READ OP! War in Ukraine: a distressed blender making too many margaritas at once

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Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Kibayasu posted:

Its much faster and lighter, wheeled instead of tracked. Its also far more accurate (when used correctly) then the typical artillery cannon in Ukraine so instead of blanketing an area with hundreds of shells to hopefully hit something you want to the rockets hit where you want them to +/- some margin of error.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Kind of. M142 is mounted on a truck that goes ~80 km/h on highway, and M270 is mounted on a Bradley frame (tracks), but can still go ~60 km/h. I doubt either of those are being driven at max speed on rural Ukrainian roads, unless the Russian army alone isn’t meeting the desired health hazard levels.

That's a great rundown.
Sounds fast and accurate enough to hit a target and maybe skiddaddle before they get located.
:thanks:

# ? Jul 9, 2022 00:34

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# ? May 28, 2024 23:52

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Kind of. M142 is mounted on a truck that goes ~80 km/h on highway, and M270 is mounted on a Bradley frame (tracks), but can still go ~60 km/h. I doubt either of those are being driven at max speed on rural Ukrainian roads, unless the Russian army alone isn’t meeting the desired health hazard levels.

Judging by self reporting in the GiP Idiots thread, the LMTV can go a good bit faster than 80km/h, even loaded down.

If you really, really need something done, pile a few "whos" into a truck, give them vague directions "where" and tell them "what". They will figure out the "how", leaving you to wonder "why?!"

# ? Jul 9, 2022 00:42

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

The big difference with high Mars vs Russian mlrs is accuracy. As far as I've been told and himars system can hit a pin on the ground with extreme accuracy

# ? Jul 9, 2022 00:57

Moon Slayer: Jun 19, 2007

Oh hi, Mars!

# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:21

MrYenko: Jun 18, 2012; #2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

The biggest advantage of M142s vs M270s is strategic mobility. It weighs a whole lot less than an M270, and is quite a bit narrower, both of which are a pretty big deal for air, sea, and land transport. The half-sized launcher is a lot less of an issue when you�re firing PGMs anyway.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:23

The X-man cometh: Nov 1, 2009

Weren't the HIMARS needed for counter-artillery? Or are there so many Russian artillery pieces that hitting ammo dumps are more effective?

# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:25

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

A big part of their accuracy over the M270 is the newer munitions iirc (and also lots of integrated support). The new vehicle is compatible with the trucks adopted in the 90s as well as being lighter, but the launcher is mostly/entirely the same. Or in other words, if we gave the russians 12 to make it even they still couldn't do more than dumb grad barrages they already do.

Incidentally, briefly after high school I wanted to go for an army career like my dad and my signed MOS was MLRS crew. I decided gently caress that (which is shockingly legal up until you actually report to boot camp.) If I'd done that I'd be halfway through my second enlistment atm. First time I've ever regretted it. I could be training ukrainians instead of posting. Prolly the first good thing the US military has done since 1945.

The X-man cometh posted:

Weren't the HIMARS needed for counter-artillery? Or are there so many Russian artillery pieces that hitting ammo dumps are more effective?

Entenched tube artillery is really hard to blow up, all you can do is make the crew run away/die and kill their trucks. However, entrenched tube artillery is just a cool war diorama without any shells.

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jul 9, 2022

# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:32

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

The X-man cometh posted:

Weren't the HIMARS needed for counter-artillery? Or are there so many Russian artillery pieces that hitting ammo dumps are more effective?

I mean you kind of answered your own question. Would you rather destroy an artillery army one piece at a time or an ammo dump a thousand shells at a time?

Artillery is good for nothing if it has no shells. Especially with the rate of fire that Russia is conducting. The himars systems are driving around popping ammo dumps and if that continues and becomes more and more effective, counteroffensives will be much more likely to create decisive strikes.

Interestingly enough the Soviets perfected this method which is called deep operation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation

Ukraine cannot possibly neutralize every single artillery battery that Russia can bring to bear. But they can neutralize the flow of supply. We've seen that on numerous account during this kerfuffle. Unfortunately the ukrainians were to spread out defending a much larger Frontline than they are now. Which is partially why we didn't see catastrophic counteroffensives occur with large pockets of Russian soldiers trapped.

What must be understood is Russia is conducting this offensive like it's World War i. And unfortunately World War I had a sequel which proved a lot of the concepts in World War I as false. This is bad for Russia with a more technologically diverse equipment arsenal Ukraine will eventually be able to push the tide back. They have a major river behind them right now and that's going to become very decisive in the next few weeks. If they're able to stop the Russian offensive at the river, that maybe it for territorial gains on Russia's behalf.

Now the hope is Ukraine gets longer range artillery because they are able to argue they're not targeting civilians or Russia proper. If they are able to get hundred plus kilometer guided systems they will be able to sabotage rail networks on the Ukraine Russian border as well as inside Ukraine air bases that Russia may be operating out of. With this they can effectively neutralize Russia's ability to project softening attacks prior to offensive.

If anyone has counters to any of this or wants explanation I'd love to talk about it as it is really important to understand the logistical side and tactical side of this war more so than just looking at a map of front lines and moving red or blue highlights.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:39

ZombieLenin: Sep 6, 2009; "Democracy for the insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society." VI Lenin

[/quote]

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Incidentally, briefly after high school I wanted to go for an army career like my dad and my signed MOS was MLRS crew. I decided gently caress that (which is shockingly legal up until you actually report to boot camp.)l

In the United States Armed Forces it�s actually �legal� with no consequences up until the point you graduate from boot camp.

I had a good friend who enlisted in the Navy, went off to the Great Lakes for basic, made it 2/3rds of the way through and decided, �I don�t want to loving do this.�

So at muster in the morning he told his drill instructor he quit, the drill instructor did what drill instructors do, and my friend just said, �gently caress you, make me� then sat down.

He says it took about an hour and a half of threatening him and yelling at him, before they just gave up and arranged for transportation for him home.

Before that graduation ceremony, your enlistment is not official, so literally my friend went on with his life with no indication he had ever joined the service.

He later went on to join the Air Force, made it through basic, and stayed in 9 years.

ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jul 9, 2022

# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:13

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

Adding to the above: one huge strength of Western artillery systems vs. Soviet-era arms is sensor fusion. It doesn't even have to be direct, as long as the concepts are understood. Stand-ins can collate and meld data. As long as they can communicate what they've found, the job of killing and surviving gets easier for people on the front lines.

Coupled with radar to track projectiles mid-air, counter battery fire can be initiated before the enemy's shells even land. All in one system of systems.

This can be handy with cruder forms of ranging/recon as well. Sound and flash ranging, drone footage, recon teams radioing their observations back, if all that data can be made sense of and sent as far forward as possible, chances of success increase exponentially. Can't hit what you can see, can't avoid what you don't know is coming.

That goes for deep strike targets, too. Look at recent examples:

A Ukrainian sees Russian troops in his house on security cameras via a remote feed. Calls it in to the military, relays coordinates, they get a drone in position, confirm, direct fires.

Ukrainians on the street see Russian positions, post on Twitter, military picks that up, confirms, directs fire appropriately.

Commercial drones in UF service rove around, find command centers, alert command, command sends some HE their way.

Communication saves the day. Training saves the day. Even if we, in the West, didn't give the UAF much equipment pre-war, they were taught how a modern military communicates and commands. There is a wealth of knowledge from the "GWOT" to choose from, and what that was built upon as well.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:20

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

ZombieLenin posted:

Before that graduation ceremony, your enlistment is not official, so literally my friend went on with his life with no indication he had ever joined the service.

No, it�s official. But inside of 6 months time in service, it�s very easy to get a rapid, uncharacterized separation for anything from failing a course to just refusing to train and saying you want to go home. An uncharacterized chapter doesn�t really raise flags when joining later. If inside 6 months of service and you get in trouble for something criminal or a serious medical issue, they are supposed to do that paperwork differently.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:30

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

madeintaipei posted:

Adding to the above: one huge strength of Western artillery systems vs. Soviet-era arms is sensor fusion.

Is it truly the case that contemporary Russian systems don't do any of this?

# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:43

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Not sure how many people know this but the US made a huge push for smart bombs because of the Vietnam war. They ran out of b-52 crews because the Chinese/vietnamese AA troops were insanely good at destroying them.

Now Russia suffers the consequences of this 50 year long push for smarter and smarter weaponry.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0310bombs/

Why is this important to the Ukraine war? Well, the longer this goes the more US weaponry will go to Ukraine and the difference in accuracy will change aswell. We are now seeing a way higher counter cruise missile ratio. (This was posted in the thread already). If Ukraine can effectively use 12 HIMARS st once they can essentially neutral out the Russian supply flow and create a dire situation for Russia.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jul 9, 2022

# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:53

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian. :unsmith:

# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:57

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

Discendo Vox posted:

Is it truly the case that contemporary Russian systems don't do any of this?

Sure, if they have enough systems, and if it works, and there are enough people who know how to accomplish much with it.

Compared to what Ukraine had before, it's a major step forward.

Not to denigrate the UAF pre-2014, and what they've developed around then and since then, but they only had what fell in their laps after the Soviet Union collapsed.

Even in peace time, Ukraine sought to leverage what was left with what they could incorporate from the West into older systems. Export orders to non-Russian aligned powers operating Soviet arms were meant to springboard UAF equipment acquisition. This... never worked out. Formed relationships, formed more concrete ones after 2014, but they were never able to get far.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:05

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

afaik the most contemporary russian systems absolutely do integrate, but stuff not made or modernized in the last 10-15 years is not integrated in a particularly significant way. They've also been heavily sanctioned for the last 8 years so a lot less of their stuff is modernized/updated than was meant to be by this point.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:10

Dandywalken: Feb 11, 2014; Can't post for 3 hours!

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

Not sure how many people know this but the US made a huge push for smart bombs because of the Vietnam war. They ran out of b-52 crews because the Chinese/vietnamese AA troops were insanely good at destroying them.

The US lost 15 B-52s total in the entirety of the Vietnam war. 744 were built, with the last in 1962.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:19

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

ZombieLenin posted:

In the United States Armed Forces it�s actually �legal� with no consequences up until the point you graduate from boot camp.

I had a good friend who enlisted in the Navy, went off to the Great Lakes for basic, made it 2/3rds of the way through and decided, �I don�t want to loving do this.�

So at muster in the morning he told his drill instructor he quit, the drill instructor did what drill instructors do, and my friend just said, �gently caress you, make me� then sat down.

He says it took about an hour and a half of threatening him and yelling at him, before they just gave up and arranged for transportation for him home.

Before that graduation ceremony, your enlistment is not official, so literally my friend went on with his life with no indication he had ever joined the service.

He later went on to join the Air Force, made it through basic, and stayed in 9 years.

Ehhhh, sorta. Until you actually ship out to basic you're nobody as far as the DoD is concerned. Potential recruit, maybe, but nobody outside of the recruiter/MEPS has seen you and nobody cares. Once you ship, you're in the system and collecting a paycheck. You have been given payment, room/board/food etc. so you're theirs. However, prior to finishing basic a lot of people are given the boot for "failure to adapt". This can take place within the first 180 days, at the commander's discretion. So there's potential grey area. 99.99% of the time though it's quicker and easier for the commander to just sign off on a failure to adapt and you're let go, no harm, no foul, uncharacterized discharge.

If you're that guy and piss off the commander they can gently caress with you on some details and make your life pretty miserable. After 180 days have passed from shipping to basic this type of discharge is no longer an option.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:27

Lord Koth: Jan 8, 2012

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

Not sure how many people know this but the US made a huge push for smart bombs because of the Vietnam war. They ran out of b-52 crews because the Chinese/vietnamese AA troops were insanely good at destroying them.

Now Russia suffers the consequences of this 50 year long push for smarter and smarter weaponry.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0310bombs/

Why is this important to the Ukraine war? Well, the longer this goes the more US weaponry will go to Ukraine and the difference in accuracy will change aswell. We are now seeing a way higher counter cruise missile ratio. (This was posted in the thread already). If Ukraine can effectively use 12 HIMARS st once they can essentially neutral out the Russian supply flow and create a dire situation for Russia.

Uh, I wouldn't call the loss of 17 B-52 airframes to enemy action (+2 landed write-offs) as "running out of B-52 crews." Even if you count every B-52 lost in Vietnam, bringing the total to 31, that's still a small fraction of the ~750 produced - all already in service long before any of the air campaigns started (just a reminder that the very last B-52 produced rolled off the production line in 1962). Even Linebacker II, where the vast, VAST majority of combat losses happened (15 of those 17), had a loss rate of less than 2% compared to sorties conducted.

Like, the article you linked even mentioned that precision guided munitions were already in heavy testing and then limited usage during even early stages of the air war. Lack of results in Vietnam may have accelerated the push, but the USAF had already decided they really wanted PGMs before it even started. Analysis about how incredibly effective modern PGMs are is right on the money though.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:28

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

DOD transcript highlights from 8 July.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3088129/senior-defense-official-holds-a-background-briefing/

Short version:
-New delivery of HIMARS will bring total from 8 to 12.
-HIMARS effective in targeting C2 and disrupting Russian plans, no specific details
-Denies HIMARS has been hit by Russia
-Denies HIMARS has been used to target any targets inside Russia proepr
-1,000 "more precise" 155mm rounds, absolutely refuses to confirm or deny if Excalibur. Edit: "more precise" not "additional precise"
-Will not comment on Russian claims of striking Harpoon systems
-Sounds like no plan to issue out ATACMS to Ukraine
-NASAMS fielding is months away
-There is zero plan for any pilot training for Ukrainian pilots on Western aircraft

SDO posted:

The United States first initiated a training program for Ukraine in 2015 -- yes, 2015 -- on helping Ukraine with its capacity to man, train, equip, deploy and sustain combat arms units. It is this background that's important for understanding how early in the war, Ukraine was able to face a larger, more capable Russian force, able to stay nimble, empower subordinates, achieve commendable successes, already be trained on certain capabilities that the United States as well as other countries had provided -- notably Javelins but not only Javelins -- and therefore, Russia was walking into a battle back in February with a far more capable military than it expected and that it -- it had frankly faced back in 2014.

And then early in the war, the surge of assistance from the United States and allies and partners ended up proving vital to supplement the training and capability Ukraine had built over those seven years in thwarting Russia's multi-access offensive, which was aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government of Ukraine and that is evidenced in the fact that Kyiv was one of the major priority axes of attack.

And what we saw in Ukraine's successful fighting off of the initial attack was that the years of training, equipping and advising, coupled with the surge of key capabilities such as 11,000 anti-armor and almost 1,500 anti-air weapons just in those first weeks, along with critical intelligence sharing, enabled the Ukrainian Armed Forces to successfully defend Kyiv and force the Russians to pull back and reassess their battlefield objectives and their approach.

And part of this -- a main element of this that we're kind of forgetting, I think, as the months have gone on, is that Russia's large scale invasion also was thwarted by Ukraine's very capable use of air defense capabilities, both those that Ukraine owned at the start of the battle -- legacy Soviet capabilities -- and the surge of assistance that the United States and allies immediately turned to in order to provide Ukraine with additional Soviet era legacy air defense systems, spare parts, repairs, more missiles.

And as a result, Ukraine denied Russia from gaining air superiority. And Russia -- and Ukraine continues, to this day, to sustain that capability and to deny Russia air superiority, which has forced Russia to limit its operations to the battle we're seeing today.

Now, coming to the battle today, as Russia's focus shifted to the offensive in eastern Ukraine, our assistance shifted, as well, because it's a different kind of battle, it's a different kind of set of requirements.

At first, Ukraine relied upon, again, its Soviet legacy howitzers, artillery and armored capabilities, but the United States immediately moved to surge over 100 NATO standard 155 millimeter howitzers and over 260,000 155 millimeter artillery rounds from DoD stocks to support what was clear to our military leaders was going to be primarily an artillery battle, and that's what you're seeing play out.

Then, in the next couple of weeks, in the next stage that you will see in this package today, which is the focus on higher capability, precision, further range weapons, and in the case of the United States, that's the provision of the HIMARS system, and the multiple launch rocket systems and the ammunition to enable Ukraine not just to conduct defenses with artillery, which are effective and important but not precision strike capabilities with insufficient range to be able to range Russian C2 nodes, logistics nodes.

And what we've seen now, as the United States surged HIMARS systems and the missiles for those systems, that Ukraine has now been successfully striking Russian locations in Ukraine, deeper behind the front lines, and disrupting Russia's ability to conduct that artillery operation.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: So the President -- the White House will be announcing the President has decided to provide another round of presidential drawdown authority the following capabilities: four high-mobility artillery rocket systems, HIMARS, and additional ammunition for those HIMARS. This is the capability I just referred to as being especially important and effective in assisting Ukraine and coping with the Russian artillery battle in the Donbas.

Three tactical vehicles to recover equipment, to support Ukrainian efforts to repair, resupply as this battle continues. 1,000 rounds of 155 millimeter artillery ammunition. This is a new type of 155 millimeter artillery ammunition. It has greater precision. It offers Ukraine precise capability for specific targets. It will save ammunition. It will be more effective due to the precision, so it's a further evolution in our support for Ukraine in this battle in the Donbass.

In addition, the package will include demolition munitions, counter battery systems, and importantly spare parts and other equipment because it's not just the new weapons systems but it's the ability of Ukraine to repair, maintain, and sustain the effectiveness of the systems that we and allies and partners have been providing over the last few months. So that is what you'll be hearing announced from the White House later this afternoon.

...

Q: Hey, thanks for -- thanks for this. Two quick questions. You mentioned the 155 munitions and they're a bit more advanced. Can you give a bit more details on what that is? And just more broadly, do you see Russia now having the momentum in the war or do you still sort of see the battle in terms of momentum?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Yes, I can't -- other than describing the -- this new set of 155 munitions, I can't get into details for, you know, operational reasons -- but simply to confirm that these are precision capable systems compatible with the 155 howitzers, so that's what I can share on that.

...

On momentum, I mean, the Russians are making very, very incremental, limited, hard-fought, highly-costly progress in certain, select, small spaces in the Donbas. They're way behind on their timelines. They're far behind on their objectives. The Ukrainians are in localized places launching effective offensives. And now increasingly in the last week what we've seen is the ability of the Ukrainians to use these HIMAR systems to significantly disrupt the ability of the Russians to move forward even where they make that grinding, slow offensive.

...

Q: OK. And if I could, can you say -- you just mentioned there are places where the Ukrainians are -- I think the words you used are significantly disrupting Russia. Where is that happening?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: I can't give you specific locations -- as other of my colleagues have said, we don't want to help the Russians do their battle damage assessment or anything like that, but it is -- these are locations behind the frontlines of where the Russian forces are concentrated, where you see every day the battle is going on. It is the lines behind C2 logistics nodes, so in the Donbas definitely and in the battle space just further back behind the front lines.

...

Q: And very quickly, is there any consideration being given to any kind of oversight or monitoring mechanism for the vast amount of weapons and value of the weapons that you're transferring to ensure they don't fall into the wrong hands? Is there anything you're either doing to monitor that or considering monitoring that?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Yes. We absolutely track the -- from the time we send the capabilities to Ukraine, deliver them to Ukraine, they move them to the battlefield. Our military leaders and experts and professionals are in communication with the Ukrainians to understand how they're employing those capabilities, what their usage rate is, what their -- I mean, it's a really important element of deciding what goes into our next assistance package is to understand how they're employing those capabilities, what their usage rate is, what their -- I mean it's a really important element of deciding what goes into our next assistance package is to understand how they're employing them, at what rate they're employing them and battlefield conditions they are employing them.

So we are tracking that very carefully and we are very mindful of our duties and obligations to maintain awareness of the capabilities we're providing to Ukraine.

[My personal note: That was NOT an answer to the question asked]

...

And most importantly, I would say, for the Russians to know that the Ukrainians are going to be able to continue the fight. Because if the Russians think they can outlast the Ukrainians they need to rethink that because this effort -- we are already pivoting towards thinking about what the Ukrainians will need in the months and years ahead.

...

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: So I can't get into -- again, this is operational security details on the timing of when the HIMARS will get there. But I will tell you, we have -- we have anticipated that this new set of HIMARS would be part of a Presidential drawdown authority and already work to ensure that they can get their -- the battlefront rapidly. But I won't give you a timeline.

...

Q: Will you -- will more Ukrainians be trained on HIMARS or do you have sufficient number they just need the systems?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: We'll be continuing to train them because, again, we see this as a sustained battle and the crews will need to take rest. I mean there's all kinds of reasons that you would want to continue to train sets of -- units of Ukrainians to be able to operate the systems.

...

On Russian damage to other -- Russian damage to other U.S.-supplied capabilities, same thing -- we're not going to do the -- Russia's battle damage assessment for them. I can clarify and deny that they have not damaged HIMARS. I'm not going to get into, you know, sort of any other, you know, speculation or evidence about -- that would help the Russians figure out what's going on on the battlefield, other than (CROSS-TALK)

...

Q: Thanks. I appreciate that. I just got to say -- we have gotten, on these same backgrounders, specific information about numbers of Ukrainians being trained, training that is ongoing, for other systems in the past. Candidly, the same thing with, you know, it -- you're willing to say that they haven't hit any HIMARS but won't talk about other systems.

It truly feels like you guys are cherry picking information to provide us here and saying that other things are operational security concerns, and I don't -- I really, candidly just don't understand the justification of it. Is it possible to take both of those questions and see if there's any more visibility that can be provided? I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: I can take the question on the number of trainees on the HIMARS and get back to you. My guidance right now is to not provide that because of operational security concerns. So, you know, please understand.

On cherry picking, I was simply responding to a specific question of how many systems there are and do the Ukrainians have those systems. So I don't think that's cherry picking, I think that's being responsive.

...

Q: Yes, hi. I was wondering -- can you be more specific about the 155 projectiles? We're -- we're talking about Excalibur rounds here, right?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: I can't get into the specifics here.

...

And Russian claims about using HIMARS to strike beyond -- outside of Ukrainian territory, those claims are false. Ukraine is using those capabilities to fight the battle that its forces are facing and they are using them effectively in that battle.

...

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Sure. Eight have been delivered to date. With the package that is being announced today of four, it will be 12, but eight have been delivered to date.

...

Q: But they haven't asked for ATACMS?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: They have asked for capabilities to help them prosecute the -- the current battle in the Donbas, and that is what we are providing with the HIMARS and the GMLRS.

Q: Could you say whether or not it's been considered or is on the table?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: I'll just repeat -- the focus is on helping Ukraine defend its territory and fight the Russians on Ukrainian territory, and that is, I think, welcomed by and -- and worked actively with the Ukrainian military and political leadership.

...

Q: Yes, I am. Thank you for calling on me. Two questions. One, I was wondering if you can give us on the NASAMS? All right, they -- is the contract signed? When would you expect those to reach the frontline? And secondly, there's some legislation in Congress. Ukraine keeps asking. Is DoD doing any advanced planning for pilot training for Ukrainians to fly F-16s or advanced planning or discussion regarding the transfer of F-16s or facilitating that transfer? Thank you.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: So on the NASAMS question, it's moving forward, you know, now that it's been decided by the president. I can't give you details of where it is in the contracting process, but you know, we don't see any challenges. It -- as your question suggests and you're right that use of USAI is a different authority. And so, it has a different timeline, but you know, that was expected. But we don't foresee any specific challenges and I can't give you a specific timeline at this point. But no issues at all with that. It's been -- you know, it's well underway.

On training of pilots, there are no current plans to train Ukraine on any, you know, air platform other than those that they are using everyday effectively in the battle right now, and those pilots already trained on those platforms.

Q: And just a follow up on that. Is there even like a number of months away that you think that that would be in the battlefield? Thank you.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: I can't give you a number, but it's certainly -- and again, it's a good question. It's a reasonable question. I would say it's several months.

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jul 9, 2022

# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:36

Karma Comedian: Feb 2, 2012

mlmp08 posted:

No, it’s official. But inside of 6 months time in service, it’s very easy to get a rapid, uncharacterized separation for anything from failing a course to just refusing to train and saying you want to go home. An uncharacterized chapter doesn’t really raise flags when joining later. If inside 6 months of service and you get in trouble for something criminal or a serious medical issue, they are supposed to do that paperwork differently.

Yup. Failure To Adapt

# ? Jul 9, 2022 04:17

Sekenr: Dec 12, 2013

https://twitter.com/kommersant/status/1545516712489099270?t=D2oRxcUBuiCRRLgjf6jMUA&s=19

Jeysus gently caress Germany. German embassador complains that Canadian government is "under pressure by Ukraine" to not return a Siemens turbine to North Stream which was under repairs.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 04:48

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

It is common knowledge that the "babushkas selling pierogis at a farmer's market in Moosomin" lobby has an iron grasp on Trudeau

# ? Jul 9, 2022 05:07

Crow Buddy: Oct 30, 2019; Guillotines?!? We don't need no stinking guillotines!

Relax Germany, it would be political suicide for him to let those turbines out of the country.

They ain't getting them back so stop asking.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 06:21

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

Sekenr posted:

https://twitter.com/kommersant/status/1545516712489099270?t=D2oRxcUBuiCRRLgjf6jMUA&s=19

Jeysus gently caress Germany. German embassador complains that Canadian government is "under pressure by Ukraine" to not return a Siemens turbine to North Stream which was under repairs.

Look if Germany wants Kitchener, Ontario renamed to Berlin that badly we'll do it, but we are not giving Russia anything of any form in this year 2022.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 07:32

Shes Not Impressed: Apr 25, 2004

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1545655036432220162?s=20&t=6wf08VwzcY4ZKw6ZD9DoQQ

# ? Jul 9, 2022 07:36

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

MT-LB

Armor
14 mm max

LOL

# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:04

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Crow Buddy posted:

Relax Germany, it would be political suicide for him to let those turbines out of the country.

They ain't getting them back so stop asking.

Reuters is reporting �a decision to return the turbine had already been taken� as of 20 hours ago. It sounds like they might be getting it back after all.

quote:

BERLIN, July 8 (Reuters) - Germany on Friday confirmed that the government had received a positive signal from Canada regarding the delivery of a turbine needed for the maintenance of the Nord Stream 1 gas pipeline to Germany, but could not say that the turbine had been delivered.

Russia's Gazprom (GAZP.MM) cut capacity along the Nord Stream 1 pipeline to just 40% of usual levels last month, citing the delayed return of equipment being serviced by Germany's Siemens Energy (ENR1n.DE), (SIEGn.DE) in Canada.

A decision to return the turbine had already been taken, a source familiar with the issue told Reuters on Thursday.

The turbine would be sent to Germany first which will then deliver it to Gazprom so Canada does not breach any sanctions, a government source told Reuters.

Siemens Energy declined to comment on the news.

The Kremlin on Friday said it would increase gas supplies to Europe if the turbine was returned.

Ukraine opposes Canada's handing over the turbine to Gazprom and Kyiv believes such a move would flout sanctions on Russia, a Ukrainian energy ministry source said on Thursday.

e to add:

Sekenr posted:

https://twitter.com/kommersant/status/1545516712489099270?t=D2oRxcUBuiCRRLgjf6jMUA&s=19

Jeysus gently caress Germany. German embassador complains that Canadian government is "under pressure by Ukraine" to not return a Siemens turbine to North Stream which was under repairs.

This article is based entirely on a Globe and Mail article that will probably be easier for folks here to read, as it�s in English and not Russian. I just realized it happens to cite the Reuters article above. It is reported that it�s closer to being delivered than not:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-poised-to-return-russian-turbine-to-germany-critical-to-gas/

quote:

Canada and Germany are close to reaching a deal that would permit the return of a Russian gas turbine whose absence Moscow is blaming for its decision to reduce gas supplies to Europe, according to a senior Canadian official.

The turbine, built by Germany�s Siemens Energy Canada, is being repaired at the company�s Montreal facilities. But its return to Russia has been complicated by sanctions Canada introduced after Moscow�s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Those sanctions forbid the export of certain goods and technologies to Russia, including the turbine.

The European Union also imposed new sanctions on Russia after the start of the invasion, and the bloc has spent the ensuing months reconciling its opposition to the war with its need for Russian fuel. The resulting uncertainty has plunged the continent into an energy crisis, with Germany bracing for gas rationing during the winter months.

The official said Canada and Germany are in discussions with Ukraine, which has opposed the idea of skirting sanctions to return the turbine, and that a decision on releasing the device is days away. The official, whom The Globe and Mail is not naming because they were not authorized to discuss the negotiations publicly, added that there is still more work to be done, but that all sides are working for a �positive resolution.�

The Ukrainian embassy in Ottawa said it hoped Canada would stay committed to full sanctions against Russia. �We are aware of the dialogue between Canada and Germany regarding the Siemens turbine and do hope that the Government of Canada will ensure full integrity of the current sanctions regime,� said Oksana Kyzyma, First Secretary at the Ukrainian embassy.

Gazprom, the Russian state-owned natural gas company, has blamed the missing turbine for its decision to cut capacity along the Nord Stream 1 gas pipeline, which runs under the Baltic Sea to Germany, by as much as 60 per cent. The Kremlin said on Friday that it would increase gas supplies to Europe if the turbine is returned.

The official said Russia has an extra turbine it could put into operation, and is using the sanctioned turbine as an excuse to apply economic pressure to Europe. Returning the turbine would eliminate that excuse, the official said.

Reuters reported Friday, citing a German government source, that a decision to return the turbine had already been made. The turbine will be sent to Germany, which will then deliver it to Gazprom so that Canada does not breach any sanctions, a government source told Reuters.

At a news conference on Friday, Steffen Hebestreit, chief spokesperson for German Chancellor Olaf Scholtz, would say only: �I can confirm that there are positive signals from Canada. I cannot yet confirm that a delivery is on its way.�

The Canadian official said a final decision has not been made, but acknowledged that the matter is urgent. The official added that Canada understands Germany and Europe want the turbine returned to help the continent replenish its supplies of Russian natural gas before the winter months.

The official said Germany is a close friend of Canada, and noted that Europe will be dependent on Russian natural gas until it can find other dependable sources.

Mr. Scholz raised the turbine issue directly with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at a G7 meeting in Germany in late June. The chancellor is planning a trade visit to Ottawa on Aug. 22 and 23 to push for the construction of liquefied natural gas export facilities on Canada�s East Coast, which would enable Europe to replace some of the Russian supply with Canadian fuel. A German official said Berlin is hoping the turbine dispute can be resolved before the visit. The Globe is not identifying the official because they were not authorized to discuss the issue publicly.

On Thursday, Germany�s Vice-Chancellor and Economy Minister, Robert Habeck, appealed to Ottawa to release the turbine in order to allow Europe to replenish its gas supplies. He said the return of the turbine to Germany would remove the excuse that Russian President Vladimir Putin has used to slash gas flows to Europe.

Keean Nembhard, press secretary to Canada�s Natural Resources Minister, Jonathan Wilkinson, would neither confirm nor deny that a deal to return the turbine is imminent.

Sabine Sparwasser, Germany�s ambassador to Ottawa, told The Globe on Thursday that she understands the Trudeau government is under pressure from Ukraine and the Ukrainian-Canadian community not to return the turbine.

�Europe and Germany are very supportive of sanctions � but we also said we should not take sanctions that hurt us more than they hurt Russia,� she said.

Oksana Kyzyma, first secretary at the Ukrainian embassy in Ottawa, said the embassy hopes Canada�s government �will ensure full integrity of the current sanctions regime.�

Ukrainian Canadian Congress national president Alexandra Chyczij wrote to Prime Minister Trudeau on Wednesday to stress the importance of not returning the turbine and ensuring that all sanctions on Moscow remain in place.

�Russia seeks to set a precedent for the waiver of sanctions which will then be used to extract more waivers of sanctions and to undermine Western unity. We urge the Government of Canada to see through this obvious ploy and to use its good offices to broker a solution which does not involve the waiver of sanctions,� Mr. Chyczij wrote.

Mr. Chyczij added that Ukraine has offered what he called an �attractive alternative, namely a discount on the use of Ukraine�s transit pipelines to transit gas to Germany and the EU.�

e: More recent update that did not show up in a Google News search but did on Twitter:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-ukraine-russia-turbine-1.6515344 posted:

Canada faces a tough choice this weekend between angering Germany and offending Ukraine as it ponders the fate of a large turbine that has been undergoing repairs in the workshops of Siemens Energy Canada.

The turbine normally drives gas through the Nord Stream One pipeline that runs from Russia to Germany. Last month, while undergoing scheduled maintenance at a Siemens Energy facility in Montreal, the turbine was caught up in sanctions the Trudeau government brought against its owner, Russian oil and gas giant Gazprom.

Russia responded by cutting the flow of gas through the pipeline by 60 per cent. It has said since that unless the turbine is returned by Monday, July 11, it will not restore normal flow.

That poses a serious problem for the German government, which is struggling to fill the nation's storage tanks to get through the coming winter. Some other European countries, such as Italy, face similar problems.

On Friday, Germany began rationing hot water, dimming street lights and closing swimming pools as it faces the prospect of energy shortages that could leave its people shivering and its businesses shuttered this winter.

Germany pleads 'with heavy heart'

Robert Habeck, Germany's finance minister and deputy chancellor, has acknowledged that his country made a "grievous mistake" when it allowed itself to become so dependent on Russian energy. But Habeck said Berlin now has no choice but to ask Canada to override its sanctions and return the turbine.

"It is with a heavy heart that we had to ask for this," he told Bloomberg News.

"If it's a legal question for Canada, I want to make clear that I'm not asking them to deliver it to Russia, but to bring it to Germany."

Habeck acknowledged that the turbine may simply be a pretext Russian President Vladimir Putin is using to blackmail Germany with energy shortages. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has openly said the same. But Habeck said Germany still wants the turbine to put that theory to the test.

"If we want to take this road of excuses away from [Putin], I'm calling on the Canadian government not to wait too long and make the decision before the maintenance period starts" on Monday, he said. "Otherwise, I'm quite sure that Putin will find a political problem in the pipeline."

Siemens Energy says sanctions still stand

There were reports from Berlin on Friday that Canada had decided already to accede to Germany's request.

CBC News asked a spokesperson for Siemens Energy Canada about those reports. "That's the first I've heard of it," said Ann Adair.

"No change," she added. "We continue to stick to the sanctions."

Adair also said that merely delivering the turbine to Germany rather than to Gazprom would not be enough to get around the sanctions. She said Siemens would expect to see the matter dealt with through a formal sanctions exemption, justified on humanitarian grounds by Germany's energy needs.

Federal Natural Resources Minister Jonathan Wilkinson said Friday that "it's not simple and we have not made a decision, but we certainly are talking with our friends, Ukraine and Germany."

Kyiv to Canada: Don't give in

Canada is getting pressure from both Berlin and Kyiv. Ukraine's embassy in Canada issued a statement on Friday, saying "we are aware of the dialogue between Canada and Germany regarding the Siemens turbine and do hope that the Government of Canada will ensure full integrity of the current sanctions regime."

The government of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has been severely critical of Germany, accusing it of being too dependent on Russian energy and too lukewarm in its support for Ukraine. It has complained bitterly that, since Russia invaded its territory on Feb. 24, Europe has sent much more money to Russia in energy payments than it has given to Ukraine to spend on its defence.

Ukraine is keen to cut Russia's energy exports to Europe in order to reduce what it sees as the Kremlin's leverage over governments like Germany's. It would view the return of the turbine and a restoration of normal flow to Nord Stream One as actions strengthening the Kremlin's grip.

Diaspora pressures

The Ukrainian Canadian Congress wrote to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and members of his cabinet Wednesday to say that the fate of the turbine is "a test of the resolve of the Government of Canada to maintain sanctions and to continue to isolate Russia."

The letter points out that the German government itself has acknowledged that demands for turbine's return may simply be a manoeuvre to justify a decision the Kremlin already has taken.

"The Russian Federation is once again using energy as a weapon to sow discord among Ukraine's allies," wrote UCC president Alexandra Chyczij. "It is also clear that Russia seeks to set a precedent for the waiver of sanctions which will then be used to extract more waivers of sanctions and to undermine Western unity.

"Any waiver of Canadian sanctions would be viewed as a capitulation to Russian blackmail and energy terrorism. [It] would only serve to embolden the Russian terrorist state, with far-reaching and negative consequences not only for Ukraine or the European Union, but for Canadian security as well."
Wilkinson seemed well aware of the pressure from both sides when he spoke to CBC News on Friday.

"We have to be sensitive, certainly, to the plight of the Ukrainians and the terrible suffering that is going on in Ukraine," he said.

"We also have to be sensitive to the very legitimate economic concerns of the Germans, who are worried, to be honest with you, about not having fuel to heat their homes in the winter and not having fuel to be able to run the industrial parts of their economy, which would be a disaster for all of Europe if that were to happen.

"That pipeline supplies not only Germany but a number of other European countries with gas. And the government in Russia is using the turbine as an excuse to reduce flows of gas to Germany and to others."

Wilkinson said Canada continues "to absolutely support the sanctions that we and others have put into place to try to ensure that Russia pays a price and ultimately will withdraw."

"But the point of the sanctions was not to penalize our ally, Germany. It was not to try to collapse the economy of Germany and Italy and Slovakia and Austria. And so we are working to try to find a solution that will work for everybody."

mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jul 9, 2022

# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:09

norp: Jan 20, 2004; TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

let's invade New Zealand, they have oil

quote:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-poised-to-return-russian-turbine-to-germany-critical-to-gas/

e: More recent update that did not show up in a Google Bews search but did on Twitter:

Surely delivering the sanctioned goods to a third party with the knowledge that they plan to forward it to a sanctioned party would its self be a violation of the sanctions.

norp fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Jul 9, 2022

# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:28

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

mlmp08 posted:

DOD transcript highlights from 8 July.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3088129/senior-defense-official-holds-a-background-briefing/

Short version:
-New delivery of HIMARS will bring total from 8 to 12.
-HIMARS effective in targeting C2 and disrupting Russian plans, no specific details
-Denies HIMARS has been hit by Russia
-Denies HIMARS has been used to target any targets inside Russia proepr
-1,000 "more precise" 155mm rounds, absolutely refuses to confirm or deny if Excalibur. Edit: "more precise" not "additional precise"
-Will not comment on Russian claims of striking Harpoon systems
-Sounds like no plan to issue out ATACMS to Ukraine
-NASAMS fielding is months away
-There is zero plan for any pilot training for Ukrainian pilots on Western aircraft

Couple thoughts

First, information coming out of Ukraine recently is curiously locked down currently and part of what several of the questions are getting at is that there are a few things clearly and conspicuously in the public sphere of discussion, eg the entire fight against the Russian push in the Donbass and the himars. It seems like there's been a broad clamp down on information flowing out because it's pretty clear that Russia was getting useable stuff from pretty much everything that was floating around in the public sphere. many of the osint folks seem to be tracking certain actions a lot less publicly and a much greater portion of the information is coming directly from state-affiliated sources.

I don't think there's actually a ton to read into that beyond just that people making decisions realized that too much useable information was filtering out and it's perennially good practice to clamp down on anything operationally relevant.

Second, I'm once again reminded that Ukraine had ~5000 combat ready troops in 2014 and just how insane it is that in less than 8 years they put together a force that fought the Russian army to a stand still. Even with generous foreign assistance the magnitude of that improvement is hard to fathom and they did most of that while using primarily soviet leftovers and light, infantry-portable weaponry, they fought the Russians to a pause before the heavy equipment tap really even opened. They destroyed and damaged and captured a significant amount of Russia's entire modernized tank stocks. They sank the Moskva. I can see why Russian mil bloggers are apoplectic. That Russia just sat by while Ukraine armed themselves to that extent is one of the costliest mistakes Russia has made in the last 20 years.

Third, re the keeping track of where weapons end up: in the initial round of assistance to Ukraine the US helped them set up an inventory control system that basically mirrors what the US does. They in all likelihood do know where pretty much everything ends up.

Shes Not Impressed posted:

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1545655036432220162?s=20&t=6wf08VwzcY4ZKw6ZD9DoQQ

Russia has quietly squeezed about as much mobilization as the country as possible without just openly declaring full mobilization. At pretty much every stage where there has been a question of whether they will accept a setback or will they mobilize more resources? they've gone with mobilizing more resources. Basically Russia is a lot farther down the path of escalation than I think is widely recognized or appreciated. A lot of the seemingly idiosyncratic images and messages coming out of the donbass (eg the pictures of troops with mosins and a lot of the prominent howling about how hosed separatist militaries are) were not so much accurate statements of affairs but were intended to pressure political leaders to commit more resources and it sure seems to have worked. That's not to say that they weren't also accurate, just that the messaging was clearly intended to force greater commitment to the conflict.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jul 9, 2022

# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:31

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Second, I'm once again reminded that Ukraine had ~5000 combat ready troops in 2014 and just how insane it is that in less than 8 years they put together a force that fought the Russian army to a stand still. Even with generous foreign assistance the magnitude of that improvement is hard to fathom and they did most of that while using primarily soviet leftovers and light, infantry-portable weaponry, they fought the Russians to a pause before the heavy equipment tap really even opened. They destroyed and damaged and captured a significant amount of Russia's entire modernized tank stocks. They sank the Moskva. I can see why Russian mil bloggers are apoplectic. That Russia just sat by while Ukraine armed themselves to that extent is one of the costliest mistakes Russia has made in the last 20 years.

hmmm, i wonder what the chance of success would have been if they had just gone for the full decapitation strike and reinstated a friendly government right off the bat in 2014. maybe with that initial shock of hostilities and the lack of 8 years of undeclared war to harden the opinion of the population they could have pulled it off

# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:40

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

norp posted:

Surely delivering the sanctioned goods to a third party with the knowledge that they plan to forward it to a sanctioned party would its self be a violation of the sanctions.

It sounds like they might be seeking �a formal sanctions exemption, justified on humanitarian grounds by Germany's energy needs.� Not sure most observers would be sympathetic to a humanitarian appeal for Germany�s energy needs though.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:41

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

hmmm, i wonder what the chance of success would have been if they had just gone for the full decapitation strike and reinstated a friendly government right off the bat in 2014. maybe with that initial shock of hostilities and the lack of 8 years of undeclared war to harden the opinion of the population they could have pulled it off

I don't think there's any question whatsoever that they would've accomplished it in 2014. It would've been extremely messy and probably would've turned into a god awful civil war for a while, but yeah they absolutely could've destroyed Ukrainian institutions to the extent that there was either someone russia-friendly in charge or there were no ukrainian institutions left to build up.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:43

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Scholz's Zeitenwende predictiably turns into smoke and mirrors that boils down to a shrinking Defense budget which is only propped up by the 100 billion "Sonderverm�gen" until after the next federal Election, achieving the 2% NATO goal not every year but over a "multiyear average".

https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1545505564683374594

But please Canada send us the Gas Turbine for Putin, otherwise our house of cards that is used to shield the voters from the worst natural gas price spikes will falter.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 09:59

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Canada should drop the loving turbine from a plane over the god drat Bundestag

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jul 9, 2022 11:31

norp: Jan 20, 2004; TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

let's invade New Zealand, they have oil

Aren't things like that turbine normally shipped around the world using the AN-225?

# ? Jul 9, 2022 11:33

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Russia has quietly squeezed about as much mobilization as the country as possible without just openly declaring full mobilization. At pretty much every stage where there has been a question of whether they will accept a setback or will they mobilize more resources? they've gone with mobilizing more resources. Basically Russia is a lot farther down the path of escalation than I think is widely recognized or appreciated.

It seems to fly under the radar even though it needs to be accounted for, because otherwise you could underestimate just how expensively russia is committing and how deep they're going in just to sustain this war on their end, just to get fought to a standstill regardless

# ? Jul 9, 2022 11:51

Redgrendel2001: Sep 1, 2006; you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.

steinrokkan posted:

Canada should drop the loving turbine from a plane over the god drat Bundestag

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jul 9, 2022 12:10

Charlotte Hornets: Dec 30, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Some whining again.

https://kenigtiger.livejournal.com/2165728.html

quote:

Amazing.

I haven�t looked on the Internet yet, where exactly, but, apparently, in Stakhanov, last night, the Armed Forces of Ukraine covered another warehouse of artillery ammunition of the RF Armed Forces. What is the account there? Sixth or seventh after the Krasniy Luch? As it began to burst at two in the morning without a trifle, it burst until everything exploded around four in the morning.

With a glow and other delights.

Well, what can I say? Let us briefly summarize the logic of the top leadership of the RF Armed Forces.

February March.

Having an overwhelming superiority over the enemy in modern armored vehicles, drive farther into the depths of enemy positions more of this same armored vehicles and special equipment without the combat-ready and motivated motorized infantry accompanying it. Drive unprotected rear columns back and forth and lose them. As a result, to lose the overwhelming majority of modern T-72 and T-90 models, lined and abandoned, to lose most of the BMP-3 fleet. As a consequence of all this - to lose the ability to conduct major operations at great depths. Draw out the war.

April June.

Killing battalions of �private traders (e.g PMCs like Wagner etc)�, �barsiks� (BARS volunteers/reserves), �ahmatok (Chechens)�, and, of course, Donetsk and Lugansk residents, slowly and painfully realize that it is necessary to establish interaction between infantry and artillery, reinvent all the bikes of the First and Second World Wars on this topic. Start slowly and painfully, with insane losses, win the war at least this way.

June July.

Despite the absence of any military secrecy around the supply of modern foreign long-range artillery and MLRS to Ukraine, continue to concentrate artillery ammunition on large, unsuitable for their storage, industrial facilities in the zone of confident reach of enemy missiles and artillery. Lose one by one all these warehouses. As a result - to lose the opportunity to attack normally, at least in the way that they attacked before. To create out of the blue a wild "shell hunger" in conditions when the enemy had just received and mastered new foreign artillery systems and MLRS.

Outcome.

I know that our army is led by a bunch of untrained morons. Stupidly vile, miserable, vindictive, petty, thieving, herdish, gathering in big �army mafias�, bringing �tithe� of their income to the very top. Just stupid stupid thieves. Like the civilian leadership of the country, the difference is small.

And even the morons themselves begin to guess about it. That they are morons. And, of course, waiting for the fact that they stole something from themselves. They stole their own future.

But you can no longer convince anyone that there is no direct telegraph from Tsarskoe Selo to Kaiser Wilhelm, through which Rasputin reports to the Kaiser all the arrangements and sends fresh operational maps by fax.

Well, you can't be sure. There are not so many fools who will believe in this, and there will be no time and opportunity to realize this with the intellect through practical experience.

An amazing, certainly lively historical anecdote. I myself would not have lived in all this - I would not have believed it if I had been told.
A clear illustration of how insignificant the contribution of the Bolsheviks themselves to the success of the Revolution was compared to the contribution of the tsarist government.

Nicholas II and his ministers with the generals as the basis, the creator of first February, and then October.

Better than any textbook.

Go outside and listen all night. It still crashes occasionally.

"Do shells wish evil on a ship, woodworms on an oak tree, tapeworms on a bull? They simply take care of themselves and their offspring, but one fine day the ship sinks, the oak falls, the bull dies, and we begin to look for a terrible conspiracy."
(c) Faith Kamsha, Heart of the Beast. Volume 3. Blue look of death. Midnight.

# ? Jul 9, 2022 12:58

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 28, 2024 23:52

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Tangentially related to Ukraine, but we are going to start the global consequences of the WiU. The Sri Lankan president has fled his palace

https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1545691255665217536

https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1545704506104713216

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-62077109

quote:

Lately, the cost of food, of cooking gas, of clothes, transport, and even what electricity the state will allow you to have, has sky-rocketed so egregiously as the rupee's value plummeted, that even largesse from the moneyed has been in short supply.

In working-class neighbourhoods, families have begun to band together around wood fire stoves, to prepare the simplest of meals - rice, and coconut sambol.

Even dhal, a staple of the diet all over South Asia, has become a luxury. Meat? At three times the price it used to be? Forget it.

Fresh fish was once abundant and affordable. Now, boats can't go out to sea, because there is no diesel. The fishermen that can go out sell their catch at vastly inflated rates to hotels and restaurants out of reach to most.

A majority of Sri Lankan children have now been forced to subsist on a diet with almost no protein. This is a crisis that has hit on every level from the macroeconomic to the molecular.

Are children's brains, their organs, their muscles, their bones, getting what is required? Milk powder, most of which is imported, has barely been seen on market shelves for months.

The UN is now warning of malnutrition and a humanitarian crisis. For many here, the crisis has been roiling for months.

We will be seeing a lot more destabilization, famines and refugees as this global crises brings already fragile nations to the brink of total economic collapse. All thanks to ~~Vladimir Putin's imperialist dreams~~ Ukraine not ending the war :saddumb:

# ? Jul 9, 2022 12:59

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > READ OP! War in Ukraine: a distressed blender making too many margaritas at once

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