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I don't think it's the studio tentpole or executive meddling or anything. Executive meddling may have been there when Trevorrow and his script left, but most of what makes the movie bad is one-trick-pony director Abrams and random-quality-generator writer Terrio having to write, shoot, and edit a tremendous special effects movie with a bunch of moving parts in only two years. It being passable would've been a miracle, studio interference or no.
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Dec 14, 2022 22:51
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Yeah, I thought it was hilarious when there were all the rumors about hoe Disney hosed up RoS with all their meddling, as if the film didn't suck in ways that are extremely characteristic of JJ Abrams.
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Dec 14, 2022 23:09
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mDujIVXR0o
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Dec 14, 2022 23:43
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There might have been a window for a miracle if a. JJ hadn't written it and b. JJ hadn't kept loving with the story up to and on the day things were shot, then loving with it even more in editing up to the deadline for the premiere. I mean he was flailing obviously, but I don't really understand why, it seems like doing it that way was entirely his and terrio's call. If they had known what they were making at any point it probably would have been less blatantly shoddy in construction at least
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Dec 14, 2022 23:50
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I'm one of the biggest JJ apologists on the forums, but even I have to admit that this is one of the dumbest things ever committed to film. Even from a "The Force was guiding her!" POV, it doesn't work. I've got nothing.
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Dec 15, 2022 00:00
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Hulk Krogan posted:Yeah, I thought it was hilarious when there were all the rumors about hoe Disney hosed up RoS with all their meddling, as if the film didn't suck in ways that are extremely characteristic of JJ Abrams. The studio hired the Hollywood equivalent of a mediocre cover band and got exactly what they paid for (billions in revenue from weaponized nostalgia).
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Dec 15, 2022 00:01
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Before Episode 9, I’d never seen a movie that felt like the creators of it didn’t bother to watch it all the way through before releasing it. It felt like one of those all-nighter papers I wrote in college the day before it was due, turning it in three minutes before the deadline.
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Dec 15, 2022 00:10
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General Dog posted:It’s not really much worse than Force Awakens, Force Awakens just has the advantage of being the one that raises a bunch of dumb questions as opposed to being the one that has to answer them. That advantage is all it needs. TFA is a creatively bankrupt movie held up solid performances by Kylo, Finn and Han. As well as a fine performance by Rey. As in she actually has a personality. It also posits a bunch of interesting questions. It also helps a lot if a movie doesn’t keep trying to take back it’s stakes. (Chewie and 3Po dying) But let’s talk rogue one, because I finished it with my son today. He unequivocally loved it. I haven’t asked for s ranking yet, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he ranks it second. K was his favorite character, but it did prompt him to ask why all the bots have such interesting or sarcastic personalities. Runner up was probably Baze, big guns and kids  We picked up just as Jedda is blasted. The explosion impressed him, I was expecting him to be confused why the planet was still in 1 pieces but no question came. Then came the Galen “rescue”. Not much of a response, though Chirrut fascinates him. “I think he can deflect blaster bolts!” “But he’s not a Jedi” “No, but he is with the force and he is using it” And Chirrut’s bow is obviously cool. I spent most of this section wondering why I dislike it. There’s nothing really wrong with it, but it’s just not interesting for me. I think it gives me a side quest feeling. Like what was gained here? The Death Star plans thing was already known at that point. Andor’s internal struggle falls flat because no one saw it before. Jyn isn’t really set into motion by the death of her father. Either with or without them, Galen would’ve died. Feels like they should’ve moved his death elsewhere somehow. I loved that he kept asking me throughout the movie which Jedi Bail and Mon Mothma were talking about. But fortunately after that we arrive at Scariff. It’s so good. Just as Scariff was beginning My son suddenly asked me in what other media Jynn would participate. “Errr…let’s…keep watching? Now is not the time to talk about that. “  And then I had fun watching his expression change as the tone went from k2 bonking someone on the head to people slowly dying.  -> ->  ->  I love that K2 moves differently from the other same model droids and that my son picked up on that as well. The Darth Vader scene was  all the way through. As the credits rolled his lightsaber was pulled out again to be used to jump around and stab dad. After getting better from the stabbing I told him about cgi Tarkin. His response was: “Oh!! So that’s why he looked so terrible with those ugly eyes and wrinkles.” It amazes me when people apparently can see it’s fake but can’t come to the conclusion it’s fake. (And how much is the cgi and how much is Cushing actually looking like a zombie?) I found Tarkin amazingly done but distracting and still think so. All in all, Rogue 1 is a competent wat movie and a fun StarWars movie with an amazing climax. Only Solo is left, the movie I never watched myself. 
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Dec 15, 2022 00:13
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Having a movie try to convince us that she just happened to stop in the right spot, and produced the mystery dagger designed to match that exact perspective of randomly placed sea wreckage makes any level of sense is plainly insulting. Even in a kid's movie it is nonsense. Shows for 4 year olds put in more thought. It's barely one step above 60's Batman's "Sea ... C ... Catwoman" deduction.
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Dec 15, 2022 00:19
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The best thing is that it didn't point to the secret compartment in deck's 10 janitor closet or anything, the loving throne room is the most obvious place even without the stupid dagger
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Dec 15, 2022 00:29
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I mean if we're talking JJ Abrams I'll maintain to my dying day that Super 8 is kind of a great movie, one that manages to be its own thing even as it's obviously in the Spielbergian Childhood genre. And like, his Trek movies don't have great plots but even when Into Darkness gets clumsy with the Khan stuff, it's never as weird as TROS seemingly bringing up new plot points every 15 minutes until the end. It's not just that it doesn't feel like a sequel to Last Jedi, it doesn't really feel much like a sequel to Force Awakens either. It feels like a sequel to a film we never got.
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Dec 15, 2022 00:31
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Looking at his filmography JJ has co-written more scripts over his career than I thought, I had always kinda assumed him doing it for star wars was a late stage finally fully getting high on his own farts thing. In any case, he really should not have been allowed to co-write the scripts!
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Dec 15, 2022 00:36
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well why not posted:Having a movie try to convince us that she just happened to stop in the right spot, and produced the mystery dagger designed to match that exact perspective of randomly placed sea wreckage makes any level of sense is plainly insulting. Even in a kid's movie it is nonsense. Shows for 4 year olds put in more thought. Oh jesus gently caress, this was one of those scenes I had wiped from my memory. So much of Rise of the Skywalker felt like JJs entire process was to ask concept artists to come up with as many cool looking 'iconic images' (Rey on a hill overlooking death star wreckage! Rey in the throne room looking evil! Twelve zillion Star Destroyers in atmosphere! Horses on a star destroyer!) He then picked out his favourites, stuck up them on the wall in a loose order as his 'storyboard' then haphazardly wrote the barest of plot threads to join them all together. In retrospect, the Force Awakens felt the same way, but it had a lot more time to polish out the rougher edges and had the promise of what's next uplifting it.
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Dec 15, 2022 00:38
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I do also wonder how much fan and critic expectations really poisoned the sequel trilogy. After the financially successful but critically derided prequels, JJ and Disney doubled down on the 'what made A New Hope work?' and started that as their basis for Force Awakens. Arguably, they went a step too far / achieved that goal by crassly copying it, but it was a successful move. The film went gangbusters, with mostly positive feedback. At the time, though criticised, the reference fest was seen through the lens of bridging the old with the new, and it had established a place where sequels could do their own thing with new characters. It's follow up, the Last Jedi felt like a direct response to those negative criticisms of Force Awakens got. Instead of nostalgia baiting, it set up many familiar Star Wars esque moments - then went in the complete opposite direction with them. It briefly played with many expected archtypes of Star Wars and tried something different. It zigged, where the original trilogy zagged. This gave it good critical acclaim, and for long time 'tired of Star War' people like myself, really responded positively. But a large (or loud, at least) portion of the audience loving hated it. I've never seen so much viritol to a film in my life, and this is in a franchise where Rise of the Skywalker exists. As such, it seems that whatever film Colin Treverrow was making got haphazardly shelved in a desperate course correction to make something that was a direct response to Last Jedi criticism. There's lines of dialog that basically just discount things that happened in the second film 'that shot was one in a million' and even the name of the film is an attempt to retcon the fact that The Last Jedi set up Rey as being a 'nobody' without some predetermined superpower genealogy.
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Dec 15, 2022 01:02
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Isometric Bacon posted:It's follow up, the Last Jedi felt like a direct response to those negative criticisms of Force Awakens got. Instead of nostalgia baiting, it set up many familiar Star Wars esque moments - then went in the complete opposite direction with them. It briefly played with many expected archtypes of Star Wars and tried something different. It zigged, where the original trilogy zagged. TLJ is a perfectly okay film but it is absolutely just more of the same Star Wars as before.
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Dec 15, 2022 01:10
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The structure of star wars 8 is to introduce seeming problems with star wars for about 70% of the runtime, then use the last 30% to say ignore those things, star wars is great. The movie is about 30% too long so it's extremely easy for both its fans and reactionaries to forget the part where it reverts to incredibly safe generic star wars pablum about hope
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Dec 15, 2022 01:26
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Schwarzwald posted:TLJ is a perfectly okay film but it is absolutely just more of the same Star Wars as before. Oh it's definitely a Star Wars film - It's not doing anything to redefine the genre or anything - it's just purposefully playing against people's expectations in a direct response to the way Force Awakens played to them.
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Dec 15, 2022 01:29
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Schwarzwald posted:TLJ is a perfectly okay film but it is absolutely just more of the same Star Wars as before. It purposefully subverts expectations, only to bring things back towards the status quo (but stuck the franchise in a situation where they COULDNT remake Jedi for the last movie since it killed off the entire Resistance outside of a few people and got rid of the fake Emperor - which is also why TRoS is so hilarious in somehow just bringing it back). It brought up a lot of familiar stuff from Empire and a chunk of Jedi and then changed a big piece of it to surprise you. They meet Lando, he is a traitor, like Lando, but then instead of becoming good, he just got his money and went home which never happens. And so on.
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Dec 15, 2022 01:37
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All of this talk just makes me more excited to see what Damon Lindelof will do with Star Wars. He's basically alternate universe JJ that actually learned from his mistakes with Lost and knows how to make content that is at bare minimum interesting.
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Dec 15, 2022 02:45
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Darko posted:It brought up a lot of familiar stuff from Empire and a chunk of Jedi and then changed a big piece of it to surprise you. They meet Lando, he is a traitor, like Lando, but then instead of becoming good, he just got his money and went home which never happens. And so on. This is prolly why TROS turned out the way it did, lmao. Nothing to copy anymore!
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Dec 15, 2022 06:19
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well why not posted:It's barely one step above 60's Batman's "Sea ... C ... Catwoman" deduction. 60's Batman rules wtf
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Dec 15, 2022 06:23
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teagone posted:This is prolly why TROS turned out the way it did, lmao. Nothing to copy anymore! And yet they copied anyway - it still kind of amazes me that they repeated the Emperor's throne room scene in TLJ, then did it again in TROS (because It Is a Star Wars Thing that has to happen in the third movie).
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Dec 15, 2022 10:54
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Asgerd posted:And yet they copied anyway - it still kind of amazes me that they repeated the Emperor's throne room scene in TLJ, then did it again in TROS (because It Is a Star Wars Thing that has to happen in the third movie). Rats what's so amazing about it. The Resistance has no more ships and people except, nope, it's the same size as the Rebellion again! Snoke is dead and Kylo is the defacto leader of the First Order - nah The Emperor returned...somehow! It's actually somewhat amazing.
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Dec 15, 2022 15:33
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Ironslave posted:I don't think it's the studio tentpole or executive meddling or anything. Executive meddling may have been there when Trevorrow and his script left, but most of what makes the movie bad is one-trick-pony director Abrams and random-quality-generator writer Terrio having to write, shoot, and edit a tremendous special effects movie with a bunch of moving parts in only two years. It being passable would've been a miracle, studio interference or no.
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Dec 15, 2022 16:09
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Hulk Krogan posted:Yeah, I thought it was hilarious when there were all the rumors about hoe Disney hosed up RoS with all their meddling, as if the film didn't suck in ways that are extremely characteristic of JJ Abrams. Those rumors were for sure put out by JJ surrogates, and I don't believe there's any conceivable "good" cut of the movie, but I'll say this- RoS 100% plays like a movie that was planned to be at least 30-40 minutes longer. I don't think that's really a better movie, but it probably makes at least a little more sense. I'd also be really curious to see a breakdown of what elements were added in reshoots and how much that stuff contributes to some of the more nonsensical plot points: -How late of an addition was Ian MacDiarmid as Palpatine? -Was Chewbacca originally supposed to die for real, or was he originally never captured at all? -Was the destruction of Kijimi and the plot point about every Star Destroyer having a Death Star canon a last minute tack-on? -Were there originally fewer McGuffins? More McGuffins?
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Dec 15, 2022 17:06
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I feel like evil Rey had to be an actual twist at one point, like maybe she fought Finn (whose character arc presumably still existed in earlier drafts) And then when they cut all that they went "aw gently caress Disney already made the evil Rey toys, we have to stick her somewhere so the action figure makes sense"
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Dec 15, 2022 17:20
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Wasn't there supposed to be 13 palpatines?
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Dec 15, 2022 17:39
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Now that would have been ineresting "Somehow.. Palpatine has returned. And now theres 13 of them!"
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Dec 15, 2022 17:51
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Are you thinking of the Alan Dean Foster treatment where a resurrected Luke fights a room full of Snoke clones?
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Dec 15, 2022 17:53
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https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2019-12-17/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-palpatinequote:How did it feel when you first returned for “Episode IX”?
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Dec 15, 2022 18:27
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I guess maybe the weirdest part with Palpatine is how he's awkwardly revealed from the very start (in the opening crawl and in the scene with Kylo meeting him). It seems almost certain to me, just as a person who's watched a few movies, that the audience, Kylo, and our heroes originally weren't supposed to learn about or encounter Palpatine until much later in the movie, and I can't for the life of me figure why it was changed. In the final cut, Palpatine's (offscreen) radio broadcast is the inciting event for the Rey and friends to go off looking for the thing, maybe there was originally some other carrot they went off after that ended up being cut.
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Dec 15, 2022 18:37
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I am dreading the news that, somehow, Disney found a way to be mean to Henry Cavill today. Like, offer him the role of Kyle Katarn only to yank it away after he proudly made a first press announcement.
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Dec 15, 2022 18:45
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You should change the title. It would be more fun if I could surprise people with it
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Dec 15, 2022 19:14
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My expectation was that at some point in the movie, Kylo would go to some spooky place and talk to Palpatine's ghost for a minute. I could never have anticipated that the entire movie would be build around It Was Palpatine All Along.
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Dec 15, 2022 19:21
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Halloween Jack posted:Another thing I really noticed, rewatching the ST, is that lines of dialogue like "Somehow Palpatine returned" stuck with me. I knew the last film was ludicrous, but man oh man they really didn't give a poo poo. My friends and I will routinely look at a fake camera and exclaim, "I AM THE SPY" to each other at any given opportunity.
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Dec 15, 2022 19:34
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DeimosRising posted:You should change the title. It would be more fun if I could surprise people with it there ya go
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Dec 15, 2022 19:53
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Halloween Jack posted:Do you think they had complete creative freedom to make the best movie they could in two years? We don't really have any reason to believe Disney interfered with Abrams or Terrio during production, no. Now, they might have been the reason that Trevorrow departed and why his script wasn't used, thus being the thing that forced Abrams and Terrio into such a cramped deadline. You cannot produce a two-and-a-half hour CG-filled spectacle with an ensemble cast that's meant to be the finale to a beloved science-fantasy series in two years, good director and writer or not. If you want to claim executive meddling, the most obvious case is them not moving that deadline when it's obvious that this expectation was insane, but it'd still be Terrio and Abrams and I don't think it would've made much of a difference on the quality of the final product, it'd probably just have more rough edges smoothed out. The movie's issues are very typical of Abrams. And Terrio's writing has never been even (though maybe you could blame the atrociousness of Batman v. Superman on Snyder's directing, I haven't see his script for that).
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Dec 15, 2022 20:32
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If you're one of those people who thinks that BvS was too dark and grim and gritty and serious, you should know that Terrio lightened it up and removed at least one comically tone-def "edgy" scene.The Vanity Fair Chris Terrio interview posted:Another complaint was that Snyder’s DC films were too grim and heavy. Did you feel blamed for that?
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Dec 15, 2022 21:28
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Darko posted:Rats what's so amazing about it. The Resistance has no more ships and people except, nope, it's the same size as the Rebellion again! Snoke is dead and Kylo is the defacto leader of the First Order - nah The Emperor returned...somehow! It's actually somewhat amazing. This and how it ended with Luke dying also had me genuinely hype for episode 9, because I just figured there'd be a some kind of substantial time jump or something, or more about Luke's/the Jedi's legendary status effecting people or whatever instead of the absolute dogshit episode 9 we got instead.
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Dec 15, 2022 22:57
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General Dog posted:I guess maybe the weirdest part with Palpatine is how he's awkwardly revealed from the very start (in the opening crawl and in the scene with Kylo meeting him). It seems almost certain to me, just as a person who's watched a few movies, that the audience, Kylo, and our heroes originally weren't supposed to learn about or encounter Palpatine until much later in the movie, and I can't for the life of me figure why it was changed. Originally Abrams' version of the movie opened with Finn and Poe meeting with an informant on Kijimi who told them about the First Order building a massive fleet in deep space, but that Babu Frik's people, who had spent their lives as slave labor working in the tiny crevices inside Star Destroyers, had discovered a weakness in the design that could be exploited by a MacGuffin device. Unfortunately the device was still missing some crucial components and wasn't usable. They took the information back to the Resistance, and Rey was able to use her scavenger experience to point them towards an old shipbuilder who used to visit Jakku who might be able to help them find the part. They head to Pasaana, and it seems that from there the shipbuilder points them to the wreckage of the Death Star as the place that has the old Imperial parts they need to build the MacGuffin device. While all this has been going on, Kylo discovers that Palpatine has been resurrected underneath the old Jedi Temple on Coruscant, which has been abandoned. Eventually Kylo catches up with Rey on the Death Star and takes her back to Coruscant while the rest of the heroes deal with the sabotage brick. The finale of the movie then would have had the Resistance attacking the First Order fleet in space, while Rey deals with Kylo and Palpatine on Coruscant. I think that the reason things changed might have been due to wanting the Rey stuff and the Resistance stuff to happen in the same location. That way Palpatine has something tangible to tempt Rey with (join me and you can stop your friends from being killed), and making her choice meaningful also means the MacGuffin device couldn't be a viable option. If that's the case, it would have a domino effect that required Palpatine to be introduced way earlier in the movie in order to set up the movie's stakes and what the Resistance characters are actually trying to do. If anyone's interested I made a video that goes more in-depth into all the stuff that seems to have made the movie turn out the way it did.
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Dec 15, 2022 22:58
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