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Y'all narratove motherfuckers are hilarious. "I feel that this isn't fraud. The optics are...". Useless contrarianism. At best. I mean, you hear it, don't you? Read your own words with your nose held. Maybe then you'll hear it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2022 02:56
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SpeakSlow posted:Y'all narratove motherfuckers are hilarious. "I feel that this isn't fraud. The optics are...". Who are you even talking to.
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Nov 29, 2022 03:53
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He's responding to this incredibly moronic line of reasoning that couldn't withstand ten seconds of actual scrutiny.Rigel posted:I do not agree that this was a crime. I know some people are trying to say it was, but that argument is extremely weak. Some people were trying to force this fraud argument by suggesting that they were trying to trick everyone into accidentally accepting the wrong slate of electors or something and then calling that fraud. Well no, that was not really what was going on here. It was p. funny, especially the part about how something might be illegal in one state but coordinating the same fraud across seven states would somehow not constitute a Federal crime. The whole thing was loving hilarious actually. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2022 05:00
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Dr. Faustus posted:It was p. funny, especially the part about how something might be illegal in one state but coordinating the same fraud across seven states would somehow not constitute a Federal crime. The whole thing was loving hilarious actually. If the certificates had included an explanation that the electors should be accepted because the election results were wrong, then that might have been a state crime in some states, but not a Federal crime. As it is, it is a Federal crime only for reasons that are not actually very important or relevant to us. They could have simply written the certificates without an obvious lie (that they were certified by the state as the winner) and gotten the exact same hypothetical result if congress decided to believe their bullshit. Sending alternate slates to congress for whatever stupid reason that is not an obvious outright lie is not a Federal crime, its been done many times before, and no one has ever been charged with a crime in similar cases for being wrong or believing stupid things. Rigel fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Nov 29, 2022 |
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Nov 29, 2022 05:50
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Rigel posted:If the certificates had included an explanation that the electors should be accepted because the election results were wrong, then that might have been a state crime in some states, but not a Federal crime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jM13eQWAwA (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2022 06:26
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Rigel posted:As it is, it is a Federal crime only for reasons that are not actually very important or relevant to us.  ?What part of "Conspiring to commit a State crime across state lines or involving multiple states" = quote:What crimes are prosecuted by the federal government? Just stop spreading pure bullshit and move on.
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Nov 29, 2022 10:45
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Dr. Faustus posted:What part of "Conspiring to commit a State crime across state lines or involving multiple states" I was simply speculating that maybe a state has a procedural law with a crime for violating procedure saying that sending a slate of electors can only be done this way, and doing it any other way is a crime. It was a throwaway line because we are dealing with 7 states and I was only focused on the Federal issue. There is nothing like that Federally. If a chud governor threw out all mail ballots for whatever stupid reason, wrongly certified the GOP candidate in 2024, and the courts refused to intervene, then we would obviously send in our own slate of electors and ask congress to recognize the real winner. Unless you do something really stupid like outright lie that the state has recognized you as the real winner, then sending in a competing slate of electors for whatever reason is not (currently) a Federal crime, full stop. That is the only point I was ever making. I could have instead just simply said "I'm not sure if there are any issues with sending an alternate slate of electors at the state level." Other people ITT did not have any problem understanding what I was saying. As stupid as Trump's lawyers were, I have no doubt that some of them truthfully and earnestly believed they were right and the election was stolen. Rigel fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Nov 29, 2022 |
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Nov 29, 2022 13:56
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Rigel posted:Other people ITT did not have any problem understanding what I was saying. Gonna go ahead and let you know you're not right about any of this lol. I can't respond to the first half of your post because Faustus has clearly given you the best explanation that can be made and you simply aren't reading it. The back half of this committee has been aimed at proving the intent. Everybody around Trump, including the lawyers, understood Jan 6 was a scheme to overcome losing the election. The subsection of "righteous folks heroically saving the world from election fraud" is so small it doesn't even register. It was all propaganda, and that you believe it to some degree means it was very good propaganda.
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Nov 29, 2022 14:15
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Judge Schnoopy posted:Gonna go ahead and let you know you're not right about any of this lol. I can't respond to the first half of your post because Faustus has clearly given you the best explanation that can be made and you simply aren't reading it. I'm going to confidently just say that the Kraken lady does believe the election was stolen. Trump probably doesn't (but that is going to be hard to prove since he's nuts), but he was hiring incompetent morons who somehow had a law license and believed what he wanted them to believe. The only thing that makes this an obvious crime is the clear lie that was written in black and white that they are recognized by the state as winners. If you don't blatantly lie in the certificate, then it is not a Federal crime to send in alternate slates of electors, period. It has happened many times. Rigel fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Nov 29, 2022 |
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Nov 29, 2022 14:31
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Judge Schnoopy posted:The subsection of "righteous folks heroically saving the world from election fraud" is so small it doesn't even register. It was all propaganda, and that you believe it to some degree means it was very good propaganda. Scum, all of them. I am 100% serious when I avow we are lucky as gently caress Liz Cheney is so pissed at McCarthy and the Freedom Caucus for revenge. The goal of destroying him for it just happens to coincide with abandoning the MAGA GOP and probably throwing away any chance at real power ever again, and thank goodness that just happens to also coincide with protecting democracy for a little while. That's a big win. At least I thank so. Also, thanks.  Jesus loving Christ: Rigel posted:If you don't blatantly lie in the certificate, Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Nov 29, 2022 |
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Nov 29, 2022 14:35
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Rigel posted:If you don't blatantly lie in the certificate, then it is not a Federal crime to send in alternate slates of electors, period. It has happened many times. Can we, perhaps, stop discussing the hypothetical thing that didn't happen? Rigel posted:The only thing that makes this an obvious crime is the clear lie that was written in black and white that they are recognized by the state as winners. And stick to a discussion about the thing that did happen, especially given that this is a thread for discussing the congressional committee investigating the thing that did happen?
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Nov 29, 2022 14:47
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Is there a sound way to point to the Red Fizzle midterms as proof of... anything when dealing with CHUDs? I know the obvious answer is never, no and why would you try? I'm just kinda blown away by the results of the midterms. Not everyone might agree but to me it seemed like a massive repudiation of election deniers (even though they are still everywhere!) and I am wondering if there's a if>then soundbite way of putting it that might make someone think. I wish I had an idea what the J6 Cmte meant to do with their report. Are they going to hold a televised hearing and present anything new (like whatever Conway and others have confirmed or added?) or will it just get released? If nothing else I suppose we'll see them all over the media talking about their conclusions on the news shows? I never actually learned how they intend to wrap up, if they actually know yet? VV Hey, that's my bad. I meant to post a disclaimer along the lines of "barring the glaring Demonrats steal elections!" part. VV Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Nov 29, 2022 |
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Nov 29, 2022 14:57
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Dr. Faustus posted:Is there a sound way to point to the Red Fizzle midterms as proof of... anything when dealing with CHUDs? I know the obvious answer is never, no and why would you try? If somebody believes that the GOP is losing elections because the Democrats are fraudulently stealing the election, then an unexpected wave of GOP defeats will likely only reinforce that belief.
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Nov 29, 2022 18:13
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Dr. Faustus posted:What is this What you need to do is start with the fact that nobody important is being prosecuted and work backwards from there to explain how they didn't do anything wrong. Maybe they all just made a mistake! Somebody said they thought there were bamboo slivers on the ballots, they might all have believed it for real on their hearts you don't know! It's not a crime to be wrong about whether 7 million illegals voted for Biden in California and try to certify that Trump got 400 EVs (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2022 19:10
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Dr. Faustus posted:Is there a sound way to point to the Red Fizzle midterms as proof of... anything when dealing with CHUDs? I know the obvious answer is never, no and why would you try? I talk to conservatives a fair amount and I generally just mention that the only thing that matters is winning and if they're still convinced after 2022 that conservatives will vote republican 100% of the time then they better have a good explanation for what happened in 2018, 2020, 2022. Especially 2022. I usually then drop the subject because there's no point getting into an argument over it, but it's very much worth challenging the assertion the 'the conservative core will always come back to republicans,' which has demonstrably failed to happen several times now.
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Nov 29, 2022 20:35
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I talk to conservatives a fair amount and I generally just mention that the only thing that matters is winning and if they're still convinced after 2022 that conservatives will vote republican 100% of the time then they better have a good explanation for what happened in 2018, 2020, 2022. Especially 2022. I usually then drop the subject because there's no point getting into an argument over it, but it's very much worth challenging the assertion the 'the conservative core will always come back to republicans,' which has demonstrably failed to happen several times now. Do you have any links or visualizations to show this? To me, "conservative core" is 35+ straight white wealthy men, and I think they turned out just as strong for Republicans. The GOP lost tons of women voters in the last few elections. I think there's an old-world mentality of "wives will vote with their husbands full stop" that simply isn't playing out, time and time again. Other than that, it's massive turnout for Dems that's winning elections. I don't know that it's necessarily a problem with the conservative core - they can turn out all they want, that voting block is simply too small.
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Nov 29, 2022 21:16
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Rigel posted:I'm going to confidently just say that the Kraken lady does believe the election was stolen. Trump probably doesn't (but that is going to be hard to prove since he's nuts), but he was hiring incompetent morons who somehow had a law license and believed what he wanted them to believe. The only thing that makes this an obvious crime is the clear lie that was written in black and white that they are recognized by the state as winners. I think that probably something like 3/4 of THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN types know it's bullshit. Maybe it's 1/2. But what they're doing, and what they've learned from Trump, is to just say poo poo and do poo poo and then dare someone to loving do anything about it; or delay things for as long as possible when someone tries. Like the certification delay in Arizona s just the most recent example and I expect these tactics to continue and even ramp up. The laws we have in place to prevent their nonsense are only as strong as the people prosecuting and enforcing them. It's why the GOP crazies get really aggressive filling vacant court seats, school boards and things like that. They don't care about rules, laws, the constitution they think was written by Jesus and certainly not anything as quaint as decorum or precedents built on good faith and politeness like ceding elections. They're DARING people to stop them and playing off the general weakness of the democrats along with the rapidly increasing stupidity of the general electorate.
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Nov 29, 2022 21:49
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Judge Schnoopy posted:The GOP lost tons of women voters in the last few elections. I think there's an old-world mentality of "wives will vote with their husbands full stop" that simply isn't playing out, time and time again.
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Nov 29, 2022 22:25
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Oracle posted:To be fair, their wives are lying through their teeth to them telling them just this. I can't tell you how many women I ran into canvassing over the last few years (especially in upper middle class suburbs) who would step out on the porch to talk to me in a low voice thanking me for coming, chatting about the election, but not wanting any lit or to talk for very long because their husbands were home and 'you know how men get with all this politics stuff.' Yeah I didn’t keep stats or nothing from phone-banking, but I certainly noticed some disparities involving the presence of male voices in the background.
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Nov 29, 2022 22:43
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Stewart Rhodes guilty of seditious conspiracy, other verdicts being announced. https://news.yahoo.com/u-jury-reaches-verdict-trial-214559022.html
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Nov 29, 2022 23:25
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Rhodes and Meggs are doing the full 20 and maybe more. The others will get 10+, Caldwell might get 8
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Nov 29, 2022 23:41
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I think the issue is that a Congressmember HAS the right, even the job, of certifying those things? I'm not a constitutional scholar or anything, but while that stuff might be a 'rubber stamp' it is still something where a rep is asked 'are you okay with this, aye or nay', and when you start to go 'Hey, you voted WRONG on this, and therefor you are a criminal' that seems to be a door that you might not want to open. Even if the vote they made was of course, absolute dogshit. Now any kind of thing that is outside of their 'doing congressperson' stuff like actively collaborating and giving guided tours? That's another matter entirely.
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Nov 29, 2022 23:56
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Shogeton posted:I think the issue is that a Congressmember HAS the right, even the job, of certifying those things? I'm not a constitutional scholar or anything, but while that stuff might be a 'rubber stamp' it is still something where a rep is asked 'are you okay with this, aye or nay', and when you start to go 'Hey, you voted WRONG on this, and therefor you are a criminal' that seems to be a door that you might not want to open. Even if the vote they made was of course, absolute dogshit. So what part is some racist weirdos meeting in secret in the parking lot of a Denny’s.
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Nov 30, 2022 00:07
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Saw a news clip about the Kellyanne Conway. It said nothing new except she was in for 5 hours and didnt say the 5th once.
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Nov 30, 2022 00:10
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OgNar posted:Saw a news clip about the Kellyanne Conway. It said nothing new except she was in for 5 hours and didnt say the 5th once. Now there's someone I can't imagine caring one way or another what happens to the people she talks about.
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Nov 30, 2022 00:20
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Shogeton posted:I think the issue is that a Congressmember HAS the right, even the job, of certifying those things? IE there's a "contractual obligation" that when violated can be handled via impeachment, censure, and even votes of no confidence. None of their powers permit them to do something illegal, by definition, because they have no powers except those that are granted to them. A duty to certify a result does not grant impediment at a higher level. It's like an employment contract, "all other duties as required", but you can still be immediately terminated because of your misinterpretation. So then, if they violated their oathes, by definition some illegal activity occurred. If it was in furtherance of a conspiracy, and it can be established that they were coordinating with the conspirators, as opposed to just being used by them, then they are part of the conspiracy.
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Nov 30, 2022 00:25
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Shogeton posted:I think the issue is that a Congressmember HAS the right, even the job, of certifying those things? I'm not a constitutional scholar or anything, but while that stuff might be a 'rubber stamp' it is still something where a rep is asked 'are you okay with this, aye or nay', and when you start to go 'Hey, you voted WRONG on this, and therefor you are a criminal' that seems to be a door that you might not want to open. Even if the vote they made was of course, absolute dogshit.
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Nov 30, 2022 00:29
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Judge Schnoopy posted:Do you have any links or visualizations to show this? To me, "conservative core" is 35+ straight white wealthy men, and I think they turned out just as strong for Republicans. I don't have any especially good stuff on that because I can not emphasize enough how much I don't care to get into arguments with conservatives about this stuff and tbh I think it's more effective to not even try to argue it. I personally could give two shits if republicans want to keep shooting themselves in the foot politically and by and large I'd prefer that they do, though on a personal level I really, really would like to see the republican party repudiate the neo-nazi poo poo. To give an actually useful answer though, the substance behind the statement is that the republican party keeps alienating vital parts of its constituency and so long as they're at an innate disadvantage on a national scale due to demographics (eg they're outnumbered by liberals and democrats and independents, who emphatically are not locked down automatically for republicans) they simply can not be out there alienating significant amounts of their voter base while still hoping to be nationally competitive. Hell, in some cases even competitive on state level as the last few elections have shown. Basically you just can't launch a war on women, a war on minorities, a war on immigrants, engage in both overt and thinly veiled antisemitism and homophobia and transphobia and still put together a coalition big enough to be nationally viable. On a related note, even the anti-American 'we need to overthrow the gay liberal Soros order' poo poo turned off a lot of conservatives and as far as white conservative guys are concerned, I've run into a surprising amount who innately take issue with that who just aren't voting republican as long as that's what the republican party is publicly about. Obviously that's not the majority of white conservative dudes, but it also doesn't have to be: if 10% of them stop voting R, that not only make republicans non viable nationally, it starts endangering gerrymanders as we've already seen. in 2022 the number of Republicans who voted blue was ~10% and republican performance with independents was disastrous. One of the single biggest things 2022 in particular repudiated was the right's belief that no matter what conservatives will always pull the lever for republicans at the end of the day. There's another side to it that they probably should be mindful of whether it is in their interest to do things that are going to drive dem turnout up to literally record levels, as they've managed in the last few elections, but I think that's kind of a separate topic. There's another issue with republicans just running dogshit electoral strategies ('we're going to win by a landslide' which has a subtext of 'no need to even bother trying,' which is literally electoral strategy 101 stuff) and even poo poo that is actually stupider than electoral strategies, which is hyping up the idea that you're going to steal the next election... and then failing to steal it. Right wing fantasies of imminent civil war are a step beyond this and in addition to all the other detrimental effects of that poo poo, it's intrinsically a circlejerk about how elections don't matter. There's a reason why Alex Jones and Roger Stone were on air within days of the election trying to steer conspiracy republicans back into the electoral system. Obviously none of this is to say that dems have jack poo poo locked down or are going to be successful and while dems have plenty of their own issues, I'm purely talking about the health of the republican party as an entity that is trying to win elections and which has currently split off a significant and vital part of its voter base. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 01:04
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It's been posted but I cannot emphasize enough how pleased I am Rhoads and Meggs have been found guilty of Seditious Conspiracy. Been waiting for these charges to succeed or fail and now that we have results I'm even more confident Trump will be indicted on the same charge. Lots of good news today actually: Congress kinda/sorta codifying same-sex/interracial marriage (1/2 assed but it passed the Senate and goes back to the House now). Mark Meadows told to testify in GA by the SC Supreme Court. A judge found Trump doesn't have absolute immunity in his case against the NAACP and Michigan. The Fuentes visit is getting a ton of press and has the GOP on defense. There's more, but that's just newest stuff. The Ye/Fuentes/Pim Tool drama is loving hilarious, too. Between him and Musk they sure seem to be dedicated to showing how outstandingly stupid they can be and yet still cause complete havoc because Capitalism. It's very funny, in a very dark way.
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Nov 30, 2022 01:38
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Dr. Faustus posted:It's been posted but I cannot emphasize enough how pleased I am Rhoads and Meggs have been found guilty of Seditious Conspiracy. Right there with you.
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Nov 30, 2022 02:41
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Interesting https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1597704042213675008
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Nov 30, 2022 02:53
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Dr. Faustus posted:Is there a sound way to point to the Red Fizzle midterms as proof of... anything when dealing with CHUDs? I know the obvious answer is never, no and why would you try? There is a complicated argument to be made that four states ran blatantly illegal gerrymanders (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/08/us/elections/gerrymandering-maps-elections-republicans.html) and that those illegal slates gave the republicans maybe as many as 7 house seats. Which on its own and all else being the same would be a 220R/215D house. So, without those maps Ds would almost certainly have kept the house. It doesn’t ‘prove’ anything other than that Rs have to cheat to win and cheat more and more blatantly as time goes on. If that doesn’t tell them that there is something deeply wrong with their politics then not much will.
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Nov 30, 2022 02:56
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There's a limit to how far they can go with gerrymandering and denying the franchise. I think that they've reached their high-water mark.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:07
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I’m listening.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:07
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WTF? https://twitter.com/RyanPinesworth/status/1597687740719837186
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Nov 30, 2022 04:35
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The actual root source is this thread of tweets from the Nantucket Current, which unlike both RyanPinesworth and the Independent, mention that one of the vehicles, a Ford Expedition, was under a battery recall. A bit of googling indicates it's that the battery junction box will catch fire on its own. Here's the primary article on the event from the Current's site. All of which is to say, read the sources for the tweets you're linking, and recognize that RyanPinesworth is a lovely source of information (and so, to a significant extent, is the Independent). This also has nothing to do with the Jan 6 hearings. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 04:53
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Wasn't Biden's Secret Service detail constantly getting into weird automobile mishaps all the time during the Obama presidency too? Nice to see some things are consistent across time, I guess.
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Nov 30, 2022 04:56
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nine-gear crow posted:Wasn't Biden's Secret Service detail constantly getting into weird automobile mishaps all the time during the Obama presidency too? Nice to see some things are consistent across time, I guess. He makes them drag race at red lights.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:47
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Rigel posted:I'm going to confidently just say that the Kraken lady does believe the election was stolen. Trump probably doesn't (but that is going to be hard to prove since he's nuts), but he was hiring incompetent morons who somehow had a law license and believed what he wanted them to believe. The only thing that makes this an obvious crime is the clear lie that was written in black and white that they are recognized by the state as winners. It's wholly possible the people who signed themselves up as fake electors will not be prosecuted but the people who convinced them to be fake electors will be. Which to me is by and large fine.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:52
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I don't know what sick thrill Tigel gets from carrying water equivalent to the Pacific for Trump and the seditionists but that must be some exhausting release man. Just like laughing at the nerd going "b...but the LAW says..." when Trump and Co wiped their crusty taints with the concept. "Oh, I mean MTG and Boebert we're just excited to show all these 3%er Militia Men and Planning PPl all around the capitol! Especially Pelosi's office and egress routes!" "Well of course they were tweeting and texting the movements of the Reps! They didn't want anyone to worry!" Honestly! Why give any of these freaks the benefit of the doubt! Why!? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 30, 2022 07:14
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