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Sevarian from Book of the New Sun is probably a worse person by an order of magnitude.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:21
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Knowing nothing about Coventry of Tom, I can say for certain Severian was.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:43
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Gnoman posted:I didn't like that for the pretty simple reason that the Lord Ruler wasn't the actual Hero, he was some jealous asshat who shanked the Hero and was unfit to actually replace him, so it felt like Sanderson chickened out on an actually clever idea. Except that the Hero was going to release Ruin who would destroy the world(universe?) after it got out. The Lord Ruler (according to the Wikipedia summary I read because it's been a couple decades since I read the series) had been ordered to shank the Hero to prevent that.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:45
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MartingaleJack posted:Sevarian from Book of the New Sun is probably a worse person by an order of magnitude. Yeah and I have tried three times now to get into that book and I just can't. I can read about terrible people but something has to carry me through, and for whatever reason Gene Wolfe does not click with me. I've tried the Wizard Knight and New Sun a few times each. I'll probably keep trying! One day maybe it'll click. I don't know if other folk feel this, but sometimes I *really* have to be in the right headspace for a certain book. Trying to force it feels like homework.
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Aug 30, 2022 23:48
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If you want, the Long Sun cycle doesn't spoil anything for New Sun and it's principal character Silk is maybe the nicest character in any book I've met. Dude really with his whole heart just wants people to live their best lives and be happy. Dude spends most his time trying to impress wisdom on the younger generations, help out the destitute of his quarter even the church non attendees, and frying tomatoes. Short Sun is more connected and shouldn't be read without New Sun and Urth
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Aug 30, 2022 23:56
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I haven't read or heard of a fantasy or sci-fi novel about horrible people doing horrible things that sounds remotely appealing unless Titus Groan/Gormenghast (which I only know by reputation but have on my to-read list) fits that niche I think it's probably really hard to do that with a sci-fi or fantasy work that's too far removed from the real world because usually when a protagonist that's a horrible person works, we can at least sympathize a little with why they're doing what they're doing, and readers usually need a hook of some sort like that. This is the bread and butter of crime stories. The characters get to exist outside of real world social conventions that can feel stifling and do things the audience can't really do, but those real world conventions are present enough in the story they both function by way of contrast to tell you what the appeal of these characters are, and remind you why they're conventions at all. Or else, you can have something like The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly which succeeds very well as an action-adventure epic with a completely immoral main cast, but it works in large part less by pushing against stifling conventions (it does do some of this though) but more by actively mocking real-world sentimentality about the American Civil War. The satirical edge clearly grounds why it's fun to watch these horrible people be horrible. But in fantasy and sci-fi, unless very clearly extrapolating something from the real world to some extreme (AFAIK the Gormenghast books do this), often breaks loose from the real world enough that it becomes a harder sell, especially if we've got a nerd author interested in 'worldbuilding'. Anything the author puts in the setting doesn't get the automatic pass that it says anything about the real world, the audience needs to be convinced it says something about the real world. Maybe the author succeeds at this! Lord knows somehow people were convinced A Game of Thrones is more 'realistic' than it is. But there's an extra step to take here where the setting of the bad-guy protagonist's actions has to justify itself in fantasy/sci-fi moreso than if we were dealing with such a protagonist in their more conventional contexts. It's just not inherently compelling in the same way to see a character break some social or ethical code that also only exists because of the author, unless the author convinces us it has a reason to exist beyond antagonizing the protagonist.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:11
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I don't wanna get too kissassy here but a recentish thing that to me was genuinely dark and shocking and good in SF/F was the end of Baru 1, and I think it's because that darkness is interpersonal, they could be in our world and a similar story could play out and the word victory would still taste like grave dirt. Obviously there aren't 100% direct real world analogues to every single secondary world element but being asked to sacrifice everything for power is an experience that people in this world can understand even if they've never done the same, it's a people thing, people remain people wherever you put them. Baru is somebody in a lovely world trying to do good and it leads her to commit a horrible act, and that to me is good darkness. SurreptitiousMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 00:36
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Falls Down Stairs posted:But there's an extra step to take here where the setting of the bad-guy protagonist's actions has to justify itself in fantasy/sci-fi moreso than if we were dealing with such a protagonist in their more conventional contexts. It's just not inherently compelling in the same way to see a character break some social or ethical code that also only exists because of the author, unless the author convinces us it has a reason to exist beyond antagonizing the protagonist.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:48
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Holy poo poo. That Beware of Chicken guy is making 13k a month on Patreon.
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Aug 31, 2022 01:42
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All of Joe Abercrombie is basically the same dilemma--bad people trying to be good with the hand they've been dealt, but being forced into darker and darker corners.
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Aug 31, 2022 01:56
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Holy poo poo. That Beware of Chicken guy is making 13k a month on Patreon. Slice of life is popular as gently caress lately lol. I guess all of our power fantasies have degenerated to 'man having a house would be awesome'
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Aug 31, 2022 02:32
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I would way rather read a story about a decent person in a lovely world (eg I love the Raymond Chandler books) than a lovely person making a lovely world shittier.
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Aug 31, 2022 02:50
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HopperUK posted:I would way rather read a story about a decent person in a lovely world (eg I love the Raymond Chandler books) than a lovely person making a lovely world shittier. Sometimes you get a story like this but then the author shits all over them to demonstrate the naivete of being a good person
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Aug 31, 2022 04:11
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Holy poo poo. That Beware of Chicken guy is making 13k a month on Patreon. Goon Selkie Myth is making p dece figgies as well, last I checked. Randidddly Ghosthound guy was doing even better at his peak. One could argue that spending a year as a Popular This Week RR darling is a bigger payday than a contract with one of the big 5(big 3 now?) Edit: Not that it’s anybodys business how much anybody makes. I just happened to be creeping on RR patreon pages recently navyjack fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 04:40
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It's all public basically, if there's a Patreon. I never understood the whole "keep your salary secret!" aspect of doing stuff for a living. poo poo, if I made 13k a month I'd be more than happy to do a breakdown of expenses/salary/takehome as soon as someone asked. Gotta know what the market pays before you can make a decision on if you want to bother with it. I don't know much about rr, or Patreon really, but it seems like more and more authors and creatives are using it as a supplement to their usual income if it isn't their primary income. It's kinda nice seeing people making money doing what they love (or are really good at). It's less about getting that big contract and having your books for sale in Walmart or something, and more just direct feedback from everyone on how much they dig your ideas/writing. Sorry, didn't mean to drag the thread off topic, was just amazed this dude is pulling in more than most book contracts I hear about every month via his fanbase.
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Aug 31, 2022 05:01
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It's no different than any other content mill driven by algorithms and trends. Don't start thinking, oh, people read this stuff and the author earns x? It must be easy. The things that get popular do so because they vibe with the tastes of the RR userbase and it's getting increasingly difficult and energy-intensive to break into the market. It used to be that updating 2-3 times a week was seen as optimal, then it was updating every day, now it's multiple times a day. On top of that, you need about fifty chapters of backlog to dole out to advance Patrons, etc. etc. But there's absolutely money in the RR -> Kindle pipeline. I'd say RR is a better site to use than any of those innumerable WebNovel.com sites or whatever, and it's not the stillborn Vella.
Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 07:14
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anilEhilated posted:My biggest problem with Thomas Covenant was how incredibly generic and boring all the fantasy elements were. rear end in a top hat savior is not necessarily a bad concept for a book, but there's zero fun in discovering the world and characters. Yeah, that's why I liked whichever one it was with the Sunbane corrupting the land the most, but then they all sailed away and it got meh again. I swear one of the greatest revelations of my life was realising that I didn't have to finish books/series that were boring/irritating/revolting me.
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Aug 31, 2022 07:37
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I stopped reading Thomas Covenant #1 because the copy I got from the library was just missing about 80 pages. Not torn out or anything, the pagecount and narrative just jumped. Honestly I wasn't getting much out of it, that lovely printer did me a favour.
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Aug 31, 2022 07:42
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Edit: Disregard, skipped a page.
genericnick fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 08:31
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Aug 31, 2022 08:40
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Runcible Cat posted:I swear one of the greatest revelations of my life was realising that I didn't have to finish books/series that were boring/irritating/revolting me. Yes. As a young impressionable teenager I read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and it taught me that same very valuable lesson, that starting a book does not obligate me to finish it. I did finish that one, but the lesson I took away from it has saved me so many hours in the years since then. So thanks for that, I guess, Ayn Rand.
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Aug 31, 2022 10:16
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Groke posted:Yes. As a young impressionable teenager I read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and it taught me that same very valuable lesson, that starting a book does not obligate me to finish it. I don't think I ever got around to reading it but was there any place in Atlas Shrugged where all those wealthy, brilliant 'men of the mind' sorted out who collected the trash, cleaned the sewers or did colonoscopies in Galt's Gulch?
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Aug 31, 2022 10:21
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Everyone posted:I don't think I ever got around to reading it but was there any place in Atlas Shrugged where all those wealthy, brilliant 'men of the mind' sorted out who collected the trash, cleaned the sewers or did colonoscopies in Galt's Gulch? They didn’t need to because by that point you know Rand will asspull whatever she needs to make her point. Further asspulls would be wasted words so of course she avoided them
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Aug 31, 2022 11:04
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I don't wanna get too kissassy here but a recentish thing that to me was genuinely dark and shocking and good in SF/F was the end of Baru 1, and I think it's because that darkness is interpersonal, they could be in our world and a similar story could play out and the word victory would still taste like grave dirt. Obviously there aren't 100% direct real world analogues to every single secondary world element but being asked to sacrifice everything for power is an experience that people in this world can understand even if they've never done the same, it's a people thing, people remain people wherever you put them. Personally, I think Baru 1 is phenomenal because it stands to usher in the newest, hottest meme in SF/F reader culture. What I like to call: Tainposting. Observe. Forgive me, General. posted:The Duchess Vultjag's fierce dark eyes traced the lines of her mask. No! Farrier thought as chaos struck the court. This can’t be happening! I’m in charge here! Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 11:10
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No, sister, they expect one of us in the ocean
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Aug 31, 2022 11:48
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DAILY TELEGRAPH Is Tain Culture Destroying Our Schools? Hu-se prices set to fall at highest ever rate
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Aug 31, 2022 13:22
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Aug 31, 2022 13:31
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HopperUK posted:I would way rather read a story about a decent person in a lovely world (eg I love the Raymond Chandler books) than a lovely person making a lovely world shittier. Like, if I want to read "bad person does bad things for bad reasons and makes everything worse for everyone" for a thousand pages I can just doomscroll google news.  SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I don't wanna get too kissassy here but a recentish thing that to me was genuinely dark and shocking and good in SF/F was the end of Baru 1, and I think it's because that darkness is interpersonal, they could be in our world and a similar story could play out and the word victory would still taste like grave dirt. Obviously there aren't 100% direct real world analogues to every single secondary world element but being asked to sacrifice everything for power is an experience that people in this world can understand even if they've never done the same, it's a people thing, people remain people wherever you put them.
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Aug 31, 2022 14:03
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Is it still a dreamlike experience in the book? It's one thing to think hell yeah, a dream, I can kill all of my enemies haha how do you like that losers??? And quite another when every shred of the actual sensation of killing a person who doesn't want to die is communicated to you in actual detail because it's real. No sympathetic person would enjoy that. It's the gulf between an action movie and a snuff film.
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Aug 31, 2022 14:57
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Please stop the Tainposting immediately, I don't have time to re-read Baru right now.
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Aug 31, 2022 15:25
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Strategic Tea posted:Is it still a dreamlike experience in the book? It's one thing to think hell yeah, a dream, I can kill all of my enemies haha how do you like that losers??? Nah, he just decides he must be dreaming and assaults the young girl who is nursing him. It describes her pain and fear as obvious to him. It loving sucks.
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Aug 31, 2022 15:37
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HopperUK posted:Nah, he just decides he must be dreaming and assaults the young girl who is nursing him. It describes her pain and fear as obvious to him. It loving sucks. It's been a while since I read it, but I think the thing that's almost worse than the rape is the way the rest of the Land just decides, "Well, you're new here and you are the Savior of the World, so we're gonna give you a mulligan on the whole violent sexual assault thing."
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Aug 31, 2022 15:53
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withak posted:Please stop the Tainposting immediately, I don't have time to re-read Baru right now. I read that as "Tainspotting" and instantly started to compose a Choose Life monologue.
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Aug 31, 2022 16:13
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Everyone posted:It's been a while since I read it, but I think the thing that's almost worse than the rape is the way the rest of the Land just decides, "Well, you're new here and you are the Savior of the World, so we're gonna give you a mulligan on the whole violent sexual assault thing." What I recall is that the girl's mom is, like, really super mad about it, but she has to accompany him on his quest and help him anyway. Even as a dumb teenage shithead in the 1980s I thought this was super hosed up and did not continue the series.
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Aug 31, 2022 16:54
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Every time I've seen someone decide to use sexual assault as a plot device in their fiction story, it seems to be from someone who does not adequately understand the severe implications of it, and it feels very insulting for folks who actually have to deal with and navigate the ramifications of sexual assault in their day to day lives. I think there is a huge responsibility in deploying it as a plot device and most writers seem to not respect that responsibility.
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Aug 31, 2022 18:50
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Keret posted:Every time I've seen someone decide to use sexual assault as a plot device in their fiction story, it seems to be from someone who does not adequately understand the severe implications of it, and it feels very insulting for folks who actually have to deal with and navigate the ramifications of sexual assault in their day to day lives. I think there is a huge responsibility in deploying it as a plot device and most writers seem to not respect that responsibility. Cherryh I would say is an exception to this. But for the most part, yeah.
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Aug 31, 2022 18:53
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I read a lengthy analysis of sexual violence in Donaldson's work (I have not read any of his work but I understand his Gap sequence is even more saturated with said violence). It argued that Donaldson is concerned with the effect of rape on the perpetrator, as an utterly destructive and dehumanizing choice which has unthinkable consequences on one's humanity. And while there might be something important to say there, I don't know, I'm sure choosing to do something so horrible is very bad for you, it strikes me as kind of the same as all these movies about how hard it is to be a drone pilot blowing up innocent Pakistanis, which is to say extremely 
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Aug 31, 2022 18:55
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Jenna Moran's new novel The Night-Bird's Feather is out September 22, and she says that if pre-orders and first-week sales are good enough to lift her out of her usual circle of readers, she's going to make the playtest draft of the fourth edition of Nobilis available to the public. If you're interested in either of those things, or if "Vita Nostra meets Studio Ghibli" sounds like it would appeal to you, consider pre-ordering maybe?Jenna Moran posted:Besides "some of my best," it's ... an epic fantasy with a veritable smoothie of other fantasy subgenres mixed in (and a dash of the literary, too), with a focus on the social construction of worth, the internal process of constructing experience, the weight of accumulated preconceptions of the self, and dysmorphia. Lately I've been calling it Vita Nostra meets Spirited Away. ^_^ In the meantime I have to finish putting all the page numbers into the ePub before that day comes.
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Aug 31, 2022 19:56
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As someone who read the Gap Cycle but not the Thomas Covenant books, that doesn't really ring true to me. Angus is already a monster before he rapes Morn, and him doing so doesn't really have any corrupting effect on him. As someone who's not particularly triggered or bothered by sexual assault in fiction, the whole series handling of Angus seemed rather careless.
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Aug 31, 2022 20:03
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Patrick Spens posted:As someone who read the Gap Cycle but not the Thomas Covenant books, that doesn't really ring true to me. Angus is already a monster before he rapes Morn, and him doing so doesn't really have any corrupting effect on him. As someone who's not particularly triggered or bothered by sexual assault in fiction, the whole series handling of Angus seemed rather careless. Yeah. In covenant it's a horrible thing he does, it fucks up the family, it has catastrophic consequences, he suffers for it, it's a whole thing. The Gap one is "then he did a whole bunch of raping, then he did some other stuff, then he got turned into an immortal super cyborg." The Gap went rather weird towards the end
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Aug 31, 2022 20:19
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