Warhammer: After 18 years, finally an end

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Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

AndyElusive posted:

Defended by the greatest living wall ever built (in a lab), defended by the greatest defenders ever built (in a lab).

I mean look at how many Spartans it took to block the pass of Thermopylae.

300, along with 6,700 hoplites from other Greek cities. They lasted three days.

Also the Palace was assaulted by the greatest siegemaster ever. With overwhelming numerical advantages.

# ? Aug 15, 2022 20:05

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 10:35

Broken Record Talk: Jul 28, 2009; A three-hundred thousand degree baptism by nuclear fire;
we had it coming.

Plucky Brit posted:

Also the Palace was assaulted by the greatest siegemaster ever. With overwhelming numerical advantages.

Who took his toys and went home when no one appreciated him as much as he thought they should. :qq:

# ? Aug 15, 2022 20:35

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Sephyr posted:

A lot of the side-fluff from the early series was really good. The Imperius Secundus deal was an inspired idea, one I'd actually like to see revisited in the 42nd millenium if the writers have the guts.

I haven't read the book, but apparently the cliffhanger at the end of the latest "41k" novel is that someone finds a history book of Imperium Secundus, which will presumably turn into a major scandal / blackmail material against Bobby.

# ? Aug 15, 2022 21:03

Brendan Rodgers: Jun 11, 2014

The Emperor gave Chaos the failsons on purpose, at Molech.

# ? Aug 15, 2022 21:04

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

AndyElusive posted:

Defended by the greatest living wall ever built (in a lab), defended by the greatest defenders ever built (in a lab).

I mean look at how many Spartans it took to block the pass of Thermopylae.

Not to be the "Well, akshually" guy, but there were thousands of other greeks in that battle, and it delayed the Persian army by a whopping three days.

The only victory of the Thermopylae was propaganda.

Edit: Oh, someone had pointed it out first. Silly me for not reading all the way down.

But back on topic, sadly the whole IMPERIUM OF MANKIND is way too firmly established in the lore at this point. Another human faction, either based on the Imperium Secundus or maybe even a less-insane renegade group than chaos, could be really fun for the setting. I don't know, have Magnus and the Khan make amends and create their own magic-friendly fun domain in the galactic South...

...though at the end of the day, I still think bringing primarchs back was a bad deal for the lore as a whole.

Sephyr fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Aug 15, 2022

# ? Aug 15, 2022 21:09

AnEdgelord: Dec 12, 2016

They are introducing a new human faction though and its squats/leagues of votann

# ? Aug 15, 2022 22:11

Drakyn: Dec 26, 2012

Plucky Brit posted:

300, along with 6,700 hoplites from other Greek cities. They lasted three days.

Plus the slaves! Spartan citizens without slaves were like fleas without dogs.

# ? Aug 15, 2022 22:50

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Plucky Brit posted:

I'm okay with that, as otherwise it doesn't make much sense how three Legions could have held out against nine.

3:1 is the generally recognised required ratio for an attack to not bounce.

Also gently caress Thermopylae, you want some real 40K level :black101:

poo poo you want the first and second sieges of Rhodes.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 02:18

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

a lovely king posted:

Yeah the Siege has been weird in that they got rid of basically every heretic Legion. Alphas ducked out, Word Bearers ducked out (except a token force), Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children quit the field, Night Lords, token force, Thousand Sons, gently caress all of them there. Seems like its basically just World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard left.

I see that it's a way of getting across that the tenacious defence plus the infighting led to the traitors running out of time and Horus doing his last ditch gambit, but in effect it makes the whole thing feel a bit anemic character wise.

I guess some of it might be paying off in the next two books, or maybe they're laying the groundwork for Scouring novels (not unlikely).

TBF wasn't that all in the old lore too? Alphas were doing their own thing, Emperor's Children left go go raiding immediately, Iron Warriors leave because they realized they're losers, etc

# ? Aug 16, 2022 03:11

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

NihilCredo posted:

I haven't read the book, but apparently the cliffhanger at the end of the latest "41k" novel is that someone finds a history book of Imperium Secundus, which will presumably turn into a major scandal / blackmail material against Bobby.

Godblight, the third Dark Imperium book takes place further into the timeline than the Dawn of Fire books are right now and the ending hints at the spoiler warning, yes.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 03:13

Chemtrailologist: Jul 8, 2007

Seems like they're setting the stage for an inter-Imperial conflict. I was watching a Chapter Master Valrek video and he think thinks the 10th edition will come out late next year and has inside info that The Lion and Lorgar are coming back.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 03:22

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

Arquinsiel posted:

3:1 is the generally recognised required ratio for an attack to not bounce.

Also gently caress Thermopylae, you want some real 40K level poo poo you want the first and second sieges of Rhodes.

Destroyer of Cities is an excellent book that covers the first one (the very first one.)

quote:

It was the most terrifying kind of war Satyrus had ever experienced, and he had stood his ground against a charge of elephants. But here, great rocks fell from the sky without warning and without mercy. A single stone might kill an entire family – might wipe out a bloodline two hundred years old, or a huddle of terrified slaves, or a family cat or dog – the stones were merciless and like some dark embodiment of Tyche, and veterans began to flinch every time the telltale hissing of the passage of one of the big stones was heard.
A marine – a good man – screamed and threw himself face down on the roof.
Apollodorus was there – not a terrifying disciplinarian, but a hero, who took the man by the shoulder and raised him, speaking into this ear until, red-faced, the man returned to his engine.
‘Imagine ten days of this,’ Neiron said, at Satyrus’ side.
‘Imagine a hundred days of this,’ Satyrus said.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 03:37

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Improbable Lobster posted:

TBF wasn't that all in the old lore too? Alphas were doing their own thing, Emperor's Children left go go raiding immediately, Iron Warriors leave because they realized they're losers, etc

Alphas being alphas, yes. But from what I remember, nearly everyone else was at the siege for the duration, if only so they could be broken and scattered when it ends.

Having most of the Word Bearers (and freaking Lorgar) absent was a bit of a curveball, and not sure if it was a good one. Iron Warriors and ECs leaving, Night Lords and Thousand Sons having only a token presence and World Eaters basically just being useless frothing lugs that anyone loyalist can trip and kill three of sure makes it feel a lot less....momentous.

It'd help if Horus and his legion were not such boring non-entities in the series, but that's mostly due to bad luck in landing authors for their books.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 21:18

Serpentis: May 31, 2011; Well, if I really HAVE to shoot you in the bollocks to shut you up, then I guess I'll need to, post-haste, for everyone else's sake.

Sephyr posted:

Alphas being alphas, yes. But from what I remember, nearly everyone else was at the siege for the duration, if only so they could be broken and scattered when it ends.

Having most of the Word Bearers (and freaking Lorgar) absent was a bit of a curveball, and not sure if it was a good one. Iron Warriors and ECs leaving, Night Lords and Thousand Sons having only a token presence and World Eaters basically just being useless frothing lugs that anyone loyalist can trip and kill three of sure makes it feel a lot less....momentous.

It'd help if Horus and his legion were not such boring non-entities in the series, but that's mostly due to bad luck in landing authors for their books.

From what I remember of the old pre-HH lore (so this all comes with a huge amount of caveat), no the Iron Warriors did leave of their own volition. I'm fairly sure it's because the Emperor's Children had completely lost all discipline, run riot and were busy just massacring the populace rather than actually, y'know, doing the sieging. Perturabo saw this, realized the battle was turning against the heretics, and (in one of his moments) felt he couldn't possibly turn it back to a win with the EC not following orders and / or doing what he wanted them to do. So he bugged out and took the IW with him.

Fulgrim eventually left because he got bored with the slaughter and took most of the EC with him later but before the flagship gambit; I don't remember what the deal with the Night Lords and Thousand Sons was pre-HH in old Siege of Terra fluff.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 22:02

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Chemtrailologist posted:

Seems like they're setting the stage for an inter-Imperial conflict. I was watching a Chapter Master Valrek video and he think thinks the 10th edition will come out late next year and has inside info that The Lion and Lorgar are coming back.

To be clear - he claims to know the stuff in the spoiler for sure from "inside info", he just isn't sure when it will be published, and "next year with 10th ed." is his best guess? How reliable has this guy been, typically?

Also, since I don't play tabletop - it feels like 9th edition was basically yesterday. How much stuff gets instantly obsoleted when a new edition lands? If you have a niche army like, I don't know, Eldar Corsairs or some obscure Guard regiment, are you unable to play until they get around to printing an updated codex for your faction?

# ? Aug 17, 2022 05:46

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

They've kind of been designing so you can awkwardly slog along with the old books for a while, but I believe that changed with the dramatic shakeup to vehicles an edition or two back. It's swung wildly over the years from "all your books are now useless" to "maybe Orks will get a new codex this edition?" and back again, with Space Marines often getting two codices in a single edition.

wiegieman posted:

Destroyer of Cities is an excellent book that covers the first one (the very first one.)

I was thinking more Ottomans vs the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta but that book sounds pretty badass too so I've added it to my list to check out.

# ? Aug 17, 2022 15:18

Genghis Cohen: Jun 29, 2013

Arquinsiel posted:

3:1 is the generally recognised required ratio for an attack to not bounce.

Also gently caress Thermopylae, you want some real 40K level poo poo you want the first and second sieges of Rhodes.

Not to be pedantic, but (in modern military terms, admittedly not planned for titans or orbital bombardment) the 3:1 ratio is to push an offensive into territory where the enemy has had time to plan a defence and/or prepare positions. Fortresses aren't really a concept due to increasingly lethal fires, up to and including tactical nukes, but if we take urban areas as an analogy, those require a much higher ratio.

I second the Christian Cameron recommendation though. A very prolific author, competent prose, all his plots and characters, regardless of era, have a certain similarity (martial artist military officers with strong ethics) but his books are highly enjoyable if you're interested in military history.

# ? Aug 17, 2022 20:24

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

The EC being absent for most of the siege is definitely old lore, along with the NL being fractured, leaderless war bands by that point (Curze was never present). The Iron Warriors leaving is the biggest change. The Word Bearers are present in large numbers but Lorgar himself isn�t - Zardu Layak was leading them.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 00:08

Sextro: Aug 23, 2014

Giving the Ferrus book a re-read and, am I just imagining it or is �Iron Hands are schmucks� basically written between all the lines?

# ? Aug 18, 2022 00:28

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

Sextro posted:

Giving the Ferrus book a re-read and, am I just imagining it or is “Iron Hands are schmucks” basically written between all the lines?

Depends on which Ferrus book. The IH were too gay for the EC though and that backfired on em

Improbable Lobster fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Aug 18, 2022

# ? Aug 18, 2022 01:07

MariusLecter: Sep 5, 2009; NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

Sextro posted:

Giving the Ferrus book a re-read and, am I just imagining it or is �Iron Hands are schmucks� basically written between all the lines?

A legion of misanthropes, schmucks?

# ? Aug 18, 2022 01:43

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

I love my sad, mad cyborg sons

# ? Aug 18, 2022 01:54

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Genghis Cohen posted:

Not to be pedantic, but (in modern military terms, admittedly not planned for titans or orbital bombardment) the 3:1 ratio is to push an offensive into territory where the enemy has had time to plan a defence and/or prepare positions. Fortresses aren't really a concept due to increasingly lethal fires, up to and including tactical nukes, but if we take urban areas as an analogy, those require a much higher ratio.

I second the Christian Cameron recommendation though. A very prolific author, competent prose, all his plots and characters, regardless of era, have a certain similarity (martial artist military officers with strong ethics) but his books are highly enjoyable if you're interested in military history.

More pedantry for the pedantry gods! "Fortification" takes on really weird meanings in modern combat, especially when nukes are artificially off the table or fighting in urban areas like you point out. 3:1 is the minimum for an attack to succeed at all, a siege is going to be a hell of a lot messier.

Of course we're also kind of assuming that "Legion" is a fungible unit of force for this hypothetical, which they're canonically not for various reasons. Plus when you get into the terrain and logistics imbalance between the attackers and defenders that's all kinds of force multiplication maths that sounds like it'd give me a headache.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 02:01

Sextro: Aug 23, 2014

Improbable Lobster posted:

Depends on which Ferrus book. The IH were too gay for the EC though and that backfired on em

Ferrus Manus: Gorgon of Medusa.
It has been more enjoyable the second read oddly enough.

Improbable Lobster posted:

I love my sad, mad cyborg sons

After reading the 40k stuff about them I was interested enough to revisit their primarch book. I just think they�ve not had a lot of luck.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 02:07

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

Sextro posted:

Ferrus Manus: Gorgon of Medusa.
It has been more enjoyable the second read oddly enough.

After reading the 40k stuff about them I was interested enough to revisit their primarch book. I just think they’ve not had a lot of luck.

I also liked Gorgon of Medusa. Give Guymer's other IH books a reqd if you haven't yet, as well as Chris Wraight's Wrath of Iron, which established a lot of the modern character of the chapter. John Green's Iron Hands is a fun read but not exactly at the quality of more modern BL publishing.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 02:10

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

The EC being absent for most of the siege is definitely old lore, along with the NL being fractured, leaderless war bands by that point (Curze was never present). The Iron Warriors leaving is the biggest change. The Word Bearers are present in large numbers but Lorgar himself isn�t - Zardu Layak was leading them.

I thought Layak yeets himself openly in The First Wall because Abaddon has to be in the plot until the actual setting kicks in. And the Trisagion, with its massive guns and troops, is not there. Ditto for the Blessed Lady .

But I may be mistaken. The books kinda blend together fir me in that part.

I read Severed and it was an oddly sweet/funny 40K story. Not great, but also with no pretentious of being anything other than what it was. Any other good Necron books (I have only read that one and The Infinite and the Divine).

# ? Aug 18, 2022 11:11

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

Sephyr posted:

I read Severed and it was an oddly sweet/funny 40K story. Not great, but also with no pretentious of being anything other than what it was. Any other good Necron books (I have only read that one and The Infinite and the Divine).

Twice Dead King: Ruin, and the sequel Twice Dead King: Reign.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 12:09

Sharkopath: May 27, 2009

Really loved The Last Hunt. White Scars are cool.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 04:27

Inspector_666: Oct 7, 2003; _{benny with the good hair}

Man that ending for The Dark City was pretty grim.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 11:45

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

grim... and dark? grim...dark? grim-dark, one might say?

# ? Aug 19, 2022 11:59

Cooked Auto: Aug 4, 2007

https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1560621292264468480

Sounds to me like this hasn't sold as well as they expected if there's still copies available.
But that almost sounds on par for xenos books sadly.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 14:37

Nissin Cup Nudist: Sep 3, 2011; Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land

Cooked Auto posted:

https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1560621292264468480

Sounds to me like this hasn't sold as well as they expected if there's still copies available.
But that almost sounds on par for xenos books sadly.

I would totally buy it, but it's $150

# ? Aug 19, 2022 15:02

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

Sephyr posted:

I thought Layak yeets himself openly in The First Wall because Abaddon has to be in the plot until the actual setting kicks in. And the Trisagion, with its massive guns and troops, is not there. Ditto for the Blessed Lady .

But I may be mistaken. The books kinda blend together fir me in that part.

I read Severed and it was an oddly sweet/funny 40K story. Not great, but also with no pretentious of being anything other than what it was. Any other good Necron books (I have only read that one and The Infinite and the Divine).

Layak died in order to summon daemons to Terra, but prior to that he was overall in charge of the word bearers on Terra. It�s not clear who is in charge now, if anyone, but they�re definitely present.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 15:03

AnEdgelord: Dec 12, 2016

Cooked Auto posted:

https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1560621292264468480

Sounds to me like this hasn't sold as well as they expected if there's still copies available.
But that almost sounds on par for xenos books sadly.

I will absolutely pick up the audiobook to listen to it at work but an expensive special edition is not something Im interested in tbh.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 15:13

a shitty king: Mar 26, 2010

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

Layak died in order to summon daemons to Terra, but prior to that he was overall in charge of the word bearers on Terra. It’s not clear who is in charge now, if anyone, but they’re definitely present.

I'm definitely expecting multiple 'BY GOD, ITS LORGAR / ALPHARIUS / FERRUS MANUS HEADLESS BODY COMING INTO THE RING WITH THE STEEL CHAIR' moments by in the last books.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 15:26

Broken Record Talk: Jul 28, 2009; A three-hundred thousand degree baptism by nuclear fire;
we had it coming.

a lovely king posted:

I'm definitely expecting multiple 'BY GOD, ITS LORGAR / ALPHARIUS / FERRUS MANUS HEADLESS BODY COMING INTO THE RING WITH THE STEEL CHAIR' moments by in the last books.

Alpharius is hinted at being part of the Perpetual squad heading to the Emperor (by which I mean flat out stated to be part of it, but :shrug:

Alpha Legion :shrug:

) and Ferrus Manus already came in with the steel chair in the webway, which was quite a :pcgaming:

moment in Master of Mankind.

If Lorgar ever shows up again, I hope it's just for the rest of his brothers to tell him he's a worthless bitchbaby, and kick him out of the clubhouse, again. Dude sucks more than a Dyson vacuum.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 16:39

Brendan Rodgers: Jun 11, 2014

Broken Record Talk posted:

Alpharius is hinted at being part of the Perpetual squad heading to the Emperor (by which I mean flat out stated to be part of it, but Alpha Legion ) and Ferrus Manus already came in with the steel chair in the webway, which was quite a moment in Master of Mankind.

If Lorgar ever shows up again, I hope it's just for the rest of his brothers to tell him he's a worthless bitchbaby, and kick him out of the clubhouse, again. Dude sucks more than a Dyson vacuum.

Yeah it's Alpha Legion and all, but at this point there's so much evidence that one of Alpharius or Omegon was involved in both 30k and 40k as a major player.

I know John French "confirmed" that Alpharius is dead when he was asked about it, but what was he meant to say? "Oh no actually, years from now, there will be a big twist involving multiple writers and some part of the Emperor will be active again in 41k"?

Could have been Omegon as has been hinted at. Or a fakeout. Could be that weird stuff with feeding Alpharius' blood to one of the normal Legionnaires and them almost metaphysically "becoming" Alpharius temporarily.

Also the Hydra has three heads.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 17:20

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

Brendan Rodgers posted:

Also the Hydra has three heads.

I'm just saying, but that scene where Dorn meets with three alpha legionnaires and picks out Alpharius from them has 3 alphas.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 17:36

notaspy: Mar 22, 2009

Broken Record Talk posted:

Ferrus Manus already came in with the steel chair in the webway, which was quite a moment in Master of Mankind.

I don't remember this bit, could you jog my memory as I only pay half attention to anything

# ? Aug 19, 2022 17:41

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 10:35

DaysBefore: Jan 24, 2019

When Alpharius got ganked on Pluto wasn't there, like, a soul explosion followed by a scene where Omegon, on the other side of the galaxy, has a Thats So Raven moment to explicitly confirm that it was THE Alpharius who got got

Edit: it makes sense that way to me. Other stuff hints that after seeing through the Cabal, Alpharius got more devoted to the rebel cause whereas Omegon did stuff that benefitted loyalists. It's super vague yeah, but I got the slight feeling that there's supposed to be some kind of shadow civil war in the Alpha's between Alpharius and Omegon.

DaysBefore fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Aug 19, 2022

# ? Aug 19, 2022 17:51

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