|
Delphisage posted:... and an asspull so bad it's ended up harming the entire battle shonen genre after that point. I know nothing about Yu Yu Hakusho. What was this asspull? I'm very curious now.
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:41 |
|
|
FartingBedpost posted:This p much encapsulates my feelings on mha. It feels like he’s taking all the half baked ideas and trying to shove them together with stuff he’s making up on the fly. So the same thing as the Ninja War, where we have to sit through chapter after chapter of stuff like Hanzo going down to some nobody samurai, or two guys who can trap people in jars and also unleash Kyuubi transformations, or Gaara's dad getting redeemed. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Aug 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:23
|
|
|
Delphisage posted:So the same thing as the Ninja War, where we have to sit through chapter after chapter of stuff like Hanzo going down to some nobody samurai, or two guys who can trap people in jars and also unleash Kyuubi transformations, or Gaara's dad getting redeemed. Don't forget Tenten almost getting to do something!
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:27
|
|
|
I actually really like the anime version of Three Kings, probably more then I like Chapter Black since the Sensui fight goes totally to poo poo when his other personalities show up. Yusuke is by far at his most interesting during Three Kings
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:30
|
|
|
SKULL.GIF posted:I know nothing about Yu Yu Hakusho. What was this asspull? I'm very curious now. I'll spoil it just in case - there's also a recent One Piece twist mixed into these black bars. Demonic Atavism. In summary, the MC Yusuke died because the main villain Sensui was just smothered in powerups and plot armor and killed him. But then we get an out-of-nowhere reveal that Yusuke secretly had one of the strongest demons in existence somewhere in his family tree, allowing him to revive as a super powered-up demon and even get possessed by his still-living demon ancestor to defeat Sensui in his stead. It's a moment that you can see echoes of in stuff like Naruto being a Chosen One born from two uber-blessed parents and a reincarnation of the Sage of Six Paths/'s son, Ichigo's constant half-whatever ancestry retcons (Disclaimer: I haven't read Bleach yet), and even the recent Nika retcon to Luffy's Devil Fruit. Interestingly, if MHA were to go down this path itself, it'd actually be an improvement on our current course - making Deku into All For One's kid would explain why Deku got to draw out all of OFA's quirks instead of just the stockpiled strength like his predecessors while also creating a hilarous irony of how AFO, the most powerful man in the world, ended up with a dud son who ended up becoming an adopted son for his worst enemy due to neglecting him for the sake of fixating on said archenemy. Alternatively, having it turn out Ujiko stole Deku's quirk as a kid would mean OFA would have consequences for Deku using it again. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Aug 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:34
|
|
|
I think you can trace those back to dragon ball as much as anything
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:46
|
|
|
Delphisage posted:I'll spoil it just in case - there's also a recent One Piece twist mixed into these black bars.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:50
|
|
|
this happens in literally the bible multiple times
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 05:51
|
|
|
Endorph posted:i dont think that reveal has anything at all to do with those later reveals. the main character having special ancestry is just like. basic storytelling. it goes back to mythology. the main character having special ancestry or special meaningful powers is an easy handwave for why theyre important. and revealing it at a dramatic moment can move the plot along. The issue isn't with being a special Chosen One like Avatar, or with being revealed as something above humanity all along like Dragonball Z. The issue is when you make it into a dramatic plot twist as a way to write yourself out of a corner the way YYH did it, rather than make it the starting point of the story or as an arc-opening twist to start off a new wave of threat escalation. For one example, Naruto's Chosen One prophecy could've been handled well - the idea of a person who'd bringe about great change or destruction is vague enough that it'd easily serve to explain a lot of Jiraiya's motivation, we already know Naruto is a ticking time bomb that could bring about the end of the world with the Kyuubi, and the idea that Nagato could be the Chosen One would frame any confrontation with Pain to be a hopeless effort fate would look poorly upon. The issue ended up being in the execution - Naruto getting preferencial treatment from the toads seemingly because they're certain he's gonna be a positive influence on the world, Nagato turning out not to be the actual owner of his Rinnegan, and the Chosen One nonsense being extended to excuse Sasuke's behavior and redeemability. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Aug 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 06:00
|
|
|
Endorph posted:this happens in literally the bible multiple times Whatever happened to Jesus after he got his zenkai, anyways, I only know he came back stronger like Obi-wan (is that where they got the idea for Jesus reviving?), but not sure what happens after that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 06:07
|
|
|
the scene where Judas betrays the MC feels rushed and the twist felt unearned, needed more buildup
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 06:11
|
|
|
Delphisage posted:The issue isn't with being a special Chosen One like Avatar, or with being revealed as something above humanity all along like Dragonball Z. The issue is when you make it into a dramatic plot twist as a way to write yourself out of a corner the way YYH did it, rather than make it the starting point of the story or as an arc-opening twist to start off a new wave of threat escalation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 06:14
|
|
|
Endorph posted:sure, but that happens a bunch in extremely old stories, too. yyh didnt invent or popularize this at all. I'm happy to hear examples from Eastern canon that would've been drawn on for this stuff. But again, they can't have been Chosen Ones from the very beginning. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Aug 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 06:19
|
|
|
Flair posted:. If anything, I hope Bakugo does not get resurrected or whatever; that would ruin the final sendoff. My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 06:22
|
|
|
hatty posted:the scene where Judas betrays the MC feels rushed and the twist felt unearned, needed more buildup Thomas showed more doubt, he should've been the traitor, this is 100% the fault of John's editor.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 07:22
|
|
|
hatty posted:the scene where Judas betrays the MC feels rushed and the twist felt unearned, needed more buildup made for a lot of fanfic pairing the two of them though, so the readers ultimately got their moral revenge on whichever combo of john, matthew, mark, and luke was involved
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 07:54
|
|
|
"sudden chosen one syndrome" can be pretty lame but I think Yusuke wasn't too terribly bad because it caused him a lot of trouble too. The back half of chapter black was about when Togashi started dying though which is clear. I still don't think anything really tops bleach for this sort of thing though because while Naruto being super special was kinda lame- at least you could understand the in-world mechanisms for why he was so powerful. I still to this day don't totally understand Ichigo's actual true power or what he's supposed to be. It's borderline incomprehensible
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 12:41
|
|
|
SKULL.GIF posted:I know nothing about Yu Yu Hakusho. What was this asspull? I'm very curious now. It was a something done to setup the dramatic irony of a human fighting for the demon world and a demon fighting for the human world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 13:01
|
|
|
Fabricated posted:I still to this day don't totally understand Ichigo's actual true power or what he's supposed to be. It's borderline incomprehensible He sword good He could maybe sword the best
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 13:22
|
|
|
Ichigo had a little bit of literally every type of power in him. He was powered by all trades, and accomplished jack
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 15:16
|
|
|
Fabricated posted:I still don't think anything really tops bleach for this sort of thing though because while Naruto being super special was kinda lame- at least you could understand the in-world mechanisms for why he was so powerful. I could forgive Naruto more if such a large part of his characterization and the pre-Shippuden story weren't predicated on this conflict between inherited talent (i.e. Chosen One) vs. hard work. The story wants you to think Naruto is emblematic of the cause of determination and hard work when in reality he's just got surrogate inherited ninja powers AND a his parents were the actually special the whole time. The ultimate answer the series gives is that both are better than either alone, but mostly get hosed if you don't have hereditary ninja powers. But yes, I agree, Bleach takes the cake for this.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 15:30
|
|
|
ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:Whatever happened to Jesus after he got his zenkai, anyways, I only know he came back stronger like Obi-wan (is that where they got the idea for Jesus reviving?), but not sure what happens after that. That's probably where Jesus got the idea in-universe. Becoming more powerful than he could possibly imagine when he struck Obi-Wan down worked pretty well for Obi-Wan, after all. Star Wars canon is really weird though, e.g. Anakin finally defeating Sidious by having Rey brandish a cross at him, long long before Anakin/Jesus got crucified. How'd Rey know???
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 15:33
|
|
|
Shere posted:I could forgive Naruto more if such a large part of his characterization and the pre-Shippuden story weren't predicated on this conflict between inherited talent (i.e. Chosen One) vs. hard work. The story wants you to think Naruto is emblematic of the cause of determination and hard work when in reality he's just got surrogate inherited ninja powers AND a his parents were the actually special the whole time. After binging preskip Naruto I really don’t think the intended message was ever “hard work beats talent that doesn’t work hard”. Like, that’s the point of Lee, but Naruto himself was always a giant chakra battery with abnormal resilience/healing properties as early as, like, Zabuza arc. If anything the whole point is to use the thing that makes him hated to become the most respected bigwig ninja in the Hidden Leaf, but even that isn’t really like a stated goal (the turning his burden into a benefit part) before the series turned into “gotta save Sasuke from himself”.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 16:38
|
|
|
Its easy to read "hard work works" into the message of shonen because characters (especially early on) look like they're training. But way more often they just have the best punchmagic, and once escalation sets in the training gets increasingly forgotten or improbable.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 18:13
|
|
|
Naruto was about hard work until he finally figured out the trick to his dumb fox powers and then beep boop he could train just as much as anyone else and not moreso. Sage mode might have been the last time it felt like he struggled with learning something.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 19:02
|
|
|
Shinjobi posted:Naruto was about hard work until he finally figured out the trick to his dumb fox powers and then beep boop he could train just as much as anyone else and not moreso. Sage Mode is cooler than Baryon Mode
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 19:42
|
|
|
hiddenriverninja posted:Sage Mode is cooler than Baryon Mode The Chakra modes in general are lame. It's Kishimoto getting tired of drawing detailed transformations and just making Naruto and Kurama into mostly outlines of themselves.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 20:07
|
|
|
hiddenriverninja posted:Sage Mode is cooler than Baryon Mode Whoa, for some reason I didn't think that Naruto would still be getting/ revealing new forms in Boruto for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 22:29
|
|
|
Fabricated posted:I still don't think anything really tops bleach for this sort of thing though because while Naruto being super special was kinda lame- at least you could understand the in-world mechanisms for why he was so powerful. Yeah, I seem to remember towards the end of Bleach it basically came down to Ichigo being some crazy half human, half shinigami, half quincy, and half hollow hybrid. Yes, that new math where you can be four halves.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 22:56
|
|
|
Indiana_Krom posted:Yeah, I seem to remember towards the end of Bleach it basically came down to Ichigo being some crazy half human, half shinigami, half quincy, and half hollow hybrid. Yes, that new math where you can be four halves.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 23:06
|
|
|
I still appreciate that One Piece never made Luffy the son of Roger. That seemed like it was always going to be the reveal, especially because they hinted at his grandpa before his father. So the story focusing on inherited will, not direct bloodlines, is way more interesting that way.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 23:22
|
|
|
Woozie66 posted:I still appreciate that One Piece never made Luffy the son of Roger. That seemed like it was always going to be the reveal, especially because they hinted at his grandpa before his father. So the story focusing on inherited will, not direct bloodlines, is way more interesting that way. I mean he's still the son of the Revolutionary leader and grandson of a legendary marine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 23:35
|
|
|
Woozie66 posted:I still appreciate that One Piece never made Luffy the son of Roger. That seemed like it was always going to be the reveal, especially because they hinted at his grandpa before his father. So the story focusing on inherited will, not direct bloodlines, is way more interesting that way. I mean, he is the son of Dragon, so it's not like he skipped out on the major player relatives. That's something about Chainsaw Man, in addition to everything else. As of chapter 103, all Denji got from his family was crippling debt and a terminal heart condition.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 23:36
|
|
|
Naruto being Ninja Jesus wasn't bad because it invalidates hard work, it's bad because it changes the story from being about the younger generation being forced to deal with the sins of the previous ones to being about Space Gods from the moon or some poo poo. It's just eye-rolling and best ignored.RatHat posted:I mean he's still the son of the Revolutionary leader and grandson of a legendary marine. Yeah but nobody really cares about this and it doesn't have anything to do with the plot. Luffy doesn't owe anything about who he is to either of them, his real family is 100% adopted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 23:44
|
|
|
RatHat posted:I mean he's still the son of the Revolutionary leader and grandson of a legendary marine. Hey, I just meant they didn't go the obvious route. And they killed off the actual son of Roger. Focus is still on found family!
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2022 23:44
|
|
|
Luffy didn't even know he had a father until Garp told him.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2022 00:34
|
|
|
Also Dragon himself has barely been relevant.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2022 00:56
|
|
|
Dragon is the only Shonen dad with a 100% airtight excuse as to why he isn't in his son's life.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2022 01:15
|
|
|
I'm not even sure Dragon is very powerful for the stage of the story we're in. Like if it comes down to a fight between the 4 emperors of the sea, Dragon can maybe beat Buggy.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2022 01:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:41 |
|
|
Funky Valentine posted:Dragon is the only Shonen dad with a 100% airtight excuse as to why he isn't in his son's life. Nah, Dragon may be doing good things for the world but that's only like 99% of a good excuse. Meanwhile, Yasopp has a literal disease where he will die if he meets his son.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2022 01:33
|
|
