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I mean, if season 8 had had broadly the same quality of storytelling as seasons 5-7 then most fans would have been content and the show would be well remembered. It's just that S8 was undeniably borderline unwatchable garbage, and the fact that every character's story additionally ended in the most unsatisfying way didn't help. Even if they broadly kept the same plot points but put some modicum of effort into justifying character behaviour it would already be much improved. Like, why couldn't they just have the second dragon die at Kings Landing? Then Dany would have had an obvious reason to go crazy. Also maybe don't have her literally dress up as Hitler while giving a speech to her Dothraki who all died twice over in both of the previous episodes.
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Aug 15, 2022 17:46
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which is why I think D&D just got lazy and wanted to just get it over with S5-S7 showed that most fans of the show just wanted spectacle, S8 was when the writing got -so- bad even normies started to notice, and even then people didn't really uniformly turn against the show until literally the last 15 minutes of the show If D&D just put like a few extra weeks to write a script S8 prob would have just being some 10/10 best show ever according to normies. Make Dany kill the night's king by drecarysing him with Dragon flame. Just throw out the GRRM ending with Bran being king and just make Jon+Dany live happily ever after or some poo poo like that. They have like 10 targ babies and Dany is the greatest queen ever. Just fulfill every fantasy cliché THE END. it's not like the avg show watcher gaf about core themes of ASOIAF being bad things happening to throne-seekers or the difficulties of governing the realm as a medieval monarch by the later seasons anyway. They just wanted YAS SLAYA QUEEN and "bad man dies on screen". Typo fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 18:05
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Max posted:The one big stink I see a bunch of historians make about GoT is how often defensive armies are placed in front of the walls they are supposed to protect, where they all inevitably die because whoops they aren’t protected by a wall. Placing armies in front of walls was a thing, but it wasn't idiotic like with The Golden Company or in say The Battle of Winterfell, where they threw like 90% of their forces in front of their one main trench, along with catapults who got to fire one rock each before being overrun. Real armies that fought outside walls would do things like dig large trenches/ditches around the main walls and even put up pre-walls that could impede siege-breaking tactics. Depending on how organized the defending army was, they could also fight along these defenses, forcing the enemy to take casualties and use up resources before they could reach the main walls. pidan posted:I mean, if season 8 had had broadly the same quality of storytelling as seasons 5-7 then most fans would have been content and the show would be well remembered. It's just that S8 was undeniably borderline unwatchable garbage, and the fact that every character's story additionally ended in the most unsatisfying way didn't help. Even if they broadly kept the same plot points but put some modicum of effort into justifying character behaviour it would already be much improved. Like, why couldn't they just have the second dragon die at Kings Landing? Then Dany would have had an obvious reason to go crazy. Also maybe don't have her literally dress up as Hitler while giving a speech to her Dothraki who all died twice over in both of the previous episodes. I remember people immediately pointing out that she gave that speech in High Valyrian to Dothraki, Unsullied, and Northern troops, so at most like a third of her army actually understood what she was saying while Jon didn't understand at all and Tyrion caught bits and pieces.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:09
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Pennsylvanian posted:
hahahahahahahahha I forgot about that
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Aug 15, 2022 18:12
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The story behind Battle of the Bastards was that it was supposed to be wildly different, but D&D massively misunderstood how many days and how much resources it would take to film the original idea. Miguel Sapochnik, the director for the upcoming HotD kept telling them that they were on crack if they wanted what was on page to be shot in the timeframe they laid out, and apparently they kept saying "You'll get it done, man. We believe in you!" (paraphrasing). Sapochnik said he had to cut out ridiculous amounts of planned content and rescript the battle itself while on location. They also had to constantly reset the scenery. Basically, it was a miracle it ever got filmed. As far as the action goes, BotB is kind of dope, but it falls apart if you even think about it for a second in terms of logic or plotting.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:29
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I was thinking about what time period westero's frozen medieval society is obvsly the baseline is mid 15th century England, but in terms of the central government you have a cabinet (small council) with wide spread powers to implement sweeping policies across the realm (i.e tariffs at ports) and those didn't come into existence until...maybe the 1600s? So they are actually ahead in that respect But in terms of technology they are behind, the obvs missing technology are gunpowder weapons but other glaring missing items are things like mechanical clocks. By the late 1200s clocks were installed in very prominent churches as a way to tell when to start praying, and it's completely missing in asoiaf. Which implies they are pretty behind in terms of engineering.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:38
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It’s surprising they have any people at all considering harsh winters can last like a decade.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:50
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Yeah, that always kinda bugged me. I know that even ancient real-life societies had fairly large stores of food that could last for a year or more and that there are crops and wild foods that can survive in colder seasons, but winters that last for years seem like it would basically wipe out the entire peasantry every time they happened. That, or at least cause the North to collapse and result in masses of refugees that flood into Southern lands or something. I guess the winters aren't maybe constantly deathly frigid? I don't think he ever really described them beyond what we got in Dance. Like I said, I could suspend my disbelief over the historicity of the governments, but the economy of Westeros seems like it should have resulted in at least the entire Northern population being completely wiped out a hundred times over by now.
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Aug 15, 2022 19:02
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Yeah, this is something GRRM doesn't seem to understand at all, if you're a feudal lord you want to have a lot of peasants. You're not going to go around murdering them, and if someone else murders your peasants you come up with some scheme to get more from somewhere else. In Europe traditional tricks include religious tolerance, just handing out free land, and literally going around recruiting young people in other lands like the pied piper. GRRM seems to be under the impression that medieval society in general was struggling with overpopulation, and his death rate of people from all ages and causes is also off the charts. To be fair, that's why everyone in the novel is like 12 years old, because the older generation have all died of murder / childbirth / the flu.
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Aug 15, 2022 19:49
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To defend the rape author (*tugs at collar*), it seems obvious to me that the Lannister campaign is based directly on the English chevauchees of the Hundred Years War, where knights and longbowmen rode around France doing medieval 'Come and See' poo poo for decades. Exaggerated I guess but, honestly, not too much
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Aug 15, 2022 19:56
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DaysBefore posted:To defend the rape author (*tugs at collar*), it seems obvious to me that the Lannister campaign is based directly on the English chevauchees of the Hundred Years War, where knights and longbowmen rode around France doing medieval 'Come and See' poo poo for decades. Exaggerated I guess but, honestly, not too much yeah that's was just normal medieval warfare most medieval warfare was not pitched battles involved thousands of men on each side, it was more more like you had a pitched battle once n a long while then years and years of small skirmishes before and afterwards where both sides would go to the other side's land and steal poo poo/kill their peasants
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Aug 15, 2022 20:58
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I was suddenly just reminded of another dumb show thing. When Jon receives the Pink Letter in the show, the 'Come and See' line is repeated in it, but Littlefinger also uses the phrase in the same episode. This got people asking if Littlefinger maybe wrote the letter and was aware of Sansa's abuse at the hands of Ramsey. It actually felt like there was maybe some depth in the story again. But then one of the showrunners came out and said: "No. It's Ramsey. We're 100% serious," and quickly quashed those hopes.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:11
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Remember A Game of Bones? Such good times
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Aug 17, 2022 00:05
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Pennsylvanian posted:Yeah, that always kinda bugged me. I know that even ancient real-life societies had fairly large stores of food that could last for a year or more and that there are crops and wild foods that can survive in colder seasons, but winters that last for years seem like it would basically wipe out the entire peasantry every time they happened. That, or at least cause the North to collapse and result in masses of refugees that flood into Southern lands or something. I guess the winters aren't maybe constantly deathly frigid? I don't think he ever really described them beyond what we got in Dance. I think I can actually sort of buy it… Like for one thing, my understanding was that winters did not generally always last “for years”, but that a normal Westerosi winter lasts like, between 1 and 2 years, closer to a year? Of my memory serves me (it’s been a while) Tyrion mentions in the first book that the winter when he was born was the longest in recent memory and lasted for 3 years, I think? My suspension of disbelief can buy that as being survivable, with most winters lasting around 12-18 months and anything longer being like a once-in-a-generation outlier. Unless the white walkers are coming, of course.
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Aug 17, 2022 17:07
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you basically have like 5 years with no winter than a winter of like 1-2 years it's kinda like extended seasons and more unpredictable not sure how storing perishable foods or whatever works with that
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Aug 17, 2022 17:20
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If you can’t predict the weather to some extent you ain’t gonna be storing poo poo. If you had 5 years of mild weather but didn’t have a cycle you could count on you would never know how much to store. It’s just kind of stupid fantasy thing in his books (like a 700ft wall that is not holding back anything remotely that big) that doesn’t really matter but since GURM is a lovely goon I’d rather just drag him for it cause it’s funnier.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:09
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It would be cool to see how a supply chain would work for a continent with unpredictable weather patterns. Massive trade connections with Essos and the Summer Isles to supply bulk items that can't be stored during long winters. Or how preservation techniques would adapt to account for variable winter lengths.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:19
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RC Cola posted:Remember A Game of Bones? Such good times Written in part by a real, confirmed sexual predator, as opposed to merely a long suspected sexual predator like GRRM 
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Aug 17, 2022 18:22
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I'm normally the one who can go "fantasy and magic world, I get it. I can forgive a lot." The problem comes in with how the more that he tries to worldbuild, the more that those little warts start showing. It doesn't ruin the story for me, but the nitpicker in me can't ignore it. Which is funny because I was originally attracted to GoT because the part of me that always nitpicks media really didn't have a problem with the first seasons of the show. One thing I liked is that characters sounded thoughtful and the plot wasn't caused by the same glaring contrivances that propel a lot of plots. The one real plot contrivance I can't really abide is Littlefinger, though. He should have been dead by the end of the second book, but for some reason Tyrion didn't tell Tywin that the Master of Coin tried to frame their family and Littlefinger just got to keep on doing his thing. Tyrion even remarks to himself in Clash that he needs to do something about Littlefinger and then suddenly forgets, presumably because you can find the points in Clash where George decided that the series would no longer be a trilogy as planned. There are just a lot of contrivances just to keep him alive and causing trouble in the plot.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:25
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Legit, someone should cross-reference A Game of Bones' author list with the Lepers Colony and see how many of them are permabanned and for what. I have a feeling the answer will be "a lot" and "sex poo poo", respectively.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:25
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kaworu posted:I think I can actually sort of buy it… Like for one thing, my understanding was that winters did not generally always last “for years”, but that a normal Westerosi winter lasts like, between 1 and 2 years, closer to a year? Of my memory serves me (it’s been a while) Tyrion mentions in the first book that the winter when he was born was the longest in recent memory and lasted for 3 years, I think? The bigger issue is that the winters in the north are described in a way that makes Buffalo's yearly snowfall look like nothing. IIRC, oof the characters mentions how they've seen snow almost as high as Winterfall's walls and even several feet of snow, let alone what sounded like dozens of feet, is a shitload of weight that is going to crush every single peasant's house unless they are constantly removing snow from it and praying everything doesn't collapse when they eventually go to sleep. If it was just cold arctic conditions then sure they could adapt and survive but it'd be hell at best and infant/child/elderly mortality would be astronomical there. Mole town would basically turn into a mass grave during winter because heavy snowfall is going to smother every opening that circulates air underground. RC Cola posted:Remember A Game of Bones? Such good times It really wasn't, and that was before the author issues came to light (more than the questionable writing showed). Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 18:46
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nine-gear crow posted:Legit, someone should cross-reference A Game of Bones' author list with the Lepers Colony and see how many of them are permabanned and for what. I have a feeling the answer will be "a lot" and "sex poo poo", respectively. ummmmm ever hear of writing what you know???
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Aug 17, 2022 20:08
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The nights watch is stupid. Why isn't every mayor in grrumworld sending their hobos to the wall? Why aren't more lords sending younger sons that won't inherit anything? What use could they possible have for an insane man that has to be kept in chains lest he bites your face off?
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Aug 17, 2022 22:41
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'Listen.When the White Walkers are coming out of the storm, the Wildlings are coming over the wall, and Charlies coming through the Wire. Then you'll be glad you've got an insane face biter to unchai....Oh Seven no! Not my face.'
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Aug 18, 2022 08:32
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genericnick posted:What about the part where you shoot your own knights in the back when you have supposedly the advantage there? That seems realistic to me.
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Aug 18, 2022 13:03
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Typo posted:I was thinking about what time period westero's frozen medieval society is Really? I thought the imposition of taxes from a central authority was baked into medieval society early on, and just took a little time to catch up to the exactness and preciseness of Roman taxation (and its ability to conduct the census)
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Aug 18, 2022 13:08
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Haven't checked in here in several years. Has the fat gently caress finished the books yet?
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Aug 19, 2022 13:28
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el_brio posted:Haven't checked in here in several years. Has the fat gently caress finished the books yet? From July 8: Pennsylvanian posted:
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Aug 19, 2022 13:44
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el_brio posted:Haven't checked in here in several years. Has the fat gently caress finished the books yet? He finished the train tracks around his castle, does that help
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Aug 19, 2022 13:48
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Zero progress confirmed. Thanks. Back to eating my neeps and yanking my fat pink mast I guess. Anyone know where I can pick up a lightly soiled captain's hat?
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Aug 19, 2022 13:58
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Review embargo has dropped for HoTD and the consensus is “it’s ok...but not special.” So fans across the internet are moving the goal posts at a truly frantic pace to argue that having a mid 60s metacritic rating is actually better than it being higher because if it was higher that just means it’s dumber to appeal to a wider audience outside us, the fans, who can appreciate the artistic depths. For example, always a good sign: 
Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 14:52
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Hmm wonder why ASoaF content creators would want people to like the show. Hmmmmm quite a conundrum.
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Aug 19, 2022 15:10
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It being much better than GOT would be a pretty low bar depending on what version of GOT we're talking here. Will it be better than late seasons GOT? It'd have to be incredibly lovely to not be. Will it be better than early GOT? I kinda doubt that
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Aug 19, 2022 15:45
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Review embargo has dropped for HoTD and the consensus is “it’s ok...but not special.” So fans across the internet are moving the goal posts at a truly frantic pace to argue that having a mid 60s metacritic rating is actually better than it being higher because if it was higher that just means it’s dumber to appeal to a wider audience outside us, the fans, who can appreciate the artistic depths.
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Aug 19, 2022 16:12
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Ahh good old denial stage
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Aug 19, 2022 18:04
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I still don't get why GRRM doesn't just release the story serially at this point. Give the piggies their slop one chapter at a time, and pay for the service. He could have gotten money for the first ~10 chapters or whatever he's released so far. Well, I guess there are probably contract reasons why he can't do that. But, he's already released like, a significant chunk of that book for free now.
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Aug 19, 2022 23:49
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Mike N Eich posted:I still don't get why GRRM doesn't just release the story serially at this point. Give the piggies their slop one chapter at a time, and pay for the service. He could have gotten money for the first ~10 chapters or whatever he's released so far. It’s because he’s trying juggle 15 different and diverging subplots (only of which like 5 are really important) and cannot keep them working with each other due to emphatically refusing to write with any kind of outline and always wanting to tweak poo poo to a degree that would freak out George Lucas.
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Aug 20, 2022 00:06
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nine-gear crow posted:Written in part by a real, confirmed sexual predator, as opposed to merely a long suspected sexual predator like GRRM aatrek?
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Aug 20, 2022 07:36
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Cross-posting from the TV IV: The Dragon House Show thread: In anticipation of the premier tomorrow, I dug through the Social Security Baby Names data set to see if GoT had any noticeable impact on baby names. I suck at data viz, and after way too much time trying to figure out charts, I present this. GoT premiered in 2011 and we can see a noticeable increase in babies being named after characters. Arya dominates, with Kit and Daenerys following. Jamie actually continued to decrease, maybe because he was a villain for part of the series.  If anyone else wants to explorer the dataset, it can be found here. *I forgot Khaleesi: 
Hughmoris fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 16:45
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How about Jaime instead of Jamie?
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Aug 20, 2022 17:05
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