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KVeezy3 posted:I'm asking if it's a unilaterally good thing, regardless of how big or small the effect is. I think it's a fool's game to go around calling pretty much anything 'unilaterally good or bad' short of, like...basic concepts like agreeing that a rando baby being shot is probably indeed bad (and even then some one's gonna run in to say 'ah but what of baby hitler???' or something). Like, is the mere concept of 'diversity' in media good? Sure, yea. But near every actual implementation of that involves working with, rewarding, and profiting, white supremacist power structures, so now we have to navel gaze all day about if Disney backing the 'don't say gay' poo poo right until it became public and got people mad at them is able to be outweighed by them having queer characters that reach larger audiences than Florida or whatever you want to jerk off about rather than engaging the posts actually being made.
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Oct 7, 2022 02:48
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Dumpmaster General posted:I think it's a fool's game to go around calling pretty much anything 'unilaterally good or bad' short of, like...basic concepts like agreeing that a rando baby being shot is probably indeed bad (and even then some one's gonna run in to say 'ah but what of baby hitler???' or something). Yeah this isn't a subject that you can reset to a broad general thesis, there's tons of nuance. That's why a ton of replies are strawmen or simplifications.
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Oct 7, 2022 02:57
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Open Source Idiom posted:I've never understood this argument. It's not like everyone suddenly stopped being poo poo to women when other minorities emerged in the public consciousness. Instead bigots found new, additional, targets for their ire. *I know there are some blurry edges, but at a societal level it holds. Open Source Idiom posted:That, and systems of oppression are invested in maintaining themselves; they might elevate some subaltern groups out of necessity (like the way women were given power thanks, in part, to WW2 reducing the male workforce) but they've been trying to stuff that genie back in the bottle ever since, and to some success if we consider e.g. abortion rights in the US.
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Oct 7, 2022 06:00
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socialsecurity posted:You need to see Black Sails it's peak pirates being pirates. Thanks for the rec somehow I totally missed that this even existed!
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Oct 7, 2022 07:05
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I see this comparison get brought up a lot. Manga is good because it "focuses on the story" vs American comics that are all about "virtue signaling" https://twitter.com/GundamIsHere/status/1578284275526688768?t=JogQEWFIEf7hQ4HIhaB6qQ&s=19
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Oct 7, 2022 13:21
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Panfilo posted:I see this comparison get brought up a lot. Manga is good because it "focuses on the story" vs American comics that are all about "virtue signaling" I mean, yea and a bunch of dudes wrote dogshit like the various '(x) Movie' movies and Thor 2, it feels like this is a dumb alley to go down even for these guys if we're going to pretend 'ah hah but women wrote a show I don't like' means anything.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:54
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Famously non-political Full Metal Alchemist
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Oct 7, 2022 13:59
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They're trying to deny that their criticism of She-Hulk's writing is due to sexism. A Japanese woman wrote Full Metal Alchemist and it is good, so obviously this comes down to SJW westerners and not the gender of the writers themselves. I see this come up in various iterations-Japanese comics are better than American comics because they don't cater to the woke mob and the sales figures reflect that strategy. It comes back to the issue of authenticity I mentioned. They think western content is inauthentic because they are just using the medium as a sounding board for their leftist opinions, compared to other sources of media that get seen as more "pure" by focusing on the story itself. This also helps them ignore the possibility that things like sexism, racism, class struggle, etc are not big concerns expressed by artists and writers in other cultures, and it is the sole domain of Concerned White Women.
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Oct 7, 2022 14:43
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Panfilo posted:They're trying to deny that their criticism of She-Hulk's writing is due to sexism. A Japanese woman wrote Full Metal Alchemist and it is good, so obviously this comes down to SJW westerners and not the gender of the writers themselves. It's hard to argue with the authenticity allegation when viewing something like She-Hulk (which I fell off, but found entertaining) which is one of the first pieces of content I've seen to deliberately insert itself into "the discussion", in way that comes across as a bit cynical. It's really hard to read as sincere when the show deliberately engineers Twitter moments. To pick a movie off the top of my head, something like Promising Young Woman is an explicitly feminist movie, but generated no chud discussion that I'm aware of. Get Out was hugely critically and commercially successful and is considered a modern horror classic by many, but I've seen little backlash against it despite it being explicitly about race (although this may be partially because the the film spears liberals quite astutely). I wonder if part of what makes a movie "woke" in the negative sense for conservatives (and perhaps frequently in a different sense for leftists) is a sense of infringement on ground that they've staked out. They seem fine with stories about marginalised people as long as they stay stories *for* marginised people. I guess what I'm saying is just a rambling extrapolation from the tired "keep politics out of my entertainment" argument.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:33
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The "voted for Obama" line in Get Out saved it from that crowd getting mad at it. They don't understand subtext at all, so that line made them realize the part about outward liberals being criticized without getting everything else. The Boys was similar in being safe from them because it obviously made fun of liberals too, so they just made Homelander directly quote Trump and constantly get clowned just to get them off that bandwagon.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:50
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Dumpmaster General posted:I think it's a fool's game to go around calling pretty much anything 'unilaterally good or bad' short of, like...basic concepts like agreeing that a rando baby being shot is probably indeed bad (and even then some one's gonna run in to say 'ah but what of baby hitler???' or something). What I’m addressing is this a priori notion of diversity in media being good, in no small part due to the ideologically loaded term of diversity. Like all of us in this thread know that race isn’t an essential category, but nevertheless discussion is being had as if it is. Jaxyon posted:... So while The Northman is admittedly not the worst white supremacist film, what supersedes overall is its whiteness that stains the scale of justice at large. Presupposed in this are specific ideological conceptions of media & racial justice, which this excerpt from Adolph Reed Jr’s attempts to untangle in his parallel critique of The Help and Django Unchained: quote:… https://nonsite.org/django-unchained-or-the-help-how-cultural-politics-is-worse-than-no-politics-at-all-and-why/
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Oct 7, 2022 20:55
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KVeezy3 posted:So while The Northman is admittedly not the worst white supremacist film, what supersedes overall is its whiteness that stains the scale of justice at large. That's an argument you could make I guess, but not the one I'm making. Both Django and the Help have huge problems but in different ways. However both are a ostensibly black stories shown within the boundaries of whiteness by white creators for a white audience.
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Oct 7, 2022 21:24
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Disco Pope posted:It's hard to argue with the authenticity allegation when viewing something like She-Hulk (which I fell off, but found entertaining) which is one of the first pieces of content I've seen to deliberately insert itself into "the discussion", in way that comes across as a bit cynical. It's really hard to read as sincere when the show deliberately engineers Twitter moments. She Hulk is reacting to the discussion that was already there. The show was accused of creating controversy and making up twitter reactions in an episode where it showed a website full of angry incel men, but as it turns out they literally just copy-pasted real reactions from when the show was announced. If anything, the show underplays the level of vitriol in the discussion. You can't deliberately insert yourself into a discussion you were already in the middle of. quote:To pick a movie off the top of my head, something like Promising Young Woman is an explicitly feminist movie, but generated no chud discussion that I'm aware of. Get Out was hugely critically and commercially successful and is considered a modern horror classic by many, but I've seen little backlash against it despite it being explicitly about race (although this may be partially because the the film spears liberals quite astutely). Promising Young Woman was not the massive cultural phenomenon that Get Out was. Part of a major chud blowback is often media presense. Get out is making fun of liberal racists, and chuds already claim that liberals are the real(and only) racists, so what would they complain about? Subtlety is lost on fascists. quote:I wonder if part of what makes a movie "woke" in the negative sense for conservatives (and perhaps frequently in a different sense for leftists) is a sense of infringement on ground that they've staked out. They seem fine with stories about marginalised people as long as they stay stories *for* marginised people. I guess what I'm saying is just a rambling extrapolation from the tired "keep politics out of my entertainment" argument. They don't care about movies about marginalized people unless it gets popular, then they can use it to complain about their bigot grievances while claiming it's an artistic complaint, in a way they can't be just saying "I don't like blacks/gays/women/whatever". Hence the complain about Lizzo playing a slaver's flute is almost entirely contained in discussions of musicality, classiness, clothing, etc. Never explicitly said that they hate women, fat women, and fat black women.
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Oct 7, 2022 21:34
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KVeezy3 posted:What I’m addressing is this a priori notion of diversity in media being good, in no small part due to the ideologically loaded term of diversity. Like all of us in this thread know that race isn’t an essential category, but nevertheless discussion is being had as if it is. I mean at the very least there is a question of equal opportunity. Black actors deserve as many fair chances at roles as white actors and historically that's not been the case, and you'll hear people say "cast whoever's best for the part!" but unconscious bias is still a thing. So I'd say diversity in casting/hiring is a worthy goal in the simple sense that people who aren't white get jobs.
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Oct 7, 2022 23:10
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Was there much right-wing backlash when Fury Road came out? Fury Road has all the hallmarks of a movie that would be called "woke" by the right: the main character taking a backseat (quite literally) to a strong female character, men mostly being portrayed in a negative light (with exceptions) and women being seen more favourably, and so on. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing some backlash against it, but there wasn't such a huge outcry. Was it simply because when it came out it was liked by audiences and received critical acclaim?
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Oct 7, 2022 23:42
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Minor issues. Some people hated how feminist it was but it was such a great movie I think they just got drowned out.
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Oct 8, 2022 00:45
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Tekopo posted:Was there much right-wing backlash when Fury Road came out? Fury Road has all the hallmarks of a movie that would be called "woke" by the right: the main character taking a backseat (quite literally) to a strong female character, men mostly being portrayed in a negative light (with exceptions) and women being seen more favourably, and so on. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing some backlash against it, but there wasn't such a huge outcry. Was it simply because when it came out it was liked by audiences and received critical acclaim? There was quite a lot of complaints about it pushing woke ideology and bait and switching the leads. I've seen several video essays that touch on that backlash. Theres 2 things going on......one that's got a lot of toxic masculinity still in the war boys and so that tempers it, but also these outcrys fade with time as the chuds move onto the next outrage.
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Oct 8, 2022 00:58
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Tekopo posted:Was there much right-wing backlash when Fury Road came out? Fury Road has all the hallmarks of a movie that would be called "woke" by the right: the main character taking a backseat (quite literally) to a strong female character, men mostly being portrayed in a negative light (with exceptions) and women being seen more favourably, and so on. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing some backlash against it, but there wasn't such a huge outcry. Was it simply because when it came out it was liked by audiences and received critical acclaim? When a movie is good, it doesn't catch on. I said this a million times in this thread, but they aren't really watching things, they just chose a "side" and are looking for ways to "win." Railing against a movie everyone likes makes nobody agree with them and make fun of them. A losing movie, they can pile on. Watch the pattern and you'll see it every time - they start disappearing once everyone starts liking something. Maxwell Lord posted:I mean at the very least there is a question of equal opportunity. Black actors deserve as many fair chances at roles as white actors and historically that's not been the case, and you'll hear people say "cast whoever's best for the part!" but unconscious bias is still a thing. So I'd say diversity in casting/hiring is a worthy goal in the simple sense that people who aren't white get jobs. This is kind of the weird split. When I did acting stuff, I hated that I could only get cast in security, cops, thugs, drug dealers, etc. But I'd still take it. Being token Empire officer would be amazing in comparison, but I have other issues with that ideologically.
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Oct 8, 2022 01:51
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There absolutely was an attempt to push a culture war storm with Fury Road which turned out to be a literal no-name blog that no one reads pushed as massive right-wing backlash.
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Oct 8, 2022 02:08
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Jaxyon posted:That's an argument you could make I guess, but not the one I'm making. Okay, but wasn't your earlier concern with The Northman that Robert Eggers could have instead made a film about [insert POC group]? Regardless, you haven't addressed the substance of Reed Jr's critique, which extends to black filmmakers. Maxwell Lord posted:I mean at the very least there is a question of equal opportunity. Black actors deserve as many fair chances at roles as white actors and historically that's not been the case, and you'll hear people say "cast whoever's best for the part!" but unconscious bias is still a thing. So I'd say diversity in casting/hiring is a worthy goal in the simple sense that people who aren't white get jobs. Sure, but you're talking about the job opportunities of individual black actors which is a large divide from declaring The Northman a white supremacist film.
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Oct 8, 2022 02:22
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The whole idea that if you're not strictly following a diversity checklist then you might as well be remaking Triumph of the Will is the kind of poo poo the strawman mockeries of liberals do. And also the idea that you need to somehow make sure a movie can't be something fascists like or else it will embolden them is completely idiotic, and only partly because it's completely pointless when fascists are both stupid and constantly acting in bad faith.
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Oct 8, 2022 05:22
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KVeezy3 posted:Okay, but wasn't your earlier concern with The Northman that Robert Eggers could have instead made a film about [insert POC group]? Regardless, you haven't addressed the substance of Reed Jr's critique, which extends to black filmmakers. They could have. They could also have made a film about POC that was created by POC. There's always room for improvement. Ghost Leviathan posted:The whole idea that if you're not strictly following a diversity checklist then you might as well be remaking Triumph of the Will is the kind of poo poo the strawman mockeries of liberals do. Is someone in this thread pushing that idea? quote:And also the idea that you need to somehow make sure a movie can't be something fascists like or else it will embolden them is completely idiotic, and only partly because it's completely pointless when fascists are both stupid and constantly acting in bad faith. Or that one?
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Oct 9, 2022 09:06
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How could the white creator of the Northman instead have made a movie created by people of color?
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Oct 9, 2022 10:38
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Some of what's discussed above and thoughts I've been unpacking make me wonder if the accusation of a film being woke (as a negative) is in a large part aesthetic. And this is maybe a bias of my own, but "woke cinema" makes me think of a pastel coloured, cosmopolitan Obama era aesthetic. Its slightly twee and slightly self-satisfied. I saw Amsterdam yesterday. It wasn't a particularly good film, but a lot of that feels like it would be considered "woke" if it was shot differently.
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Oct 9, 2022 13:14
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Post/edit error
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Oct 9, 2022 13:16
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I think a lot of the conversation sort of mirrors how people try to write off the underlying critique of the Bechdel Test. Yes, it is possible to have great films without the presence a woman character, but (1) a great film without women still exists within broader trends of the stories of men being valued and elevated over that of women. (2) we once again don't have to categorize films as being one thing. You can and should engage with films with various lenses and you can see great value in a film while also seeing its lack of female characters and people of color and engage with the film from that standpoint. The Northman is not inherently bad or even inherently racist for only having white characters in the same way that 12 Angry Men is not inherently sexist for not having women. But what I do find troubling is that folks kinda lost the thread of where this discussion started. The original response Jaxyon was making was to a poster who was implying it was ridiculous for people to not want to see The Northman because of its all white cast. And I think that idea is silly. Going back to the Bechdel Test, the criticism is not necessarily about a singular film, but a criticism of what stories we choose to elevate. Mass media and capital are the core modern tools for how stories are elevated, but why should an individual not have the right to choose to focus on stories about POC or stories that better represent people. As of 2016, women who make up the majority of Americans only received a third of the speaking parts and less than third went to non-white actors despite making up over 40% of the population. While things might be improving, there is clearly a problem with representation. Having diverse casts does not inherently make something antiracist just like passing the Bechdel Test does not mean that your work is feminist. But that also doesn't mean that representation is useless as a tool to fight oppression just that the fight is much more complex than that to ever believe there is a singular silver bullet.
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Oct 9, 2022 14:53
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Yeah, the Bechdel Test isn’t even a statement about film. It’s a tool to get people thinking about the culture they live in and the assumptions it makes. It’s possible to read films as texts and it’s possible to see them as cultural artifacts and commodities that circulate within a capitalist system. Interesting arguments are possible in both ways of reading, but it’s good to keep them separate in your understanding.
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Oct 9, 2022 15:03
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I AM GRANDO posted:Yeah, the Bechdel Test isn’t even a statement about film. It’s a tool to get people thinking about the culture they live in and the assumptions it makes. It’s possible to read films as texts and it’s possible to see them as cultural artifacts and commodities that circulate within a capitalist system. Interesting arguments are possible in both ways of reading, but it’s good to keep them separate in your understanding.
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Oct 9, 2022 15:42
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Bechdel Test isn't even that good as an indicator. Just reading up on it on the wiki, and its noted that 50% of films who pass it have the women talking about marriage or babies.
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Oct 9, 2022 15:56
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think where I disagree with you is the idea that a film as a cultural artifact is not the same thing as reading a film as a text because reading and our ability to draw inferences is inherently tied to background knowledge, context, and culture. A good example is the monologue in The Night of the Living Dead in which the film's hero, a Black man, talks about being surrounded by zombie hordes. Using cultural context the scene is a metaphor for the experiences of a Black man in American society. Without the cultural context of white supremacy, the scene might only have its literal meaning that he was surrounded by zombies and it was scary. But applying cultural context isn't in opposition to reading the film as a text, it's simply literacy. I guess I’m thinking of something more along the lines of arguing that Night of the Living Dead has only one black character, or that the only black person involved in the production was Duane Jones (I don’t know that this was the case—it’s just a hypothetical for the kind of case I’m thinking of), or about some other historical claim about horror films of the era. I’d classify everything in your post as a reading of the text, which I agree can use historical context or many other theoretical perspectives that care about culture, identity, history, etc to produce an argument. One isn’t interested in reading the film at all, while another is. I guess what I notice in some of the posts in this thread is an argument about culture or history that proceeds independently of whatever the text of a film is. Like, you can argue that 12 Angry Men doesn’t have any black actors in it as a claim specifically about America, and you can argue that 12 Angry Men continually elides or ignores the question of sexual difference, or that it takes as given that rationality and masculinity are identical (again, these are just kinds of readings—I don’t know if they actually work). One treats the film as an object and is equally strong or weak regardless of the text of the film, while the other makes an argument from the text of the film, or uses the text of the film to make a reading. They can certainly coexist in the same argument, but don’t have to.
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Oct 9, 2022 16:24
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Panfilo posted:This also helps them ignore the possibility that things like sexism, racism, class struggle, etc are not big concerns expressed by artists and writers in other cultures, and it is the sole domain of Concerned White Women. Yeah, there are all kinds of older/foreign films and books that have been controversial, offensive, banned and deemed criminal at release. But if modern US audiences watched or read them they'd be put to sleep or find much ado about nothing. Ivan the Terrible Part III was confiscated and destroyed. So all kinds of things get lost in translation and time. Ignorance becomes bliss/boredom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_films https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_banned_in_the_United_States Disco Pope posted:They seem fine with stories about marginalised people as long as they stay stories *for* marginised people. I guess what I'm saying is just a rambling extrapolation from the tired "keep politics out of my entertainment" argument. Yes, if the film has an obvious poster or VHS/DVD/BD cover then it can be safely avoided.
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Oct 9, 2022 21:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:There absolutely was an attempt to push a culture war storm with Fury Road which turned out to be a literal no-name blog that no one reads pushed as massive right-wing backlash. That's how it starts 99% of the time. People in a twitter bubble or some random blog makes up something sensational and it slowly catches on as a fact for a side. Disco Pope posted:Some of what's discussed above and thoughts I've been unpacking make me wonder if the accusation of a film being woke (as a negative) is in a large part aesthetic. The recent Resident Evil Netflix show and that Ghostbusters remake with the women cast are the best example for me of "woke". Changes for the sake of checking boxes to garner fans without any respect for the history of the media its presenting then brushing off criticism as hate. They also did it not to be allies or worry about actual representation but to make money and catch some sympathy. I think it's become more of a thing recently than it was years ago when people first started crying about it. In movies they try to check alot of boxes anyway so those are malleable.
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Oct 10, 2022 00:57
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think a lot of the conversation sort of mirrors how people try to write off the underlying critique of the Bechdel Test. Yes, it is possible to have great films without the presence a woman character, but (1) a great film without women still exists within broader trends of the stories of men being valued and elevated over that of women. (2) we once again don't have to categorize films as being one thing. You can and should engage with films with various lenses and you can see great value in a film while also seeing its lack of female characters and people of color and engage with the film from that standpoint. A good post. There's numerous great examples of movies that are misogynist but also pass the Bechdel. Passing the Bechdel test isn't a sign that you're a good movie, or even a feminist movie. It exists because it's remarkable how many movies don't pass the incredibly low bar it sets. Disco Pope posted:Some of what's discussed above and thoughts I've been unpacking make me wonder if the accusation of a film being woke (as a negative) is in a large part aesthetic. "Woke", used as a pejorative, means anything the person using it wants it to be. It's intentionally vague, that's why you'll find both right wing people using it to complain that there was multiple black people in the cast, but also from the left where some people might use it to refer to liberal virtue-signalling or performative allyship. However in my estimate it's 9 times out of 10 a right wing interpretation similar to "PC", "SJW", or whatever. As usual it's a term taken from black culture and twisted by white people to suit our purposes.
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Oct 10, 2022 21:07
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Timeless Appeal posted:... Certainly, but the final part of this tripartite is representation as a tool of oppression, in the reassertion of an order with an outsized effect to those same people. Even taken idealistically, the end goal appears to be the uniform distribution of oppression/exploitation along diverse lines. People have attempted to salvage this notion apolitically by creating a totalizing dichotomy between authentic/inauthentic representation. This unwittingly essentializes race/gender, as if black members of the professional managerial class have the same interests as black members of the underclass. To arrive on the other side of the looking glass: Jay-Z recently said that it’s racist to derogatively call him a capitalist. Jaxyon posted:"Woke", used as a pejorative, means anything the person using it wants it to be. It's intentionally vague, that's why you'll find both right wing people using it to complain that there was multiple black people in the cast, but also from the left where some people might use it to refer to liberal virtue-signalling or performative allyship. Jaxyon posted:...Both Django and the Help have huge problems but in different ways. However both are a ostensibly black stories shown within the boundaries of whiteness by white creators for a white audience. In this form of analysis, the problematic is basically determined in its proximity to whiteness. Relatedly, is it concerning that a term you've invoked a few times in this thread, white fragility, was conceptualized & popularized by a white academic? Coincidentally, she also promotes a similar salve to white supremacy in her gig as a diversity consultant to corporations.
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Oct 10, 2022 22:48
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KVeezy3 posted:In this form of analysis, the problematic is basically determined in its proximity to whiteness. Is it? quote:Relatedly, is it concerning that a term you've invoked a few times in this thread, white fragility, was conceptualized & popularized by a white academic? Coincidentally, she also promotes a similar salve to white supremacy in her gig as a diversity consultant to corporations. The fact that it was popularized by a white academic is part of white supremacy, yes. It's not a new concept and it's essentially a white woman selling things that black people have been saying for a long time, which white people are more willing to listen to because it comes from a white mouth. There's a lot of grifting in the white anti-racism space. Here's a discussion between two writers about DeAngelo specifically, her writing, and the term: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CL4uU1rn3kC/ I still use the term because like it or not, it's well known enough that people know what you're talking about when you say it. It's also used fairly widely even among activists of color. What term do you prefer?
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Oct 10, 2022 23:42
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This reminds me of something. A few years back there was a lot of haranguing from rightists about minorities/marginalized people weaponizing their identity through identity politics to castigate others. Basically using their census boxes to their advantage for a change. Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro types were sounding the alarm on it. But it came across as odd because I don't believe marginalized groups have usually put themselves into a box to be categorized and persecuted etc. And identity politics seems like something that would be a natural occurrence to sociologists AFAIK. I think there's some kind of disconnect in the *conversation going on between rightists and leftists in this area. i.e. "It's only identity politics when minorities do it!" Anyway, it feels like something a comedian or author could really exploit and get a lot of material from. I wonder if any prominent people have touched on this. Zogo fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 00:09
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Zogo posted:This reminds me of something. A few years back there was a lot of haranguing from rightists about minorities/marginalized people weaponizing their identity through identity politics to castigate others. Basically using their census boxes to their advantage for a change. Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro types were sounding the alarm on it. But it came across as odd because I don't believe marginalized groups have usually put themselves into a box to be categorized and persecuted etc. And identity politics seems like something that would be a natural occurrence to sociologists AFAIK. I think there's some kind of disconnect in the conservation going on between rightists and leftists in this area. i.e. "It's only identity politics when minorities do it!" Not 100% sure what you mean but generally what those type of people meant when they said people were "weaponizing their identity" was basically complaining about people telling them they were wrong.
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Oct 11, 2022 00:17
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Zogo posted:This reminds me of something. A few years back there was a lot of haranguing from rightists about minorities/marginalized people weaponizing their identity through identity politics to castigate others. Basically using their census boxes to their advantage for a change. Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro types were sounding the alarm on it. But it came across as odd because I don't believe marginalized groups have usually put themselves into a box to be categorized and persecuted etc. And identity politics seems like something that would be a natural occurrence to sociologists AFAIK. I think there's some kind of disconnect in the conservation going on between rightists and leftists in this area. i.e. "It's only identity politics when minorities do it!" The fact that Ben Shapiro, who sold himself to the right as their pet jew and has never passed up a chance to wear a kippah on television, would complain about anyone weaponizing identity politics tells you everything you need to know about him.
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Oct 11, 2022 00:34
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People who complain about identity politics are people who don't believe they have an accent.[/grossgeneralization]KVeezy3 posted:Certainly, but the final part of this tripartite is representation as a tool of oppression, in the reassertion of an order with an outsized effect to those same people. Even taken idealistically, the end goal appears to be the uniform distribution of oppression/exploitation along diverse lines. The Nigerian author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has a pretty concise TED Talk that's become a staple of classroom pushes for representation and inclusion around the danger of telling a single story. Like we said, 12 Angry Men is not inherently a bad story because it tells the story of 12 white men. Still, when we tell mostly the story of white men, there is a problem and as Adichie notes, a danger to that, because stories are how we understand the world. Now, we can say that there are stories with diverse casts or from marginalized groups that are bad and just further tie into oppressive narratives, and that's true.. Adichie notes in her talk how while she has dealt with stereotypes of being Nigerian, she also comes from a wealthy family and had awful stereotypes of poorer people in her own home. But we can also look at films like Night of the Living Dead and Alien that were not written with Black actor or a man in mind, respectively. But the inclusion of those actors are so fundamental to what the final story being told ended up being. Weaver recently revealed how instrumental she was in getting the version of Alien that we know and a version with a male lead would be an entirely different film. Even in stories that are not in their inception Black or women stories can be transformed by a simple casting against who you'd expect the story to be about, deciding to tell a different story. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 01:26
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Well the first prerequisite with that is making sure what's being made is actually a story being told by a storyteller, you know. With most Marvel movies or Star Wars or whatever does it matter who the director is or what the cast looks like if it's not being made to explore an idea or convey any sort of personal truth? The casts and crew get more diverse but there's less intellectual diversity over time.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:59
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