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Paul Zuvella posted:Moving away from blocks was the best thing that they have done for draft basically ever. Even now, draft formats are solved in like 5-7 days tops, can you imagine if that was the format for 8-9 entire months? I mean different sets have different amounts of depth and what being "solved" means varies quite a bit (big difference between "archetype wins if uncontested" and "must/must no be in X color(s)") + adding (theoretically) complementary sets used to shake that up quite a bit (unlikely to get multiples and much broader card pools) so it doesn't inherently mean the format gets too stale, and in fact some of the better designed blocks didn't really but those blocks were far more exceptions than the rule and not something that could be consistently delivered on, so despite that quibble I'd fully agree that moving away from blocks is about the best thing they've ever done for limited (besides designing sets for it in the first place) e: TheKingofSprings posted:https://articles.starcitygames.com/magic-the-gathering/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines-the-good-and-the-bad/ this is extremely funny, especially given his recent comments on Commanders' influence on other formats and also being in relation to a white 5 drop with no etb value in the loving sol ring format LGD fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Dec 22, 2022 |
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Dec 22, 2022 19:40
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I could see where turning off etbs might feel too anti-fun for the format, but come one. If three drop Teferi is legal, you can't use being anti-fun as a reason for banning something.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:49
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Wittgen posted:I could see where turning off etbs might feel too anti-fun for the format, but come one. If three drop Teferi is legal, you can't use being anti-fun as a reason for banning something. According to EDHrec, Torpor Orb sees play in 1% of decks. Panharmonicon is in 4% of decks. Sheldon's making GBS threads the bed over what isn't a big deal for pretty much any casual table, ever. I see the new Norn getting some play in cEDH where ETBs can be pretty devastating (I'm certainly going to try!), but for casual tables, what is the new Elesh Norn going to be ruining? She's 2 cool niche cards stapled onto the most easily removed permanent type.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:54
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Wittgen posted:I could see where turning off etbs might feel too anti-fun for the format, but come one. If three drop Teferi is legal, you can't use being anti-fun as a reason for banning something. All four of these are EDH-legal. Two of them cost two mana, one costs three. Torpor Orb doesn't even die to creature removal/board wipes! "But those turn off all ETBs, not just your opponents'." Yes, but that's not actually that much of a difference when you know that you're playing it and can decide when it comes down.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:54
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Hell, Elesh Norn isn't even the most devastating praetor from the new batch of them, especially for casual tables. I feel like the new Sheoldred or Vorinclex are way more scary for casual "interaction? what's that?" tables.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:58
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Could the concern be the fact that as a legendary creature, she can start every game in your hand? Looking at those cards does make me think she could be a fun death and taxes commander. I trust the common reaction that this dude's assessment is very bad, to be clear.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:59
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an effect being (repeatedly) accessible via the command zone is a big thing, but frankly that's an argument for having viable commanders that provide you with proactive interaction with the stuff your opponents are doing idk, I've enjoyed commander I've played with people irl and at its core it does seem like a great way to do multiplayer mtg, but the way high level commander people seem to actively encourage cultivation of a scrub mentality and apoplexy at the concept of ever having to interact or being interacted with is extremely offputting
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Dec 22, 2022 20:03
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Wittgen posted:Could the concern be the fact that as a legendary creature, she can start every game in your hand? Looking at those cards does make me think she could be a fun death and taxes commander. Even by that assessment, Sheoldred in particular is way more threatening, as Framboise pointed out. Not to mention that white is generally the worst color in EDH and mono-white decks are notoriously even weaker than that implies.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:03
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Wittgen posted:Could the concern be the fact that as a legendary creature, she can start every game in your hand? Looking at those cards does make me think she could be a fun death and taxes commander. I think she'll be a blast to build around! I've always liked Panharmonicon and have wanted a way to abuse it, but needing the extra step to find the card makes it never make the cut for me. So getting a better one that can be in the command zone is really cool! But she's still a 5 mana creature who is easily removed, so I really don't understand what the concern could really be. The Torpor Orb effect isn't even that worrisome for the vast majority of cases-- but shutting off stuff like Thassa's Oracle, Dockside Extortionist, Gilded Drake, Imperial Recruiter, Recruiter of the Guard, and commanders that are ETB engines/wincons like Godo or Tatyova or Rocco is pretty cool. But that's much more of a cEDH thing than casual, which is the realm from where Sheldon speaks.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:05
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I'd rather play against new Elesh Norn than Jin Gitaxias from NEO because that guy is hard to interact with! Elesh Norn just dies
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Dec 22, 2022 20:06
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LGD posted:idk, I've enjoyed commander I've played with people irl and at its core it does seem like a great way to do multiplayer mtg, but the way high level commander people seem to actively encourage cultivation of a scrub mentality and apoplexy at the concept of ever having to interact or being interacted with is extremely offputting What are you talking about? Not following you here.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:09
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Framboise posted:What are you talking about? Not following you here. It reads to me like he's talking about the dedicated but casual Commander players (i.e. not cEDH) who have expensive decks and powerful cards but do not play interaction, expect nobody else to play interaction, and get super upset if anyone interferes with everyone's goldfishing.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:11
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disaster pastor posted:It reads to me like he's talking about the dedicated but casual Commander players (i.e. not cEDH) who have expensive decks and powerful cards but do not play interaction, expect nobody else to play interaction, and get super upset if anyone interferes with everyone's goldfishing. yeah, sorry if the "high level" caused confusion - I wasn't talking about playskill, I was talking about prominence/promotion + extent to which their views are disseminated, actual cEDH is the antithesis of what I meant and yeah basically that + some of the sentiment towards "stax pieces" which are how you interact effectively in a multiplayer format + some of the associated "dies to doomblade" discourse (i.e. its 'invalidity' as an argument tends to be overstated, if a 1/3 with no protection shuts down your whole gameplan that's on you) the "scrub mentality" thing is in relation to conflicted attitudes towards winning - not saying everyone needs to play to win at any cost, but a lot of the discourse around "rule 0" and limiting things that offend your sensibilities seems to wrap back around into cultivating self-serving myths about "honorable" and "virtuous" playstyles (in lieu of adaptation/getting better)
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Dec 22, 2022 20:23
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Some people use Commander deckbuilding as an expression of identity and for most of them it's not about not playing removal, it's about seeing goodstuff piles that are just 99 of the best cards in the game with zero thematic link, with a 5 color commander the player will never cast that annoys those people
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Dec 22, 2022 21:46
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If you look at sheldon's decks you'll see that for the most part he personally just basically doesn't run any spot removal, yeah. That's the vision of commander that he's talking about Mother of Machines being a "Don't print this card" powerlevel for.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:22
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It just comes off as weird that Sheldon got pissy enough to write an article about how much he doesn't like this card even though it's innocuous in standard and meanwhile cards designed for commander had to get mass banned out of pauper and have the highest win rate in Legacy and shaking up Vintage.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:57
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Yeah they are making cards for the 80% of the playerbase that hates playing interactive games and I think that’s awesome.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:59
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“I get that it’s a main-set card, not in Commander product, and I’ll return to the recognition that not everything has to be designed with Commander in mind. I’ll also point out that it would also be tremendously naïve for a designer/design team to ignore Commander’s existence when designing cards.” Why? Why don’t people just play commander with whatever lists of cards they find acceptable? Why does card design have to keep commander in mind?
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Dec 23, 2022 00:13
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Archon of Emeria is on balance a more hosed up card in every way for the Sheldons of the world and he didn’t write an essay about that. I wonder what the point of this article even is?teppichporsche posted:“I get that it’s a main-set card, not in Commander product, and I’ll return to the recognition that not everything has to be designed with Commander in mind. I’ll also point out that it would also be tremendously naïve for a designer/design team to ignore Commander’s existence when designing cards.” It’s the most popular format and designing for it usually comes at zero cost to any 60-card formats. That being said they print cards that don’t work/do anything in commander all the time (wishes, any aggressive attacking creature). Most of the cards that are pillars of Pioneer are really bad in Commander. What makes all this discourse even more bizarre is this Elesh Norn is obviously a commander card top-to-bottom lol. fadam fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Dec 23, 2022 |
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Dec 23, 2022 00:30
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teppichporsche posted:“I get that it’s a main-set card, not in Commander product, and I’ll return to the recognition that not everything has to be designed with Commander in mind. I’ll also point out that it would also be tremendously naïve for a designer/design team to ignore Commander’s existence when designing cards.” They sell commander products, it's a real format people play kinda the main way to find another person to play with on paper, and they seem to generally design cards considering how it might be in things it can be played in? I would assume the card designers did consider commander when designing this card and themselves like everyone has pointed out, figured it's fine in commander.
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Dec 23, 2022 00:35
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reignonyourparade posted:If you look at sheldon's decks you'll see that for the most part he personally just basically doesn't run any spot removal, yeah. That's the vision of commander that he's talking about Mother of Machines being a "Don't print this card" powerlevel for. In Sheldon's meager defense, 1 for 1 spot removal is fairly bad in 4 player games, as it puts you and your target down a card vs. The other two players. It's still a nessicary evil, however, for when poo poo like Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines hits the table.
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Dec 23, 2022 00:37
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Abhorrence posted:In Sheldon's meager defense, 1 for 1 spot removal is fairly bad in 4 player games, as it puts you and your target down a card vs. The other two players. People just aren't willing to Eat Their Veggies
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Dec 23, 2022 00:37
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Abhorrence posted:In Sheldon's meager defense, 1 for 1 spot removal is fairly bad in 4 player games, as it puts you and your target down a card vs. The other two players. Idk about that, most of the tournament winning CEDH lists run tons of removal spells. I don’t care if two people at the table are technically up a card if I’m clearing a RoL to breach win. I think it’s as important and good as it is in 60 card.
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Dec 23, 2022 00:39
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Abhorrence posted:In Sheldon's meager defense, 1 for 1 spot removal is fairly bad in 4 player games, as it puts you and your target down a card vs. The other two players. poo poo, Force of Will is still 1 for 2 and absolutely great in EDH. Yeah, you can't spot removal EVERYTHING like you try and do in Standard, but when push comes to shove, every good deck is packing 10 pieces or so because it's better than losing.
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Dec 23, 2022 00:39
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Yeah I only started getting into Commander like 8 months ago and I learned pretty quickly that you need as much spot removal as you can get. Cards like Swords and Path are auto-includes in any deck I run that has white because they're so drat useful. Same goes for Assassin's Trophy in Golgari decks and Deadly Rollick/Go For the Throat in black. If you're not running enough spot removal, someone else will run away with the game. In that context, the new Elesh Norn looks powerful because she turns off Dockside and Thoracle, but really she's just a speed bump to those players.
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Dec 23, 2022 00:46
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fadam posted:Idk about that, most of the tournament winning CEDH lists run tons of removal spells. Isn't CEDH 2 player games?
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Dec 23, 2022 00:47
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Charity Porno posted:Isn't CEDH 2 player games? I think there’s a 2 player commander format that’s big in Paris or something but CEDH is just regular EDH where everyone is playing to win. It’s had a bit of a boom recently with a bunch of tournaments (paper and online) with big turn outs happening in 2022 and a lot of content creators from 60-card formats checking it out. Brian Coval (big legacy content creator and tournament grinder) won a huge tournament a few weeks with a deck running lots of stack and board interaction. fadam fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Dec 23, 2022 |
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Dec 23, 2022 00:49
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tbh i think the article is more 'it's dumb to print cards that are good enough to be auto-includes in any commander deck that could run it' and that sentiment i pretty much agree with? i'd much rather have more cards you need to think about putting in instead of cards you'd need a real good excuse to not run (hi, sol ring). he draws a comparison to tatyova benthic druid in which you're rewarded for just doing the things you'd be doing regularly, and the new sheoldred i think is also a good example. the fact that the new elesh norn is extremely easy to splash at 4W is also a big deal -- make her 3WW or even 2WWW and now you need to think about manabases at the very least
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Dec 23, 2022 00:55
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fadam posted:I think there’s a 2 player commander format that’s big in Paris or something but CEDH is just regular EDH where everyone is playing to win. It’s had a bit of a boom recently with a bunch of tournaments (paper and online) with big turn outs happening in 2022 and a lot of content creators from 60-card formats checking it out. Brian Coval (big legacy content creator and tournament grinder) won a huge tournament a few weeks with a deck running lots of stack and board interaction.  They'll come to Canadian Highlander eventually, right?
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Dec 23, 2022 00:57
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flatluigi posted:tbh i think the article is more 'it's dumb to print cards that are good enough to be auto-includes in any commander deck that could run it' and that sentiment i pretty much agree with? i'd much rather have more cards you need to think about putting in instead of cards you'd need a real good excuse to not run (hi, sol ring). he draws a comparison to tatyova benthic druid in which you're rewarded for just doing the things you'd be doing regularly, and the new sheoldred i think is also a good example. the fact that the new elesh norn is extremely easy to splash at 4W is also a big deal -- make her 3WW or even 2WWW and now you need to think about manabases at the very least Does this Elesh belong in any deck that can run it? It's a 5CMC card that doesn't win the game on its own. I don't think it's any more powerful than a ton of expensive, low impact cards they print all the time. You might be right about the mana cost, but I don't think this card is particularly problematic.
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Dec 23, 2022 01:01
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fadam posted:I think there’s a 2 player commander format that’s big in Paris or something but CEDH is just regular EDH where everyone is playing to win. It’s had a bit of a boom recently with a bunch of tournaments (paper and online) with big turn outs happening in 2022 and a lot of content creators from 60-card formats checking it out. Brian Coval (big legacy content creator and tournament grinder) won a huge tournament a few weeks with a deck running lots of stack and board interaction. France loves duel commander
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Dec 23, 2022 01:19
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I haven't played Commander yet, but I'm getting a precon deck with a friend and we'll be checking it out next year. I look forward to having opinions!
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Dec 23, 2022 01:19
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flatluigi posted:tbh i think the article is more 'it's dumb to print cards that are good enough to be auto-includes in any commander deck that could run it' and that sentiment i pretty much agree with? i'd much rather have more cards you need to think about putting in instead of cards you'd need a real good excuse to not run (hi, sol ring). he draws a comparison to tatyova benthic druid in which you're rewarded for just doing the things you'd be doing regularly, and the new sheoldred i think is also a good example. the fact that the new elesh norn is extremely easy to splash at 4W is also a big deal -- make her 3WW or even 2WWW and now you need to think about manabases at the very least Except it's not even an auto-include every deck? Unless your deck is specifically themed around ETB or Landfall or something, you're really only gonna get incidental value out of her, and for 5 mana you can do a lot more than 'incidental value'.
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Dec 23, 2022 01:25
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I would only run her in my white decks because we have one guy who always goes for Thoracle or Dockside loops no matter what power level we're playing in. I don't think I have anything that plays off the ETB doubling, so really she'd just be to stop those combos and also be a nice body on the field. But right now I run old Elesh because she acts as a pseudo-finisher in a lot of ways because I love creature decks and combat damage to win.
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Dec 23, 2022 01:35
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“Every deck will have to run it” is a bad defense in a format where Sol Ring is legal
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Dec 23, 2022 01:37
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Papa Was A Video Toaster posted:
I hope so, Canlander seems like a pretty rad format.
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Dec 23, 2022 01:53
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whydirt posted:“Every deck will have to run it” is a bad defense in a format where Sol Ring is legal I mean imo every 0 and 1 mana rock that makes 2 or more should be banned but since they've crammed Sol Ring in every Commander product since 2012 that ship seems to have sailed
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Dec 23, 2022 02:02
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JawnV6 posted:I haven't played Commander yet, but I'm getting a precon deck with a friend and we'll be checking it out next year. I look forward to having opinions! It’s like processor real mode for magic the gathering I’m sorry to say.
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Dec 23, 2022 02:03
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SCG deleted the article lol
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Dec 23, 2022 03:05
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Paul Zuvella posted:SCG deleted the article lol Naw I think their CDN is just having a moment.
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Dec 23, 2022 03:09
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