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Robot Style posted:Speaking of 2010's movie clichés, it's pretty astonishing that the new corporate Star Wars was able to resist doing the hacky "blue beam shoots into the sky" thing for so long, but also feels somehow appropriate that Rise of Skywalker was the movie where it finally happened. predictive programming for project blue beam 
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Sep 1, 2022 23:00
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IN THE WRONG ASPECT RATIO
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Sep 2, 2022 01:46
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How can you crop Deakins like that?
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Sep 2, 2022 02:38
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No Mods No Masters posted:I mean the ship of yoda being actually wise or giving good advice definitely sailed with the prequels, if you don't think it had sailed by the end of the OT. Rian tries to have it both ways, leaning on OT nostalgia for wise yoda to push the theme while also having the PT assertion that yoda is definitely a moron in his pocket in case of pushback Yoda giving bad or textbook advice that's not enough in the PT makes sense as the Jedi Order had become stilted, I feel like OT Yoda shows growth but is still too "big-picture" (in the way that he tells Luke to abandon his friends, or focuses on defeating the Emperor at all costs). I don't think I'd classify him as not wise/bad advice. He clearly is still pretty good at training Luke.
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Sep 2, 2022 17:41
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What was Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan exactly? Luke would deathmatch Vader then deathmatch the Emperor? Win the lightsaber fights Yoda and Obi-Wan lost (or failed to conclude) back in ROTS?
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Sep 2, 2022 18:32
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The plan was that he would assassinate the Emperor, yeah.
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Sep 2, 2022 18:37
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I think there's at least an argument that they regarded luke as basically a disposable weapon, especially if you don't want to consider their advice straight up dumb. If he killed one or both of vader and the emperor that would be great, if he just died in the attempt that would also be fine. They say pretty straight up leia was the next play if that didn't pan out
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Sep 2, 2022 18:38
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General Battuta posted:What was Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan exactly? Luke would deathmatch Vader then deathmatch the Emperor? Win the lightsaber fights Yoda and Obi-Wan lost (or failed to conclude) back in ROTS? Yep, even my son was confused about the actual plan. But there’s no way to explain it that doesn’t make it sound like they’re just training someone to suicide bomb someone. It’s great. No Mods No Masters posted:I think there's at least an argument that they regarded luke as basically a disposable weapon, especially if you don't want to consider their advice straight up dumb. If he killed one or both of vader and the emperor that would be great, if he just died in the attempt that would also be fine. They say pretty straight up leia was the next play if that didn't pan out Yoda at least did. Yoda is the one who tells Obi that Luke isn’t their last hope.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:09
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I mean “train the son of the guy who would have been the most powerful force user ever” into a champion isn’t exactly a terrible plan. In fact it’s exactly what Palpatine is most afraid of “He could destroy us” “The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi”. There’s nothing to imply they ever viewed Luke as disposable. If anything their plan only didn’t work because they didn’t get to actually train him. He got what, a month?, of training under Yoda before he aborted and by the time he came back Yoda was too dead to train him.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:47
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if Yoda had laid off the ketamine he’d have trained Luke better and this would’ve all gone much more smoothly.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:31
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They drastically underestimated Luke's ability to figure things out for himself, basically, and that he didn't need to have been indoctrinated the way they were. The Jedi fear worldliness for its attachments and temptations to the point where they lost the ability to deal with it, while the Sith embraced it.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:35
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I think in Jedi Yoda realized Luke figured out to get Anakin powerful on his own so he just decided to die.
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Sep 3, 2022 15:04
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It's worth noting that Yoda never explicitly tells Luke that he has to kill Vader or the Emperor, that's all on Obi-Wan. Yoda seems to be focused on training Luke to become a proper Jedi, culminating in confronting Vader to complete his training. His approach seems to have more faith in things sorting themselves out if Luke is capable of doing that.
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Sep 3, 2022 20:21
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Yea it’s not like Obi and Yoda are just salivating at the thought of murder. The literal last scene of the movie is them endorsing Luke’s way of doing things. And it’s not like Palpatine didn’t need to be thrown into a reactor.
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Sep 3, 2022 22:08
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YaketySass posted:It's worth noting that Yoda never explicitly tells Luke that he has to kill Vader or the Emperor, that's all on Obi-Wan. Yoda seems to be focused on training Luke to become a proper Jedi, culminating in confronting Vader to complete his training. His approach seems to have more faith in things sorting themselves out if Luke is capable of doing that. See also, the Cave and Yoda's disappointment at Luke's decision to just take his lightsaber with him and decapitate old Vader. If killing Vader and the Emperor was the mission, Yoda would have applauded that lesson.
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Sep 3, 2022 22:12
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I generally thought the lesson and thought was more “stop him without fear or hatred” whether that meant killing him with a  or befriending them was up to interpretation.
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Sep 3, 2022 22:47
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Darth TNT posted:I generally thought the lesson and thought was more “stop him without fear or hatred” whether that meant killing him with a Yoda seems disappointed the moment Luke takes his weapon into the cave. Of course that was all metaphorical, "You face what you bring along" and all that, but it still doesn't add up if he wanted Luke to battle Vader at all in the near future. I know he states his plan B to Obi Wan, but I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda had been perfectly happy to train Luke in all the ways of the Jedi and then just keep him indefinitely on Dagobah as a fellow hermit.
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Sep 3, 2022 22:56
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Yoda wanted Luke to become a Jedi, and he believed that killing Darth Sidious would be a really Jedi thing to do.
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Sep 4, 2022 00:59
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Bongo Bill posted:Yoda wanted Luke to become a Jedi, and he believed that killing Darth Sidious would be a really Jedi thing to do. I see the slang's changed from "wizard" to "Jedi" in the 25 years since the Empire came to power
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Sep 4, 2022 03:25
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I mean, the fairly obvious subtext is Yoda is afraid of Luke ending up like Anakin or worse, and that the relationship between him and Vader wouldn't help there. There are so many ways things could go wrong, as they have. Of course, the whole part with the tree is specifically telling Luke that he can very easily become the monster he set out to fight even if he wins. While Obi-Wan dismisses blasters as crude weapons, Yoda tries to make the point that in a spiritual battle, any weapon at all can be a clumsy and random liability, and that Luke carrying a laser sword doesn't make him a Jedi. Luke's thinking like a soldier, and while that's entirely fair considering he's acting in that capacity, a Jedi needs to be more than that. And of course the prequels demonstrate that graphically, where the Jedi being used as soldiers is literally a key part of the successful plan to wipe them out.
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Sep 4, 2022 06:44
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Unrelated mostly, but comes to mind I've said that every single depiction of Sith apprenticeship is shown as a deeply abusive relationship. Vader throwing Palpatine down the reactor shaft at seeing him about to kill Luke, at the cost of his own life, is about as clear an attempt to end the cycle of abuse as it can be.
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Sep 5, 2022 12:43
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Unrelated mostly, but comes to mind I've said that every single depiction of Sith apprenticeship is shown as a deeply abusive relationship. That's pretty much how every apprenticeship is depicted, to a greater or lesser extent.
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Sep 5, 2022 14:16
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Unrelated mostly, but comes to mind I've said that every single depiction of Sith apprenticeship is shown as a deeply abusive relationship. Vader throwing Palpatine down the reactor shaft at seeing him about to kill Luke, at the cost of his own life, is about as clear an attempt to end the cycle of abuse as it can be. Oh, so now Cinema Discusso is willing to see cycles of violence ended.
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Sep 5, 2022 19:06
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josh04 posted:Oh, so now Cinema Discusso is willing to see cycles of violence ended. I was trying to explain the Baron Bifford saga to my wife and I ended up wondering how he's doing.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:13
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We started TFA. Saw the first hour. Man that first hour is pretty solid. It’s fast, it’s pretty brutal with the first order. Finn is brilliant. Rey is kinda fun, Rey and Finn together are great. Han Solo shows up to Han Solo this movie up. Poe dies. Good times to be had. You know that opening crawl hurts to read now. quote:Luke Skywalker has vanished. quote:With the support of the REPUBLIC, Why is the Republic not resisting itself?  And that last line leads into:  "The old guy at the beginning looks like Obi Wan! But Obi Wan is "deceased", so who is this?""We don't know." "But he was familiar according to the opening?"  "Yes. Poe knows him, we don't." "Oh, BB8 talks the same way as Artoo." He was oddly level when he said that. Whether that was because he was focused on the movie or if he expected to be surprised I don't know. But he did love the little thumbs up with Finn.  I actually really like BB8 in the same way I like Kylo. While clearly cut from the same cloth, he just feels different enough (and not just from shape) that I'm fine with him. Anyway Finn not attacking during the opening made him wonder if he was an undercover agent or spy. Later on he got the child soldier part from Finn, but didn’t really respond to it. I think he would’ve preferred the spy angle. He was however wondering why Finn was constantly panting loudly during pretty much all his first scenes.  He gave no shits about Poe disappearing. Though this morning he came to me and asked why Poe has so much merchandising for a guy who dies in the "7th scene". (  I'm ruining him if he's already thinking about scenes)So I think he's sceptical about his actual status. I just tried to play up the cool parts in the beginning, maybe I should've pointed out he also plays a role in a cartoon. Just trying to keep the surprise alive for him. Kylo made a strong impression, especially his temper tantrum. I liked that as well, partially because it sets him apart from Vader while still clearly inspired by him. He loved Han Solo and his attempts at negotiating with the pirates, "classic Solo". I'm surprised he didn't give much of a response to the reveal that Kylo is the son of Han and Leia. After some questions from me, the most response I got from him was. "Where is Leia anyway?" "You know dad, it's pretty funny how a BB unit doesn't look anything like a BD unit." It actually took me a little time to parse this sentence. "How do you even know what a BD unit looks like?" [insert toy catalogue] One thing that stood out to me. Poe describes BB8 to Finn as a BB unit, white and orange and one of a kind. Did the one of a kind refer to his personality or his color? Because everyone immediately recognizes BB8 as a BB unit. So he's clearly not that much one of a kind. My son also asked why Jedi don't just go through battle mind tricking everyone or pulling swords from the opponents hands. The former led to a fun discussion about Boss Nass. "You need something for a successful mindtrick." "Oh right, if the enemy is a force user it doesn't work." "Well, also probably. But you also needed someone to be weak minded." "Like the fat Gungan from PM!" At which point I remembered the discussion we briefly had here, so I wondered what he would think of it. "Was he mind tricked though?" "Yes, he gave them a boat and let them go and he gave them Jar Jar." "Where did he send them and what was going to happen to Jar Jar if he hadn't been sent with them." "Into a tunnel and Jar Jar was going to be executed." "What was the tunnel filled with." "Huge monsters." [silence as I wait for the realization to hit him] "Wait, wasn't Boss Nass mind tricked? They barely survived." "I don't know. That's a fun thing to think about isn't it? Maybe he realized what they tried to do and just played along because this was easier. Have you thought about what would've happened otherwise?" And then we had a bunch of discussions on alternate scenarios if Qui Gon and Obi Wan died or didn't get a sub or didn't get Jar Jar. The latter didn't change much actually. No idea when we'll get to part 2.
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Sep 6, 2022 10:32
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Schwarzwald posted:That's pretty much how every apprenticeship is depicted, to a greater or lesser extent. Pretty much, but with the Sith it's like, extremely overt. Pretty much everything about Savage Oppress comes to mind.
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Sep 6, 2022 14:10
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Darth TNT posted:And then we had a bunch of discussions on alternate scenarios if Qui Gon and Obi Wan died or didn't get a sub or didn't get Jar Jar. The latter didn't change much actually. If they don't get Jar Jar, Padme can't make friendly contact with the Gungans for help and Federation army all present and able to respond to the Naboo party infiltrating the city. Jar Jar is a nice person who does what he can to help out his friends by connecting people and helping them solve their problems. Just like he did for friendly old Sheev in Episode 2.
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Sep 6, 2022 18:45
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Yeah, Jar Jar and Anakin are part of Lucas' ongoing motif of "the seemingly lowest and most useless beings are actually the most important". Lowly droids carrying secret plans, desert hermits turning out to be powerful wizards, that kind of thing. Padme cleverly seems to know this is how the universe operates, so disguises herself as low-status people in order to give herself plot armor (the only movie where she doesn't do this is the one she finally dies in). Obi-Wan and Yoda seem to figure this out as well, taking on low status at the end of the prequels in order to survive. That might even be the reason they favored Luke over Leia. Leia's status as a princess means that she's going to be less narratively powerful than simple farmboy Luke.
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Sep 6, 2022 19:15
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Robot Style posted:Padme cleverly seems to know this is how the universe operates, so disguises herself as low-status people in order to give herself plot armor (the only movie where she doesn't do this is the one she finally dies in). She was transferring her plot armor to Luke and Leia, who then passed it on to Rey and Poe respectively
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Sep 6, 2022 19:23
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Now I'm thinking about Poe telling his parents he wants to be a fighter pilot when he grows up, and them sending him off to join a spice smuggling gang for a few years to build up his plot armor.
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Sep 6, 2022 19:28
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If you're min maxxing its really worth dipping into the Peasant class forr a few levels to pick up the Greater Plot Armour feat, it's not flashy but it'll save your arse any number of times when poo poo hits the fan
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Sep 6, 2022 19:32
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Robot Style posted:Yeah, Jar Jar and Anakin are part of Lucas' ongoing motif of "the seemingly lowest and most useless beings are actually the most important". Lowly droids carrying secret plans, desert hermits turning out to be powerful wizards, that kind of thing. I mean kinda the point here in universe is that in a galaxy that runs on power and rank, where men in uniforms command armies and mighty weapons to make entire worlds bow to their will, the lowly and common are easily ignored where the prominent and powerful are obvious targets. Obscurity is the safest place to hide from the cruel eye of a ham-fisted empire, being hermits in isolation in brutal wilderness, nameless peasants in a vast backwater, or mass-produced and interchangeable tools. Also, y'know, it's classic underdog story logic. The story of a peasant boy becoming the hero of the galaxy and overthrowing the evil Emperor is a lot more interesting (to most) than an already powerful and privileged person retaining their power and privilege. The Empire is brought low by its hubris and cruelty, assuming the weak have no recourse.
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Sep 7, 2022 07:00
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I kind of love how the Star Wars universe fisheyes into itself with obscurity being such a focus point. Everything that becomes legend or important, aka it's true all of it han to rei, is us viewers following the 'real story' while also buying in to the belief that the in-universe normies think it's elsewhere. Nobody normie in the star Wars universe gives a poo poo about backwater tattoine but we see it as super important because it is. Fine, well and good but cool obscurity doesnt get to be cool obscurity when the characters are buzzing out about hunk of junks and bland dead desert planets. I'd love to see a star Wars film where everything coded as broken, obscure and off to the side is actually just that, and maybe even bad and evil and prominent is the new obscurity and therefore the new obscurity. Oh wait George Lucas did that in '99-'05 because he rules and the prequels rule.
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Sep 7, 2022 14:10
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No Dignity posted:If you're min maxxing its really worth dipping into the Peasant class forr a few levels to pick up the Greater Plot Armour feat, it's not flashy but it'll save your arse any number of times when poo poo hits the fan I think this was a legitimate build strategy in Warhammer Fantasy RPG 
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Sep 7, 2022 16:53
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Robot Style posted:Yeah, Jar Jar and Anakin are part of Lucas' ongoing motif of "the seemingly lowest and most useless beings are actually the most important". Lowly droids carrying secret plans, desert hermits turning out to be powerful wizards, that kind of thing. Well, Star Wars has some Lord of the Rings DNA which has Catholic DNA and also Aurthrian DNA. The commonalities there are that humility and simplicity are marks of good while grandiosity and ostentatious displays of power are evil. The simple people - the meek - unite and rise up to defeat ultimate evil and inherit the Earth. Luke even gives up, potentially sacrificing himself, in order to win and his already corrupt father does one last evil act - murder - in order to defeat evil and redeem himself and save his son. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are both essentially Christian morality tales. They aren't only that but they are that. It's just that the force that governs the universe - the force in Star Wars and Eru in LotR - are overtly and obviously existant and have a will and their will is simple, humble people get a measure of protection. Note how the Jedi get smoked at the height of their arrogance and power. Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 08:36
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Noam Chomsky posted:The commonalities there are that humility and simplicity are marks of good while grandiosity and ostentatious displays of power are evil. Yoda even spells it out for Luke during ESB
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Sep 8, 2022 09:09
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Darth TNT posted:Yoda even spells it out for Luke during ESB Always in the text it is.
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Sep 8, 2022 09:13
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As much as they should just leave the movies alone, now that Hayden Christensen is actually the age Vader was in the Original Trilogy, I definitely wouldn't mind if they replaced the weird costume test Anakin ghost in Return of the Jedi with new footage. Keep Sebastian Shaw for the unmasking, but something like this this nails the look of "Luke's dad as a mature Jedi Knight".
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Sep 8, 2022 21:24
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Robot Style posted:As much as they should just leave the movies alone, now that Hayden Christensen is actually the age Vader was in the Original Trilogy, I definitely wouldn't mind if they replaced the weird costume test Anakin ghost in Return of the Jedi with new footage. Well, let's be real - they're just going to remake the movies once Lucas dies. So, you'll probably just get Hayden as Vader.
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Sep 8, 2022 23:52
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Noam Chomsky posted:Well, let's be real - they're just going to remake the movies once Lucas dies. So, you'll probably just get Hayden as Vader. Why would George Lucas being alive or dead be an issue for Disney in that regard?
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Sep 8, 2022 23:55
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