Climate Change: There are no jobs on a dead planet

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Climate Change: There are no jobs on a dead planet

HookedOnChthonics: Dec 5, 2015; Profoundly dull

Yeah just to expand/be less glib, for the purposes of climate I think there�s not really a difference between veganism and merely eating vastly less meat. I think the actual important part is that we all need to conceptualize the industrial meat system (and therefore presence of meat in the daily diet) as being part and parcel of the unsustainable fossil-fueled economy which is leading to climate disaster and a destabilized biosphere�you can�t cordon it off and say �ah yes we�ll get +20 Climate from nuclear and another +15 from EVs and we�ll be able to sustain the -30 from CAFO; cheap ground beef every meal forever!!!�

The key part here is that giving up meat is *necessary,* just as curtailing personal car use and disposable packaging are necessary�doesn�t mean they look any more likely to happen

But there is no sustainable outcome where climate change is no longer a problem while meat is still as abundantly consumed as it is now. We should be looking at pre-industrial standards to understand what the patterns of sustainable life could look like�so, for most people, meat would be parceled into �everyday� dishes in very small quantity as flavoring, and only enjoyed as the �main course� on special occasions.

But I�m interested in exploring more why talking about meat gets people�s hackles up in a way that almost no other aspects of this topic do. One theory�above posters are correct that individual consumer choices need to add up to a large, large aggregate before they have any concrete effect, but there�s another perspective on the choice I think�that of embracing collapse early to beat the rush. Choosing to eliminate meat from your diet now is a way of bringing yourself a step closer, of your own volition, to a reasonable understanding of the material conditions you might inhabit after further breakdown of the status quo. I have to believe that at least some of the cultural contempt for veganism is a subconscious expression of this understanding from people who are societally conditioned to deny that such lifestyle changes would ever be necessary; that the total departure of consumerism from material reality is to be celebrated as �progress� (and that there definitely will never be a bill to pay for it; god gave man dominion over the earth &etc &etc)

# ? Aug 21, 2022 18:32

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 1, 2024 18:06

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

No mostly it's just that vegans are annoying and it's an obvious bait and switch to go from cafo to full veganism.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 19:16

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

I'm really excited about the advances made in meat substitutes (Beyond, Impossible, etc) and in cultivated meats and fish. I look forward to a day when I can enjoy delicious animal flesh without having to feel bad about it.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 19:29

HookedOnChthonics: Dec 5, 2015; Profoundly dull

I think �lab meat� has proven to be a blind alley re: energy inputs and price but yeah I�m 100% with you on all the incredible advancements made recently in squeezing pea protein into different meaty textures and shapes. There are some applications where I think we�re completely already �there� in terms of having easy 1:1 replacements that would satisfy most meat-eaters�Sweet Earth�s chicken products, Field Roast sausage and chorizo, Gardein fried fish filets, crab cakes, and chicken nuggets, Beyond burgers, sausages, and jerky�if someone handed you a loaded sandwich containing these rather than meat at a cookout, it�s possible that you would notice if you�re paying attention but any objection would be patently ridiculous, they�re just as good. Nowadays you can go 100% vegan and still be a tendies-and-burgs goblin person, it rules.

It�s also part of why I think the idea giving up meat is so upsetting for people; in absence of real, definitive material obstacles to making that kind of change (versus, say, choosing to give up personal car transport) emotion has to pick up more of the slack.

Now are these products also a manifestation of unsustainable industrial production? Sure, but because going up a level on the food chain always entails a tenfold reduction in useable calorie yields I�m pretty confident that soy and pea protein will carry us a lot further forward into the future than beef.

Harold Fjord posted:

No mostly it's just that vegans are annoying and it's an obvious bait and switch to go from cafo to full veganism.

Who is trying to bait you? What are you worried will be switched? No one is attempting to deceive you

# ? Aug 21, 2022 19:55

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

I'mma open a chain of turkey restaurants offering affordable fast casual meals while beef prices soar. No war but class war.

HookedOnChthonics posted:

Who is trying to bait you? What are you worried will be switched? No one is attempting to deceive you

We've been responding to a vegan insisting on veganism for co2 benefits without any consideration of the range of options for lower co2 meats, eggs, etc. Maybe that's the wrong metaphorical phrase for it.

Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Aug 21, 2022

# ? Aug 21, 2022 19:57

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

HookedOnChthonics posted:

There are some applications where I think we�re completely already �there� in terms of having easy 1:1 replacements that would satisfy most meat-eaters�Sweet Earth�s chicken products, Field Roast sausage and chorizo, Gardein fried fish filets, crab cakes, and chicken nuggets, Beyond burgers, sausages, and jerky�if someone handed you a loaded sandwich containing these rather than meat at a cookout, it�s possible that you would notice if you�re paying attention but any objection would be patently ridiculous, they�re just as good. Nowadays you can go 100% vegan and still be a tendies-and-burgs goblin person, it rules.

I'm more of a tendies-and-burgs goblin person now than I was when I ate meat. Typical burger meat, processed chicken, etc, is low quality and just does not taste good to me, but the processed fake meats all taste pretty good.

Pro-tip: Try pizza with cashew "ricotta" or "mozarella", which you can make at home very easily. It makes you feel a lot less gross than regular pizza, and lets other good ingredients shine through better.

But yeah, I totally agree that veganism for everyone is completely unrealistic and dumb, but industrial production of low-quality meat could be taken up by Beyond Beef & friends. I think most people would prefer it if they didn't know they are supposed to hate it because its gay vegan food.

cat botherer fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 21, 2022

# ? Aug 21, 2022 21:35

Dog King: May 19, 2021; by Fluffdaddy

cat botherer posted:

Industrial meat production has been a disaster, no argument. Meat is too important of a part of too many cultures to go away completely. Instead, we should aim for de-industrializing meat production, with meat going back to its former place throughout agricultural history of being a very small part of people's diet.

Meat was not a very small part of "people's" diet throughout agricultural history. It was a very small part of the diets of the brutally exploited and subjugated classes. The lords who were able to eat what they wanted ate plenty of meat^source, and this preference remains today in the form of wealthier countries, where a nutritionally complete vegetarian diet is MORE possible, yet they still eat more meat than less wealthy countries. Humans also enjoyed meat, particularly fish^source, before the neolithic revolution, after which we ate less meat and were less healthy^source. The reason we stopped eating as much wasn't because we wanted to, it was because our population density became too high for an optimal lifestyle given the resources, and because social stratification almost always followed the development of agriculture so what resources we DID have were hoarded by those with the most power.

And just as it's always been, it remains a class issue. When the WEF says we're going to be eating less meat, or more bugs, they aren't talking about Klaus Schwab's diet. They're talking about yours and mine.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 23:33

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Dog King posted:

Meat was not a very small part of "people's" diet throughout agricultural history. It was a very small part of the diets of the brutally exploited and subjugated classes. The lords who were able to eat what they wanted ate plenty of meat^source, and this preference remains today in the form of wealthier countries, where a nutritionally complete vegetarian diet is MORE possible, yet they still eat more meat than less wealthy countries. Humans also enjoyed meat, particularly fish^source, before the neolithic revolution, after which we ate less meat and were less healthy^source. The reason we stopped eating as much wasn't because we wanted to, it was because our population density became too high for an optimal lifestyle given the resources, and because social stratification almost always followed the development of agriculture so what resources we DID have were hoarded by those with the most power.

And just as it's always been, it remains a class issue. When the WEF says we're going to be eating less meat, or more bugs, they aren't talking about Klaus Schwab's diet. They're talking about yours and mine.

Please tell me why exploitation of poor people is bad and then explain why breeding and killing sentient beings for your pleasure is good

# ? Aug 22, 2022 01:03

BIG-DICK-BUTT-FUCK: Jan 26, 2016; by Fluffdaddy

cat botherer posted:

With the price of beef going through the loving roof as conditions degrade, people's meat consumption will naturally slow down. It would be a lot better to get ahead of further damage by forcing the meat industry to pay for their negative externalities, but lol that won't ever happen.

Hell, I'd settle for a halt to US beef subsidies.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 02:00

BIG-DICK-BUTT-FUCK: Jan 26, 2016; by Fluffdaddy

Harold Fjord posted:

I'mma open a chain of turkey restaurants offering affordable fast casual meals while beef prices soar. No war but class war.

We've been responding to a vegan insisting on veganism for co2 benefits without any consideration of the range of options for lower co2 meats, eggs, etc. Maybe that's the wrong metaphorical phrase for it.

nobody knows the "sustainable" amount of meat/animal products for the individual to consume, so you play it safe by aiming for none. At least that's my understanding of it. I can understand why it's off-putting

Mass veganism is unrealistic but a short term phase out of beef/dairy/etc subsidies would be a good start. Maybe combine w subsidies for plant-based alternatives to help ease the transition. Personally I think animal products will get more expensive and less available each year, which is a big reason why Im mostly vegan these days .. Less supply shocks to my food supply chain

# ? Aug 22, 2022 02:07

BRJurgis: Aug 15, 2007; Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

Consumption of all animals even up to humans is a natural response from the point of survival and thus will never be eradicated on an individual choice level (shaming depends on name and relatability of meal subject).

For real though (not that what I said is false), the scale and capture of our consumption is obviously the problem. We should all eat less meat, but until we fundamentally change the structure of our world vegan purity tests (sorry if that's heavy handed) not only is a harder sell but serves more to divide as evidenced by this thread.*

Stop eating beef if you can, maybe switch all your meat purchases to more local and/or sustainable options. I eat 2-5 local eggs every day it's a major part of my diet... i don't expect to stop. Personal choices (until we attain a mass movement or real change) just help us sleep at night.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 02:16

Hello Sailor: May 3, 2006; we're all mad here

Enjoy posted:

Please tell me why exploitation of poor people is bad and then explain why breeding and killing sentient beings for your pleasure is good

No, you explain why you've chosen the arbitrary hill of "sentient beings" to die on instead of "sapient beings", "human beings", or "all living beings", then explain why anyone else should give a gently caress about your arbitrary choice.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 02:45

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Hello Sailor posted:

No, you explain why you've chosen the arbitrary hill of "sentient beings" to die on instead of "sapient beings", "human beings", or "all living beings", then explain why anyone else should give a gently caress about your arbitrary choice.

Sentience is the hill to die on because it means the ability to suffer, feel pain, and fear death.

Most people in this thread are probably okay with abortion, and even euthanasia, because people aren't actually concerned with "human beings" per se, but with the subject. Animals are also subjects.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 03:04

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Harold Fjord posted:

I'mma open a chain of turkey restaurants offering affordable fast casual meals while beef prices soar. No war but class war.

Turkeyque is already a thing in African American Muslim areas of some US cities.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 03:14

Hello Sailor: May 3, 2006; we're all mad here

Enjoy posted:

Sentience is the hill to die on because it means the ability to suffer, feel pain, and fear death.

Most people in this thread are probably okay with abortion, and even euthanasia, because people aren't actually concerned with "human beings" per se, but with the subject. Animals are also subjects.

So if we prevent non-human sentient beings from experiencing pain, suffering, and knowing they're going to be slaughtered, you're on board with still killing them?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 05:00

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Hello Sailor posted:

So if we prevent non-human sentient beings from experiencing pain, suffering, and knowing they're going to be slaughtered, you're on board with still killing them?

Yes but I don't think that's possible without some kind of cloning and genetic engineering process.

All the meat people in this thread are paying for is a product of forced breeding, torture and murder of a sentient being fully aware of the horrors it's going through.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 05:04

THE BAR: Oct 20, 2011; You know what might look better on your nose?

Enjoy posted:

Yes but I don't think that's possible without some kind of cloning and genetic engineering process.

All the meat people in this thread are paying for is a product of forced breeding, torture and murder of a sentient being fully aware of the horrors it's going through.

I've always said we need to gene magic up some kind of pig without brain activity, extra long, and stackable like rolls of cloth.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 08:12

Electric Wrigglies: Feb 6, 2015

Enjoy posted:

Sentience is the hill to die on because it means the ability to suffer, feel pain, and fear death.

Most people in this thread are probably okay with abortion, and even euthanasia, because people aren't actually concerned with "human beings" per se, but with the subject. Animals are also subjects.

Animals are not the subject of this thread, climate is the subject in the climate thread. But it has been turned into a vegan thread despite all agreeing that encouraging less meat eating would be good for the environment. But that is not good enough and only enforcing your beliefs on others is the only good result. Proving once again that you (among many if not most vegans), place the climate emergency below veganism as a priority. The climate change thread is just another location to agitate for your beliefs. Knowing that it will impair* the fight for climate change implicitly demonstrating that for vegans the climate emergency is not such a big deal and probably overhyped anyway.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 08:55

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Electric Wrigglies posted:

Animals are not the subject of this thread, climate is the subject in the climate thread. But it has been turned into a vegan thread despite all agreeing that encouraging less meat eating would be good for the environment. But that is not good enough and only enforcing your beliefs on others is the only good result. Proving once again that you (among many if not most vegans), place the climate emergency below veganism as a priority. The climate change thread is just another location to agitate for your beliefs. Knowing that it will impair* the fight for climate change implicitly demonstrating that for vegans the climate emergency is not such a big deal and probably overhyped anyway.

Telling the posters in this thread to stop eating meat won't impair anything lol

# ? Aug 22, 2022 09:17

Homeless Friend: Jul 16, 2007

Enjoy posted:

Please tell me why exploitation of poor people is bad and then explain why breeding and killing sentient beings for your pleasure is good

exploitation is going to happen, animals can't organize.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 09:22

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Homeless Friend posted:

exploitation is going to happen, animals can't organize.

So might makes right?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 09:26

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Enjoy posted:

Telling the posters in this thread to stop eating meat won't impair anything lol

I applaud what you are trying to show here but you definitely gonna get probed for it sooner or later when the cognitive dissonance gets too strong

# ? Aug 22, 2022 09:34

Homeless Friend: Jul 16, 2007

Enjoy posted:

So might makes right?

Shorten it, might makes. Of course, in a perfect moral calculus I think we all can agree, that completely abolishing necessitating suffering for what is a luxury makes perfect sense. In reality, just because one agrees doesn't mean action will follow. Like how you won't make me breakfast, lunch and dinner to fulfill your vision.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 09:38

TheBlackVegetable: Oct 29, 2006

Some eco-terrorist should engineer a virus to kill all the cows

# ? Aug 22, 2022 10:30

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

TheBlackVegetable posted:

Some eco-terrorist should engineer a virus to kill all the cows

You may have a hard time selling this plan to the ~15% of the planet who feel quite strongly about cows.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 11:46

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

GABA ghoul posted:

I applaud what you are trying to show here but you definitely gonna get probed for it sooner or later when the cognitive dissonance gets too strong

There's no cognitive dissonance for anyone here, it's just annoying.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 12:29

smug n stuff: Jul 21, 2016; A Hobbit's Adventure

Has there ever been a D&D animal rights/veganism thread? Seems like definitely a interesting enough subject to have its own.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 12:57

TheBlackVegetable: Oct 29, 2006

mawarannahr posted:

You may have a hard time selling this plan to the ~15% of the planet who feel quite strongly about cows.

That's ok, they'll be dead soon. Along with most everyone and all the cows.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 14:11

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

HookedOnChthonics posted:

But there is no sustainable outcome where climate change is no longer a problem while meat is still as abundantly consumed as it is now.

That's our boundary condition.

We can hem and haw all we want about political sensitivities, but that doesn't change anything.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 14:20

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

We can't shoehorn this problem to fit solutions that would be hypothetically palatable to status quo political sensitivities. Such solutions are definitionally not solutions.

Climate change is terrifying because the solutions have to solve the problem. It's why climate grieving is such an intense mourning process.

mawarannahr posted:

You may have a hard time selling this plan to the ~15% of the planet who feel quite strongly about cows.

In an alternate timeline, BOVID-19 permanently reduced global emissions while unfucking some of our land use waste.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 14:28

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

Well now that it's been made abundantly clear that the discussion is not about CO2 emissions at all, let's move on to climate stuff. If you'd like to discuss veganism and animal welfare and all the associated moral and philosophical calculus, please make a thread dedicated to it, there's obviously a lot of desire to do battle over the subject.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 16:17

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

A couple of positive articles from this morning.

US to see renewable energy boom in wake of historic climate bill
Solar and wind projects to expand in size and provide bulk of total American electricity supply by decade�s end, study shows
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/30/renewable-energy-climate-bill-solar-wind

quote:

Renewable energy is set for an unprecedented boom in the US in the wake of its first ever climate bill, with the capacity of solar and wind projects expected to double by the end of the decade and providing the bulk of total American electricity supply, new analysis has shown.

The passage of the legislation, known as the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), will help propel the US towards the forefront of the clean energy economy, experts predict, helping it compete with China on the manufacturing and installation of solar panels, wind turbines, batteries and emerging zero carbon technology.

The tax credits contained in the bill�s $370bn of climate spending should help double the capacity of installed wind and solar by 2030, according to an updated analysis by the research firm Energy Innovation. This extra resource could enable clean electricity to provide anything from 72% to 85% of total US supply by this time, flowing from 795 to 1,053 gigawatts of cumulative solar and wind capacity.

�This bill is going to make it very cheap to create clean electricity � you are going to get an incredible amount of deployment of solar and wind,� said Robbie Orvis, a senior director of analysis at Energy Innovation.

�It will really unleash investment in renewables. It has all the incentives to grow the industry domestically. It�s a complete jump-start for renewables.�

About $180bn in extra capital investment in renewables could be spent by 2030, according to Energy Innovation. A separate research group, Rystad Energy, has forecast even more will be funneled into the sector � about $270bn � leading to hundreds of thousands of new jobs. �The Inflation Reduction Act is a game changer for the US wind and solar industry,� said Marcelo Ortega, renewables analyst at Rystad.

Previously, wind and solar developers had to rely upon short-term tax breaks and partner with banks or other large institutions. The new bill provides the certainty of a 10-year tax credit program and allows the credits to be transferrable to the developers themselves. There is also billions of dollars for the domestic manufacturing of clean energy components, as well as rebates for people to buy electric cars.

The White House has said the legislation will save the country as much as $1.9tn in climate-related costs by the mid-point of the century, through reduced deaths and property damage caused by extreme heat, floods, drought and wildfires. Joe Biden has called the bill an �historic moment� and has vowed to slash US emissions in half this decade.

Climate campaigners have welcomed the legislation as a long-overdue breakthrough, although they have criticized aspects of the legislation that throw open large areas of public lands to oil and gas drilling. The concessions to fossil fuels were borne from a compromise struck with Joe Manchin, the centrist Democrat and key swing senate vote who has received more money in donations from the oil and gas industry than any other senator.

Still, even with the extra land and waters given over to drilling, several different analysts have forecast that the US should cut its planet-heating emissions by about 40% by the end of this decade, boosting the global effort to stave off disastrous climate change.

Such predictions could, however, be hampered by variables such as the supply chain problems currently hampering the production of electric vehicles, economic downturns, problems in building out transmission infrastructure to move clean electricity around the country and resistance from local communities to new wind and solar developments.

�Every single number has to be taken with a big grain of salt. There are a lot of big assumptions, but taken together these analyses all show this bill is a big deal and I agree with that,� said James Stock, an economist at Harvard University.

�We need to make sure these projects are built � if we go into traditional American project gridlock, that will be a problem. But this promises to be a transformational moment � we will see decarbonization this decade, which is very exciting.�

The spending is likely to catch the attention of China, the leader in clean energy production. �It�s clear that the Inflation Reduction Act will push the clean energy race into overdrive,� said Gernot Wagner, climate economist at Columbia Business School.

�The specific impact, of course, is anyone�s guess. That�s especially true because the IRA isn�t just a continuation of past policies. It�s a policy tipping point � and a positive one at that.�

Governments Are Rethinking Nuclear Power
In the face of rising energy prices, Germany, California, and Japan are reconsidering early nuclear plant retirement.
https://gizmodo.com/california-japan-germany-reconsider-nuclear-power-1849468599

quote:

The crisis in Ukraine may be rushing in a new golden age for nuclear power. Recent announcements from Germany, California, and Japan�three places where early retirement of nuclear plants has been a heated policy debate�signal that the world�s energy crisis could be turning the tide on nuclear energy.

The summer�s biggest surprise in the EU came in late July, when leaders of the German government began indicating that they were open to keeping the country�s remaining nuclear plants open amid skyrocketing energy prices. Germany in particular has been hard hit by the Ukraine war, as it imports a huge amount of its natural gas supply from Russia.

The process of decommissioning Germany�s nuclear plants has been a decades-long journey as part of its larger energy transition, known as Energiewende, but the retirements were accelerated after the Fukushima accident in 2011. Currently, only three of the 17 nuclear power plants that were operating a decade ago in Germany are still in use, providing about 6% of the country�s electricity; all three of these plants are scheduled to be retired by the end of this year.

�Germany has a really large and really strong anti-nuclear movement, ever since the 1980s,� said Jessica Lovering, the cofounder and executive director of Good Energy Collective, a pro-nuclear research group. �They felt that they were impacted from the fallout of Chernobyl, and that�s where that sort of movement gained a lot of momentum. Germany also has a very strong coal industry. The coal industry has long lobbied to close nuclear power plants, because that�s their competition.�

After Russia invaded Ukraine in March, Germany�s neighbor Belgium almost immediately worked out a deal with its nuclear provider, Engie, to extend the life of two of its reactors, which were set to be retired in the middle of this decade, for another 10 years. Germany, however, seemed set on keeping its initial retirement date, despite soaring energy prices�until this month, when Chancellor Olaf Scholz said he wanted to wait for the results of a comprehensive �stress test� later this year to determine whether or not the plants should be retired.

�It does make a lot of logical sense,� said Lovering. �They don�t have a lot of other options. They�re doing sort of everything they can to reduce gas consumption. And this is a really simple thing that can be done. Easy.�

�If you kept nuclear plants running, you could shut down coal plants.�
That�s also the sentiment that seems to be prevailing thousands of miles away, in California. Earlier this month, Gov. Gavin Newsom announced that he would pressure to keep open Diablo Canyon, a 2,240-megawatt plant situated on California�s southern coast, to help with the state�s aggressive decarbonization goals; a draft bill, introduced late on Sunday, provides a pathway to extend the plant�s life an additional five years past its scheduled retirement date in 2025. �In the face of extreme heat, wildfires, and other extreme events that strain our current electrical system, the state is focused on maintaining energy reliability while accelerating efforts to combat climate change,� the governor�s office said in a statement earlier this month.

A slew of complex issues, including water permits and the steep costs of operation, led the California plant�s operator, Pacific Gas & Electric, to announce in 2016 that it planned to retire the facility at the end of its federal license�a welcome piece of news for anti-nuclear environmentalists in the state, who had long protested the plant thanks in part to its location along earthquake fault lines. But the plant, the last functioning nuclear plant in the state, provides almost 10% of California�s electricity, and the new bill allows up to $1.4 billion in loans from the state to keep the facility running.

�If you kept nuclear plants running, you could shut down coal plants,� said Matt Bowen, a research scholar at Columbia University�s Center on Global Energy Policy. �That would mean much lower CO2 emissions as well as much lower air pollution.�

Keeping aging plants open is one thing, but building new ones is a different conversation entirely�one that Japan, of all places, is wading into. Last week, Prime Minister Fumio Kishida said that Japan would consider restarting some of its nuclear plants, many of which have sat idle since the Fukushima disaster. Kishida also said that the country is exploring the option of building new next-generation reactors, with a goal of bringing them online in the 2030s.

�Japan is one of the best in the world in terms of building new nuclear power plants,� said Bowen.

Even though gearing up nuclear power could help wean countries and states off of fossil fuels, it doesn�t mean their reliance on Russia will go away entirely. Russia is one of the world�s most important stops in the supply chain for nuclear fuel, providing 46% of the world�s uranium enrichment capacity and 40% of its uranium conversion. If the crisis in Ukraine drags on for years, countries that are increasing or maintaining their nuclear capacity may need to find other sources for fuel production.

Public trust in the safety of nuclear power is another key issue, especially in Japan, which saw anti-nuclear sentiment skyrocket after a 2011 tsunami caused a nuclear meltdown at the Fukushima plant. Bowen pointed out that Kishida has floated small modular reactors as possibilities�technology that eliminates the need for electric pumps to circulate coolant, the systems that failed during the 2011 disaster.

�Is that going to be enough for the general public?� he said. �I don�t know.�

There are still bumps in the road for both California and Germany. Some high-powered German officials, including its economy minister, have pushed back against the idea of keeping their plants open, while Newsom faces a challenging battle to get his bill passed before the legislature adjourns on Wednesday. But the fact that the discussion is on the table at all, Bowen said, is notable.

�To be honest, I�d kind of written [California and Germany] off, but it makes sense to me that they would reconsider,� said Bowen. �I think it�s the logical thing to do.�

# ? Aug 30, 2022 18:14

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Harold Fjord posted:

No mostly it's just that vegans are annoying and it's an obvious bait and switch to go from cafo to full veganism.

Arguing for eating less meat is more effective than arguing for veganism.

# ? Aug 30, 2022 21:35

BIG HEADLINE: Jun 13, 2006; "Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

VideoGameVet posted:

Arguing for eating less meat is more effective than arguing for veganism.

I can't wait for the "Liberals want you to eat nothing bugs, beans, and twigs, I want you to be able to enjoy your RED BLOODED AMERICAN RIGHT to tear into a 60oz Porterhouse every night if you want because FREEDUM" lines in political ads and debates.

# ? Aug 30, 2022 22:19

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

BIG HEADLINE posted:

I can't wait for the "Liberals want you to eat nothing bugs, beans, and twigs, I want you to be able to enjoy your RED BLOODED AMERICAN RIGHT to tear into a 60oz Porterhouse every night if you want because FREEDUM" lines in political ads and debates.

In Fall 2021, as what was the first draft of the BBBA (which became the IRA) was being floated and debated, FOX News and other right-wing outlets were running "Biden is about to ban hamburgers!!" type pieces. It's already here, you can enjoy the bullshit right now.

example: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/26/fox-news-channel/joe-biden-banning-burgers-fox-news-gop-politicians/

# ? Aug 30, 2022 22:49

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

BIG HEADLINE posted:

I can't wait for the "Liberals want you to eat nothing bugs, beans, and twigs, I want you to be able to enjoy your RED BLOODED AMERICAN RIGHT to tear into a 60oz Porterhouse every night if you want because FREEDUM" lines in political ads and debates.

Yeah, my doctor told me he doesn't advocate my diet/lifestyle to patients because they simply won't give up (or seriously reduce) their consumption of Meat/Dairy and they won't do real exercise.

# ? Aug 30, 2022 23:46

Digamma-F-Wau: Mar 22, 2016; It is curious and wants to accept all kinds of challenges

Hasn't Bison farming been found to have the potential to have a less drastic effect on the environment than Cow farming in America, due to Bison being evolved to actually live here among other things? Finding a way to replace beef with bison in people's diets could be a way to go about things.

# ? Aug 31, 2022 00:10

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Digamma-F-Wau posted:

Hasn't Bison farming been found to have the potential to have a less drastic effect on the environment than Cow farming in America, due to Bison being evolved to actually live here among other things? Finding a way to replace beef with bison in people's diets could be a way to go about things.

Yeah, bison do nowhere near the soil/vegetation damage that cows do grazing (although not much beef comes from open western rangeland anymore).

From what I hear, it hasn't caught on because bison are more dangerous than cows and ranchers are whiny entitled cowards.

# ? Aug 31, 2022 00:13

jeeves: May 27, 2001; Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire

Yeah bison hasn't had the thousands of years of genetic subjugation that cows have had by humans to not turn them into murder machines once they get spooked by heading into a slaughterhouse.

# ? Aug 31, 2022 00:17

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 1, 2024 18:06

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

My experience working in the broader enviro movement has taught me that Ranchers are indeed whiney entitled cowards.

# ? Aug 31, 2022 00:19

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Climate Change: There are no jobs on a dead planet

«‹›546 »