice-of-life adventure of Fett collecting on a tough bounty. Solo could have been Rounders in space—Han and Lando getting out of a tough jam against some space gangsters. Kenobi could have been Yojimbo in space, Obi-Wan getting caught up a tough gang war, forced into being a hero again. Then you can tell infinite stories from these characters lives because not every one has to be the most important thing that ever happened to them. Han probably has hundreds of scrapes he got into over the years, and each one of those could be its own small but well-told story—this one is The Color of Money, this one is Ocean's Eleven, this one is Top Gun. In each one he can learn a single lesson to further his character journey—this is the time he learned to trust his partners on a job. This is the time he learned that some jobs aren't worth selling out your ideals. This is the time he learned to be a bit less cynical and fatalistic. This is the time he learned not to mix business with pleasure. A character doesn't have to start and end a story as a completely different person to have a character arc, they just need to change in some way that is meaningful to the story. It's the reason that Rogue One is the only one of these things to arguably work, because it's a story about a situation rather than a character. It's narrative-first, where the characters exist to serve the story rather than the other way around. It's storytelling 101 and it's wildly frustrating that Disney can't seem to get it into their skulls. But to them these aren't narratives, they're backstories. Just vehicles to give people a cheap theme park thrill and sell some new toys on the other end. Mandalorian season 1 more or less achieved the the narrative-first goal, but season 2 lost the thread with its connected universe backdoor pilot nonsense. Clone Wars was the perfect model of how to do a semi-serialized story with preexisting characters, as was Young Indiana Jones before it. As much as the popular narrative at the time was that the episodes I-III were unnecessary gap-filters, I think it's pretty obvious in retrospect that Lucas found a vital narrative purpose for those films to exist. He understands prequels in a way that Disney doesn't, and from the details of his sequel trilogy that have come out which seems to have an actual thematic and narrative purpose it would be driving toward, it sounds like he understands sequels in a way they don't, too. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 13:16
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Kart Barfunkel posted:I’m watching Sanjuro for the first time and it’s 100% what they should have ripped off for the Obi Wan show. Toshiro Mifune’s character would have been the perfect role for Obi-Wan’s character at that point in his life. The last Jedi most definitely had clear and direct influence from genre films to the point of straight up quoting entire scenes, like Wings.
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Jun 26, 2022 14:06
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Yeah there is some compilation video on the net of all the homages tlj has and its a lot. The prequels are very good. The sequels are mostly bad. The ot is mostly good.
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Jun 26, 2022 14:33
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feedmyleg posted:Why do you think this? There's no reason a Boba Fett story couldn't have been 3:10 to Yuma in space—just an episodic slice-of-life adventure of Fett collecting on a tough bounty. What was the deal with this anyway? I know it was an insanely rushed production but on top of that Boba Fett is so like, weirdly passive throughout it. It felt like they already started filming and Disney was like "wait aren't crime lords BAD people? we can't have our main character kill people!!!" and the entire series had to be built around that in real time with whatever they already had. Like you say for something just meant to be six episodes they should have picked a good western or crime flick and aped it. Or hell if they did want it to just be on Tatooine with no travel at all just focus on him hanging with the Tuskens getting these rear end in a top hat spice runners off of their turf.
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Jun 26, 2022 14:40
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Alchenar posted:SMG is absolutely right. In ANH when the heroes arrive at the Rebel Base it isn't mentioned at all that Luke is force sensitive and has had a few hours training from the legendary Obi-Wan Kenobi. The pilots get told 'May the force be with you' as they finish their briefing which indicates that the Rebels has some connection to the old faith, as opposed to the atheistic Empire, but the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire is primarily about liberty and democracy, while Luke's conflict with Vader and the Emperor is basically a parallel shadow war that arguably nobody else knows is going on (nobody is present to witness any of their confrontations). Yeah and, in this way, The Obiwan Show frames the ST as a return to "original values" - the restoration of a past that never really existed. General Leia's purpose in starting the Resistance is to say that the Rebel Alliance wasn't spiritual enough with this 'democracy' stuff, having lost sight of its original purpose: supporting the Jedi Order! So, as I've noted in the past, Leia's Resistance is ideologically aligned with Count Dooku and Mace Windu, who sought a benevolent Jedi rule. A blue Liam Neeson materializing at the end of Obiwan Show is a bizarre non-sequitur in the show itself, but his resurrection is contextualized by the prequels: Dooku: "You forget that [Qui-Gon Jinn] was once my apprentice, just as you were once his. He knew all about the corruption in the Senate... but he wouldn't have gone along with it if he had learned the truth, as I have." Dooku is telling the truth in this scene Quigon tolerated the corrupt democracy, because he thought it was to the benefit of the Jedi Order. If he knew the Jedi were not benefiting, Quigon would have sided with the Separatists. So it is with Leia in Episode 7 - with the added fact that Snoke isn't a Sith and doesn't bother to hide his 'dark' theology. Snoke openly rose to power through democratic elections within the New Republic, which is why Leia's stuck running this fringe reactionary group that the New Republican party publicly disavows.
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Jun 26, 2022 15:26
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Snoke openly rose to power through democratic elections within the New Republic, which is why Leia's stuck running this fringe reactionary group that the New Republican party publicly disavows. Did I miss a comic or novel that expounds on this?
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Jun 26, 2022 20:59
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