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thrawn527 posted:The original point was that Palpatine wanted Luke to kill him. My original point was that no, he wanted Luke to kill Vader and take his place, as this is in the plain text. It's not that Palpatine necessarily wants to be killed so much that I don't think he'd be concerned if he did (so long as it happens in the appropriate manner).
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Jul 6, 2022 20:12
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Schwarzwald posted:It's not that Palpatine necessarily wants to be killed so much that I don't think he'd be concerned if he did (so long as it happens in the appropriate manner). If, "It's not that Palpatine necessarily wants to be killed" is what you meant by this: Schwarzwald posted:I occasion hear someone argue that the Emperor didn't really want Luke to kill him, that there must have been some unseen protection in place to keep Luke from just stabbing the guy, and I've never found it convincing.The Emperor is psyched to have Luke assassinate him! Even if it isn't read as a ritual so to speak, he clearly views it as validation of his philosophy and (perhaps) a worthy exclamation point to his long reign. ...then I'll chock it up to my reading comprehension skills, say my mistake, and move on. Just not how I read it.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:18
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Schwarzwald posted:It's not that Palpatine necessarily wants to be killed so much that I don't think he'd be concerned if he did (so long as it happens in the appropriate manner). Somebody linked this in PYF IIRC, and it's really the best explanation for Palpatine in ROTJ and TROS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sFbLppuhhs
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Jul 6, 2022 20:30
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thrawn527 posted:If, "It's not that Palpatine necessarily wants to be killed" is what you meant by this: To clarify, I don't think the Emperor expects Luke to straight up murk him, but if he does — great! Mission complete! Sheev dies content knowing his philosophy/the forces of evil will endure.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:37
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galagazombie posted:Palpatine in the throne room is also the only time anyone in the entire trilogy acknowledges Luke as a Jedi. It’s a plot point that Obi and Yoda refuse to call him a Jedi, Yoda outright laughs, Han takes Luke’s proclamation of Jediness as a sign of madness. It’s becomes especially notable given what we learn Palpatine thinks of the Jedi in RotS (They’re no different from the Sith, they’re hypocrites who just seek power like he does etc). You get the impression he’s basically the Joker and believes deep down everyone exists in total depravity and all pretentions of love and higher ideals are cynical lies. And then Luke comes and proves him wrong. When he says “So be it, Jedi.” you now get the impression That Luke is the first real Jedi Palpatine has ever met. this in combination with an unshakable, irrational faith in vader as his father, so unshakable that both Darth Vader the implacable cyborg zombie and Anakin the hosed up idiot stuck in that suit go 'dang my son is right' and throw palpatine into a hole
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Jul 6, 2022 20:42
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Schwarzwald posted:To clarify, I don't think the Emperor expects Luke to straight up murk him, but if he does — great! Mission complete! Sheev dies content knowing his philosophy/the forces of evil will endure. Thats what dont make sense to me (its been a while I watched the OT though): why Luke killing the Emperor would necessarly mean Luke turned to the dark side? We see Jedi, and Luke himself, kill plenty of people in those movies Why killing random stormtroopers is ok and never questioned but killing their boss would mean violence and the dark side won etc?
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Jul 6, 2022 20:54
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If Luke killed the Emperor then Darth Vader would say "ok, that's what i wanted you to do back in the last movie, well done" and they'd rule the galaxy as father and son
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Jul 6, 2022 21:05
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All Luke's other kills were done with the correct detached mindset. He probably could have been clear to kill the emperor if he had been able to do it without being pissed off, but he couldn't rise to that level so the correct action was to take the L. If your thought in response is that this is extremely dumb, I'm not going to disagree. Interestingly it's basically the same arbitrary mindset policing rose is all about in star wars 8, so you can't accuse rian of not communing with the material there
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Jul 6, 2022 21:06
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Alright, kinda makes sense
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Jul 6, 2022 21:33
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The way I always understood the Jedi and if/when they should kill is to do it as a last resort. Obi-Wan doesn't kill the Sandpeople who attack Luke, or the criminals with the death sentence on twelve systems who try to attack Luke, or the Stormtroopers in his way when he's trying to turn off the tractor beam. Yeah, Obi-Wan helps Luke blow up the Death Star, but they have no other choice because they are about to wipe out the Rebels and unleash a superweapon on the galaxy. Luke doesn't kill the Wampa that tries to eat him because the Wampa is doing what Wampas do (eat fools), but he kills Imperials because they are trying to wipe out the Rebels. When Luke goes out to try and kill Vader out of anger/fear, he gets wrecked because a) Vader is bigger and stronger and b) Luke doesn't give in to the Dark Side. Luke doesn't kill Jabba's goons on his way to the palace because he doesn't have to, but he kills the Rancor and Jabba's goons at the Sarlacc Pit because there is no other choice. Luke tries to kill Palpatine on the Death Star out of fear, which is him giving in to the Dark Side. He fights Vader while struggling with his fear for his friends and his hatred of the Emperor, at one point stopping and hiding because he does not want to fight his father. Luke wrecks Vader after giving in to his anger, but realizes he's going down the same path that his father did once he cuts off Vader's hand. He throws away the saber in defiance of Palpatine's desire for him to kill his father out of hatred and become his new apprentice. Luke doesn't need to kill Vader, he doesn't need to kill Palpatine. His friends are about to blow up the Death Star. That doesn't mean circumstances can't change. Palpatine zaps Luke's rear end, and a fearful Luke cries out for help. Vader realizes that his so-called "master" is about to kill his son, the only person in the galaxy who sees him as something more than a mechanical monster. He snaps, and does one final act of good by chucking Palpatine down the pit. He kills Palpatine because he has no other choice, and Vader acts like a Jedi once more before he dies. You are welcome to laugh or post  at me, but this is how I choose to see Star Wars and the Original Trilogy. They are movies about the importance of caring, the power of friendship, and choosing to do good over evil.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:40
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Basebf555 posted:Did people really misunderstand it though? I mean, Luke throwing away the lightsaber is an iconic moment and his refusal to kill Vader is very clearly shown to be the right decision. Who were these people that were confused about that? The very common (mis)interpretation is that Luke is refusing to kill Anakin, but remains unwavering in his hatred of Vader. Like, “even though I despise you with every fibre of my being, Vader, I will spare you to protect my beloved father Anakin.” So Vader dies, and it’s Anakin whose spirit lives on (alongside noted assholes Obiwan and Yoda). This (mis)interpretation was interrogated/satirized in the prequels, then ‘canonized’ in the Disney stuff.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:58
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Bogus Adventure posted:The way I always understood the Jedi and if/when they should kill is to do it as a last resort. Obi-Wan doesn't kill the Sandpeople who attack Luke, or the criminals with the death sentence on twelve systems who try to attack Luke, or the Stormtroopers in his way when he's trying to turn off the tractor beam. Yeah, Obi-Wan helps Luke blow up the Death Star, but they have no other choice because they are about to wipe out the Rebels and unleash a superweapon on the galaxy. Luke doesn't kill the Wampa that tries to eat him because the Wampa is doing what Wampas do (eat fools), but he kills Imperials because they are trying to wipe out the Rebels. When Luke goes out to try and kill Vader out of anger/fear, he gets wrecked because a) Vader is bigger and stronger and b) Luke doesn't give in to the Dark Side. Luke doesn't kill Jabba's goons on his way to the palace because he doesn't have to, but he kills the Rancor and Jabba's goons at the Sarlacc Pit because there is no other choice. Luke tries to kill Palpatine on the Death Star out of fear, which is him giving in to the Dark Side. He fights Vader while struggling with his fear for his friends and his hatred of the Emperor, at one point stopping and hiding because he does not want to fight his father. Luke wrecks Vader after giving in to his anger, but realizes he's going down the same path that his father did once he cuts off Vader's hand. He throws away the saber in defiance of Palpatine's desire for him to kill his father out of hatred and become his new apprentice. Luke doesn't need to kill Vader, he doesn't need to kill Palpatine. His friends are about to blow up the Death Star. Obviously this would be a lot more pleasant and heartening than my read. I think you did a good job arguing it. But it's really ambiguous whether luke killed jabba's pig guys, and even if he didn't he was way out of line to choke them- unless the fact that he was doing it calmly was what made it OK. I don't know a ton about bushido, maybe I'm oversimplifying, but it kind of reminds me of what I understand about eg the hagakure flavor, as a philosophy basically based on your mindset and not your actions. In that flavor of bushido it's about acting with a readiness to die, for the jedi it's about acting without feeling anger. The actions themselves are kinda secondary to having the appropriate internal state
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Jul 6, 2022 22:00
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Bogus Adventure posted:The way I always understood the Jedi and if/when they should kill is to do it as a last resort. Obi-Wan doesn't kill the Sandpeople who attack Luke, or the criminals with the death sentence on twelve systems who try to attack Luke, or the Stormtroopers in his way when he's trying to turn off the tractor beam. Yeah, Obi-Wan helps Luke blow up the Death Star, but they have no other choice because they are about to wipe out the Rebels and unleash a superweapon on the galaxy. Luke doesn't kill the Wampa that tries to eat him because the Wampa is doing what Wampas do (eat fools), but he kills Imperials because they are trying to wipe out the Rebels. When Luke goes out to try and kill Vader out of anger/fear, he gets wrecked because a) Vader is bigger and stronger and b) Luke doesn't give in to the Dark Side. Luke doesn't kill Jabba's goons on his way to the palace because he doesn't have to, but he kills the Rancor and Jabba's goons at the Sarlacc Pit because there is no other choice. Luke tries to kill Palpatine on the Death Star out of fear, which is him giving in to the Dark Side. He fights Vader while struggling with his fear for his friends and his hatred of the Emperor, at one point stopping and hiding because he does not want to fight his father. Luke wrecks Vader after giving in to his anger, but realizes he's going down the same path that his father did once he cuts off Vader's hand. He throws away the saber in defiance of Palpatine's desire for him to kill his father out of hatred and become his new apprentice. Luke doesn't need to kill Vader, he doesn't need to kill Palpatine. His friends are about to blow up the Death Star. Is a good explanation But two things: 1) Luke does not knows for sure his friends are going to blow up the death star, the plan might fail and iirc it looked like it was going to fail at that point 2) even if the plan suceeds, if the Emperor had survived, he could easily flee the death star before it blew, just like Luke himself did (lets ignore the fact that he survived anyway and somehow return on Ep 9). And if he fled, the war would not be over and they would be back where they were when they destroyed Death Star 1 Wouldn't that be a good enough reason to need to kill the Emperor anyway?
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Jul 6, 2022 22:03
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The very common (mis)interpretation is that Luke is refusing to kill Anakin, but remains unwavering in his hatred of Vader. Is this a Disney misinterpretation if Hayden Anakin appeared near (rear end in a top hat) Obiwan and Yoda under George Lucas' tutelage? According to Lucas, Vader dies, and Anakin lives on. That's Lucas' ultimate vision, right? Lucan canonized that, not Disney, with one of his DVD releases.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:06
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No Mods No Masters posted:Obviously this would be a lot more pleasant and heartening than my read. I think you did a good job arguing it. But it's really ambiguous whether luke killed jabba's pig guys, and even if he didn't he was way out of line to choke them- unless the fact that he was doing it calmly was what made it OK. You may very well be right since George Lucas got a lot of his inspiration from samurai films and lore. I think both of our views are mostly compatible, but that does make sense about the mindset being important.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:07
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Elias_Maluco posted:Is a good explanation Luke could capture him so that Palpatine is forced to stand trial for war crimes against the galaxy. Luke could also just keep the Emperor there so that they both die. Or he could kill him. Like I said, the circumstances can change.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:12
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Bogus Adventure posted:Luke could capture him so that Palpatine is forced to stand trial for war crimes against the galaxy. Luke could also just keep the Emperor there so that they both die. Or he could kill him. Like I said, the circumstances can change. Agreed but at that point he just threw away his weapon to let the emperor kill him, which would not make sense if he intended to take him prisoner or even delay him to make sure he wont flee. I only makes sense to me if he knew (or hoped) Vader would stand up and save him like he did Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 22:17
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Elias_Maluco posted:Agreed but at that point he just threw away his weapon to let the emperor kill him, which would not make sense if he intended to take him prisoner or even delay him to make sure he wont flee. I only makes sense to me if he knew (or hoped) Vader would stand up and save him I didn't interpret it as Luke letting the Emperor kill him. I saw it more as an act of defiance against Palpatine's command for Luke to kill Vader. I don't think Luke realized Palpatine could zap him with the Force. Until that moment, he's just staring at a really old dude who can barely walk. He looks pretty surprised, and spends the rest of the scene calling for his father to help him.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:21
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Bogus Adventure posted:I didn't interpret it as Luke letting the Emperor kill him. I saw it more as an act of defiance against Palpatine's command for Luke to kill Vader. I don't think Luke realized Palpatine could zap him with the Force. Until that moment, he's just staring at a really old dude who can barely walk. He looks pretty surprised, and spends the rest of the scene calling for his father to help him. Well, might be. I understand he was defiying his order to kill Vader, but I had the impression that by that point Luke had to know and/or feel the emperor was a powerful sith lord, much more than Vader himself
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Jul 6, 2022 22:27
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Bogus Adventure posted:I didn't interpret it as Luke letting the Emperor kill him. I saw it more as an act of defiance against Palpatine's command for Luke to kill Vader. I don't think Luke realized Palpatine could zap him with the Force. Until that moment, he's just staring at a really old dude who can barely walk. He looks pretty surprised, and spends the rest of the scene calling for his father to help him. Same, knowing Palpatine is a big deal with regard to being evil is one thing but his being able to shoot lightning was definitely meant as a surprise for Luke as much as the audience. If Palpatine was just like a Vader+ who could hurl objects around the room at him and stuff like that Luke probably would held out for a moment or two until Palpatine passed out from exhaustion, and that's surely what Luke and the audience are meant to have in mind up until that point, that Palpatine was an idealogical threat and not a physical one.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:49
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Bogus Adventure posted:The way I always understood the Jedi and if/when they should kill is to do it as a last resort. Obi-Wan doesn't kill the Sandpeople who attack Luke, or the criminals with the death sentence on twelve systems who try to attack Luke, or the Stormtroopers in his way when he's trying to turn off the tractor beam. Yeah, Obi-Wan helps Luke blow up the Death Star, but they have no other choice because they are about to wipe out the Rebels and unleash a superweapon on the galaxy. Luke doesn't kill the Wampa that tries to eat him because the Wampa is doing what Wampas do (eat fools), but he kills Imperials because they are trying to wipe out the Rebels. Seems like the definition of a ‘last resort’ is fairly arbitrary! thrawn527 posted:Is this a Disney misinterpretation if Hayden Anakin appeared near (rear end in a top hat) Obiwan and Yoda under George Lucas' tutelage? According to Lucas, Vader dies, and Anakin lives on. That's Lucas' ultimate vision, right? Lucan canonized that, not Disney, with one of his DVD releases. Anakin does live on in Luke’s memory/imagination, but that’s a very loaded image given the context of Anakin’s fascism. It demands interpretation! When the trio of dead Jedi show up at the end of the film, with the big smiles, I believe that it’s because they are glad to be dead.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:51
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For these doctrinal questions, I feel that it's always best to refer to the source material. In this case, it's Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, aka The Hero's Journey.Joseph Campbell posted:For the ogre aspect of the father is a reflex of the victim's own ego - derived from the sensational nursery scene that has been left behind, but projected before; and the fixing idolatry of that pedagogical nonthing is itself the fault that keeps one steeped in a sense of sin, sealing the potentially adult spirit from a better balanced, more realistic view of the father, and therewith of the world. Atonement (at-one-ment) consists in no more than the abandonment of that self-generated double monster - the dragon thought to be God (superego) and the dragon thought to be Sin (repressed id). But this requires an abandonment of the attachment to ego itself; and that is what is difficult. One must have a faith that the father is merciful, and then a reliance on that mercy. Therewith, the center of belief is transferred outside of the bedeviling god's tight scaly ring, and the dreadful ogres dissolve. Essentially, in the throne room Luke is facing two patriarchal figures: his own literal father and the Emperor, ruler of the galaxy. Luke is tempted to kill these patriarchs in two ways, Obi Wan and Yoda's pragmatism (superego) and the Emperor's taunting (id). Laying down his arms is a completely irrational action, but he does it anyway because he refuses to be entangled in Sin and because he is no longer bound by the material reality that limited the Jedi before him. He's willing to endure the Emperor's attack because "for the son who has grown really to know the father, the agonies of the ordeal are readily borne; the world is no longer a vale of tears..." His "better balanced, more realistic view" of his father is rewarded, and therefore the galaxy his healed, at least until the studio is bought by Disney. In the book, Campbell uses this framework to describe tests from various mythological gods, such as Zeus, the Apache sun god, and the Biblical God in the Book of Job, where the worshipper submits to tortures and cruelty in order to gain some powerful knowledge. Under the Campbellian reading, then, Anakin is the godlike figure that is recognized and known in this ritual and whose vision for the galaxy is realized. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 00:36
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"Turning to the dark side" isn't some esoteric weird thing that affects Luke's stats and modifiers in ROTJ. Turning to the dark literally is deciding to kill your wretched father instead of finding in your heart to show him mercy and forgive him. The technical aspects of "how would Luke's failure to do what we see on screen" lead to disaster is an absurd question. For one, if Luke killed Vader, murked sheev then strode back out to celebrate with the rest of the rebellion, the movie would be rightfully seen as a terrible ending to the trilogy, in the same way that Rey doing that exact thing is seen as a wet fart on top of the already wet fart of the sequels. That "being an unsatisfying ending" is the disaster that would ensue, not some tactical failure
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Jul 7, 2022 01:07
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Bogus Adventure posted:I didn't interpret it as Luke letting the Emperor kill him. I saw it more as an act of defiance against Palpatine's command for Luke to kill Vader. I don't think Luke realized Palpatine could zap him with the Force. Until that moment, he's just staring at a really old dude who can barely walk. He looks pretty surprised, and spends the rest of the scene calling for his father to help him. That's how I always interpreted it. One thing I've always found really interesting about the entire throne room scene is how relatively unprepared Luke was to face Palpatine. He had maybe gone through Jedi 101 between Obi-Wan and Yoda, but he had failed a number of his tests: the force cave on Dagobah, lifting his X-wing from the swamp, facing Vader and swatting away the objects Vader threw at him with the force, etc. Yet despite being relatively green, Luke not only defeated Vader without killing him but faced down Palpatine and openly defied him. It speaks to how much "natural talent" (for lack of a better term, since midichlorians still seem controversial) he had with the force.
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Jul 7, 2022 01:21
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Bogus Adventure posted:I didn't interpret it as Luke letting the Emperor kill him. I saw it more as an act of defiance against Palpatine's command for Luke to kill Vader. I don't think Luke realized Palpatine could zap him with the Force. Until that moment, he's just staring at a really old dude who can barely walk. He looks pretty surprised, and spends the rest of the scene calling for his father to help him. Same, even as a kid who loved that movie the most. Luke just decides to lay down at all costs because he hates the dark side so much, and just maybe because he thinks doing that will inspire his father.
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Jul 7, 2022 02:03
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BiggestBatman posted:"Turning to the dark side" isn't some esoteric weird thing that affects Luke's stats and modifiers in ROTJ. What if it’s Luke who needs forgiveness for his support of the Republican faction? See, this is the crux of the debate - dramatized in the ST as the conflict between the Vaderists of the First Order and the Lukists of the neofeudal Resistance. Whether you’re a Campbellian New Ager, or just “grrr Vader bad”, or whatever, the Lukist view consistently approaches Vader as a problem to be dealt with. “Yes, the most hated man in the galaxy. ... You believed that he wasn't gone - that he could be turned.” The Lukist view is that we need to ‘bring Anakin back’ and/or reform him so that he embraces the light of liberalism. It’s basis is in Obiwan’s “certain point of view” that Vader is “twisted” and needs to put down, with Luke only adding that maybe he can kill Vader while still preserving the valuable Anakin inside. See the constant assertions that “Anakin’s not gone!” What audiences miss is that Luke decides on all this stuff partway through the movie, and is proven wrong. Vader stands for a truth that is not merely a subjective truth. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 04:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:To be very clear here: *jumps up from my chair Freudily* Vader is also Luke's dad! Tempting a boy to kill his father also seems like... a bad thing.
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Jul 7, 2022 07:27
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Darth Sidious is pretty confident that he's more than a match for any laser swordsman in the galaxy mano a mano, plus he's got a pretty formidable bodyguard. If it turned out that he was unable to persuade this younger, hotter, less hosed up Skywalker of the truth of Sith ideology (more on that later), then his plan B was definitely to torture him for a bit until he died and then get back to what he was up to in A New Hope, which was further consolidating his unlimited power. In The Empire Strikes Back, Luke was growing disillusioned with the Rebellion. Still by no means a fan of the Empire, but he's focusing on his spiritual growth, even defying Yoda and Obi-Wan, who want him to become an orthodox Jedi like they did and shed all attachments except to the Republic. To that end, he's trying to follow in the footsteps of his father, whom he idolizes - only to be confronted with the horror of learning that the endpoint of that path is to become Darth Vader, his enemy and his teacher's killer. Vader, of course, proposes that they team up to overthrow the Emperor, except that contrary to the goals of the rebellion, rather than reinstate the Republic, they will make something new. Luke, quite understandably, has no idea that when Vader says he wants to "bring order to the galaxy" he doesn't mean they just become the second and third rulers of the fascist Empire. The shock of the revelation, and his rejection of it, motivates him to return to the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and when they get the chance to win the rebellion by simultaneously assassinating the Emperor and destroying the superweapon that is the foundation of his regime, he jumps at the chance. He first tries to turn Darth Vader, which fails because while Anakin Skywalker was a soldier of the Republic, he didn't hold with its ideals; restoring it is the one thing he is certain could never create the benevolent dictatorship that he sees as the only hope for justice. After being taken prisoner, Luke's plan is now to make himself a martyr for the Republican cause, and he says as much: "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me." Palpatine, for his part, thinks he'll have all the time in the world to work on Luke because the rebel attack will fail. The first thing he needs to do with the kid is prove that his ideals are bunk and Sith ones are way better. First he tries to convince Luke that the throne room is not a battlefield; he's not there to keep Palpatine from escaping because Palpatine has no intention to escape, and he never will have such an intention because the space battle will end in an Imperial victory. Once it's established that this isn't a battle, but rather a debate, he tries to convince Luke to make the conscious decision to execute a defenseless enemy. Luke is a political idealist, come to fight and die for the idea that power shouldn't be used arbitrarily, that the ability to simply kill enemies at will won't lead to justice. If he can goad Luke into just trying to stab him, a seed will be planted. Which seed exactly doesn't matter much, since Sheev can improvise; it might be the knowledge that he's a hypocrite, betraying his ideals for victory; it might be that he saw how one blow with a lightsaber could accomplish what years and years of star war never could; it might be simply that the bad man told him to do it and he obeyed. Hell, he might have been able to make his point with an entirely different transgression than decapitating an old man. Whatever it is, it would mean that Luke will have taken his first step toward the Dark Side, and by following that path he would inevitably be forced to accept Palpatine's ideology of pure power (either by agreeing with it, like Darth Maul, or by being compelled to by force, like Darth Vader). Now, for a while Luke went back and forth with that idea, but in the end realized that he was about to make a big mistake, when after some sword fighting he found himself with another defenseless enemy he had a chance to execute (though due to various events it was a different enemy this time). Contrary to earlier, now he's no longer even tempted, and in throwing away his weapon he gives up his chance not only to kill Vader but also to kill the Emperor. Indeed, he accepted at last that rather than try to save Anakin from Vader he should be trying to save Vader. It was this act of defiance that motivated Darth Vader to rise up and emancipate himself from Darth Sidious (even at the cost of his own life, for surely as soon as he put that breather on Vader knew that defying Sidious would mean his death): in refusing to execute a Sith Lord, in declaring himself truthfully to be a Jedi, a guardian of peace and justice, and living up to that ideal in a way that none of Anakin's own Jedi mentors ever had, Luke demonstrated the possibility of a path that, unlike the hopeless Republic, might possibly bring about Vader's dream of a just galaxy. That possibility might still fail, which is why it was followed up by a trilogy of movies about more or less that exact situation, but in that moment Luke personified a new hope, that the Empire could be replaced by something better and less doomed than the Republic that gave birth to it. Meanwhile, the guys that weren't the fascists won the star war, creating the political situation in which that hope would have a chance to be realized.
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Jul 7, 2022 07:42
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Palpatine: I'm just a frail old man, why don't you attack me. Luke: Alright. *Immediately gets blocked by Vader, they fight for a bit* Luke: poo poo, I'd have to kill my dad to get to you and I don't want to do that. Not playing your game. *Palpatine starts zapping him with a previously unseen power* Goons: Wow, was he really gonna let Luke kill him?
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Jul 7, 2022 09:12
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What are you gonna do, stab me? - unstabbed Sheev
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Jul 7, 2022 11:04
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YaketySass posted:*Immediately gets blocked by Vader, they fight for a bit* That’s not true, though. Luke chopped Vader hand without killing him and after that he could have attacked Palps. Others posters above gave better reasons why he didint Also I don’t think is true that Vader was forced to the dark side, like Bongo Bill said above. We can say he was tricked with the whole dream of Padme dying thing and Palpatines promises of teaching him ressurect spell, but he still made a choice. Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 12:41
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Grendels Dad posted:*jumps up from my chair Freudily* Vader is also Luke's dad! Tempting a boy to kill his father also seems like... a bad thing. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way...
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Jul 7, 2022 16:17
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galagazombie posted:Palpatine in the throne room is also the only time anyone in the entire trilogy acknowledges Luke as a Jedi. It’s a plot point that Obi and Yoda refuse to call him a Jedi, Yoda outright laughs, Han takes Luke’s proclamation of Jediness as a sign of madness. It’s becomes especially notable given what we learn Palpatine thinks of the Jedi in RotS (They’re no different from the Sith, they’re hypocrites who just seek power like he does etc). You get the impression he’s basically the Joker and believes deep down everyone exists in total depravity and all pretentions of love and higher ideals are cynical lies. And then Luke comes and proves him wrong. When he says “So be it, Jedi.” you now get the impression That Luke is the first real Jedi Palpatine has ever met. That's pretty much canon iirc, absolutely everything with Palpatine basically paints him as a complete sociopath who is a brilliant actor and is just having so much fun putting on the persona of the serene and reasonable leader put into terrible circumstances while being a literal cackling evil wizard by night, dual personas setting up half the galaxy to crash into the other half. Heck, the Mortis arc has the incarnation of the Dark Side itself have more sympathetic qualities- after all, he's also the good intentions, the fear and worry, and desire to avenge that leads people down the Dark Side path. pospysyl posted:For these doctrinal questions, I feel that it's always best to refer to the source material. In this case, it's Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, aka The Hero's Journey. Just me or is this basically iirc the finale of Psychonauts?
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Jul 7, 2022 16:49
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https://twitter.com/pabl0hidalgo/status/1545082969852809216
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Jul 7, 2022 18:29
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Ghost Leviathan posted:That's pretty much canon iirc, absolutely everything with Palpatine basically paints him as a complete sociopath who is a brilliant actor and is just having so much fun putting on the persona of the serene and reasonable leader put into terrible circumstances while being a literal cackling evil wizard by night, dual personas setting up half the galaxy to crash into the other half. THis is show with great effect in the Clone Wars two-parter "The Zillo Beast". As Palpatine, he's his usual "terrible circumstances" self, but he secretly overjoyed at an opportunity to make well-intentioned people do terrible things. He's got some great scenes in this episode. If you only watch one Clone Wars episode, make it this one, make it this one for Sheev !
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Jul 7, 2022 20:01
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FunkyAl posted:Why is this guy so popular? Does everyone just love Hitler Youth Apologists? Or Thor 3, for some reason? First of all, what? And second of all, what?
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Jul 7, 2022 22:46
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Winifred Madgers posted:First of all, what? And second of all, what? Been a pretty swift backlash against this Taika Waititi guy.
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Jul 7, 2022 22:56
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The prequel loving youths have lately turned on him since some remarks he made the other day about how little he knows about them. While that is pretty dumb, personally I can live with it in the dim hope of someone bringing something, anything new to star wars
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Jul 7, 2022 23:11
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A lot of people hated/were repulsed by Jojo Rabbit. I thought it was alright but I'm a rube. Plus Thor 4 is getting bad buzz. I guess my worry about handing Waititi star wars would be him making a quippy, overly-meta pastiche of previous star wars stuff. His stuff is firmly in the comedic realm. Not overly concerned about any of this, though.
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Jul 7, 2022 23:18
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| # ? May 31, 2024 21:28 |
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Hollywood is over and the mcu is finally dead, killed by a 71% RT score. Weep, weep o youth of today!
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Jul 7, 2022 23:24
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