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Re: gear chat, it depends on your lifestyle and what you want to do with your kids? I did a ton of babywearing and nursing so we rarely used strollers or took the baby bucket out of the car. For the 2nd kid we just went straight to the convertible car seat and had a hand-me-down whatever stroller because we used it mostly to travel - if we went shopping or to eat or something, I had the kid strapped to my body. Likewise backpack style diaper bags worked better for me because I had a kid on my body. You should have a crib because it’s a safe place to deposit a baby even if they don’t sleep in it much. Bassinet is whatever, nice to have for a couple months if you don’t have room for the crib in your room and it’s important to you that the baby be in your room. Basically - lots of stuff is optional and could make your life easier, but it’s heavily dependent on your lifestyle. IMO buy only the basics (baby bucket car seat because it’s easier to leave the hospital that way; crib; 3 newborn bottles) then wait to see how your life goes. In my area there’s always lots of lightly used baby stuff up for free on buy nothing so that could be a low-risk way to try things too.
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Dec 29, 2022 20:23
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KillHour posted:
There's no guarantees on anything, but my wife was 40 when our daughter was born last summer. My mother was 42 when my youngest brother was born. She is far, far away from her last chance (barring some tragic medical condition popping up, of course).
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Dec 29, 2022 20:32
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Hadlock posted:36 is where fertility begins going down but it's not really until 39 when it starts dropping off fast. PShe can get blood tests and other diagnostics to figure out her fertility level. Assuming no issues sounds like you guys have at least six more years to do family planning. There's rarely ever a perfect time to have kids though. And 9 months is a long time to get your poo poo together. We bought a house and moved before ours arrived This is a good idea for anyone. For instance some women can get pregnant but need supplemental progesterone until the placenta is formed or they're likely to have a miscarriage. Honestly if I have a girl I'm gonna suggest she get screened for all that sort of stuff when she's like 18... doctors are all too happy to say "irregular periods? huh, weird, anyway birth control will fix the symptoms, next patient!" and then you don't find out the underlying problem until you try to have kids 10 years later.
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Dec 29, 2022 21:18
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KillHour posted:It's that 35 mark she's worried about. My "ideal" timeframe is ~2 years from now which would put the second half of the pregnancy in 35. I know it's arbitrary, but the delineation scares her. I had my second baby at 35. She's fine.  I had my first at 32 and the pregnancy was easier physically then, but I don't know how much of that was age and how much was Every Pregnancy Being Different. Do you have any friends who are parents?
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Dec 29, 2022 21:40
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thunderdome winner
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Pham Nuwen posted:This is a good idea for anyone. For instance some women can get pregnant but need supplemental progesterone until the placenta is formed or they're likely to have a miscarriage. Honestly if I have a girl I'm gonna suggest she get screened for all that sort of stuff when she's like 18... doctors are all too happy to say "irregular periods? huh, weird, anyway birth control will fix the symptoms, next patient!" and then you don't find out the underlying problem until you try to have kids 10 years later.  sharkytm posted:Just a point of reference: my wife was 38 when she got pregnant with our son, 39 when he was born. Uterine fibroid surgery 2 years prior. Caught COVID at 8 weeks. Kid is happy and healthy and so is she. They don't even call it a geriatric pregnancy until 35 around here these days. 
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Dec 29, 2022 23:02
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I gave birth to my first 13 days before my 34th birthday, and I'm 35 now and just starting the second trimester with #2. I actually asked my midwife if anything about the treatment would change solely due to "advanced maternal age" and she said no. Insurance might cover some things they didn't before but nothing in the care plan for the pregnancy will be different just because of my age. And regarding fertility and age, ymmv but fwiw it took us 18 months to get pregnant with #1 and then for #2 it happened the first cycle we were trying.
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Dec 30, 2022 00:05
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I was 36 when our first kid was born, conceived after only a few months of trying. I had a wholly uneventful pregnancy until preeclampsia emerged in week 37, and we now have a healthy and adorable lil munchkin. Meanwhile my sister started trying at 32 and went through several failed rounds of IVF (though thankfully she now has two kids). Everyone's different 
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Dec 30, 2022 00:50
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Regarding conception while partying: In the first few weeks, the product of conception is largely protected from its environment because of its yolk sac, and the blastocyst doesn’t even implant into the uterus until week 4-5. Once it is implanted it will start to form a blood connection, and the placenta starts to take over circulation at week 10-ish. Regarding pro choice when you’re not raised that way: I was raised in a strongly pro choice house, and I am a firm supporter of bodily autonomy, I’ve even participated in fundraising events for our local clinic. If I ever accidentally got pregnant from consensual sex, I’m not sure if I could get an abortion for myself if it was a viable pregnancy. Everyone is different, everyone’s beliefs are different, and it’s so personal. An abortion in the early weeks is not anything like the pictures that pro life people use to scare and disgust people. In the early weeks it’s just a cluster of cells that are organizing themselves. A tiny fetal heart is still basically just some cells with electrical activity. Echoing that there’s no real perfect time to have a baby, and the span of a pregnancy is a long time to get things together. You can do a lot in what amounts to almost a year. Finally, regarding the $500 pill, that’s a lot of money, but it could be similar to or significantly less than the cost of an abortion. If you
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Dec 30, 2022 13:58
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Had the 12 week scan. It went well, though the little bean was uncooperative and they made me go on multiple walks to get him to move, heh. I blame poor parenting  I've now told my siblings, it's nice not having to keep quiet about this from them anymore.
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Dec 30, 2022 22:52
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Baby Penelope was born at 8 this morning. 1 pound 1 ounce, 11.5 inches long. She's in the NICU now and will be there for several months, since she was born at 25 weeks. Mom is doing well - all preeclampsia symptoms cease upon delivery thank goodness.
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Dec 31, 2022 00:20
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Oh drat, congrats and good luck.
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Dec 31, 2022 01:27
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Just to add more anectodal data points about ages, we're having our first soon; my wife is 44. Pretty much a picture perfect pregnancy so far. Her sister is 42 and is pregnant with her second kid. She had her first 2 years ago, no issues either.Mr. Wiggles posted:Baby Penelope was born at 8 this morning. 1 pound 1 ounce, 11.5 inches long. She's in the NICU now and will be there for several months, since she was born at 25 weeks. Mom is doing well - all preeclampsia symptoms cease upon delivery thank goodness. Congrats and good luck, that is a beautiful name. It was on my list for our daughter (we chose something else though).
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Dec 31, 2022 01:58
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Also small tip for gearchat: we got a pack and play for our first, which is a generally useful thing to have through 2 years old (so far: naps at grandparents, traveling) and we used that as our bassinet in our room until 6 months, even though we had an assembled crib in her room. Starting at 4 months, we’d put her down for naps in her proper crib so she could get used to it, and then phased in nighttime sleep there. Seemed to work pretty well for us.
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Dec 31, 2022 02:11
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Oh wow, congratulations!
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Dec 31, 2022 08:06
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Baby Penelope was born at 8 this morning. 1 pound 1 ounce, 11.5 inches long. She's in the NICU now and will be there for several months, since she was born at 25 weeks. Mom is doing well - all preeclampsia symptoms cease upon delivery thank goodness. I'll keep baby Penelope in our thoughts. Congrats!
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Dec 31, 2022 13:58
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I'm nearing the end of my first trimester with my second kid and really appreciating how different each pregnancy is. Instead of having a gag reflex so bad I have trouble flossing, I have gnarly motion sickness instead (which is wild because I've never had motion sickness in my entire life). Bodies are super weird! My first kid was a scheduled C-section breech baby that, to be perfectly honest, was a fantastic delivery - 13 minutes total, civilized, everyone recovered great, I felt 100% just a couple weeks later. I'm not in my 20s anymore though so I can't really expect a repeat of that. I'm planning to try for a VBAC this time around. Anyone in the thread had one, and how would you rate labor post-cesarean for someone who's never been in labor? My care team is telling me there are a lot of induction options even if I cook too long (my siblings were both born at 44 weeks - my family's babies are served well done). The one thing I really don't want is a shitshow of a long, painful labor leading back to a C-section that could have been scheduled in advance like my first delivery. How do I avoid that?
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Jan 2, 2023 05:37
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Baby Penelope was born at 8 this morning. 1 pound 1 ounce, 11.5 inches long. She's in the NICU now and will be there for several months, since she was born at 25 weeks. Mom is doing well - all preeclampsia symptoms cease upon delivery thank goodness. Congrats and good luck! take me to the beaver posted:I'm nearing the end of my first trimester with my second kid and really appreciating how different each pregnancy is. Instead of having a gag reflex so bad I have trouble flossing, I have gnarly motion sickness instead (which is wild because I've never had motion sickness in my entire life). Bodies are super weird! Tell me about it, first time around I mainly wanted to eat fresh fruit and veggies, almost to the exclusion of all else, this time around I've gone off broccoli and hummus. I still eat both to spite the little bean. Or at least, I ate hummus until someone told me it's on the listeria-risk foods because of the tahini in it. We told a bunch of our social circle after getting the 12 week scan recently. Most of our friends have no interest in children, so I was fine with a basic "oh, congrats" and the conversation moving on, but I was not prepared for so many to immediately ask if it was planned. While I get that it's coz people are surprised... Yikes. froglet fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jan 2, 2023 |
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Jan 2, 2023 16:38
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I didn't know that about hummus, I guess I shouldn't have made my wife several hummus wraps a couple weeks ago. Although she didn't get sick so no harm done.froglet posted:We told a bunch of our social circle after getting the 12 week scan recently. Most of our friends have no interest in children, so I was fine with a basic "oh, congrats" and the conversation moving on, but I was not not prepared for so many to immediately ask if it was planned. While I get that it's coz people are surprised... Yikes. I don't think anyone asked us if it was planned, but my father in law immediately asked us if we were going to have a second child after this first one.
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Jan 2, 2023 18:50
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take me to the beaver posted:My care team is telling me there are a lot of induction options even if I cook too long (my siblings were both born at 44 weeks - my family's babies are served well done). The one thing I really don't want is a shitshow of a long, painful labor leading back to a C-section that could have been scheduled in advance like my first delivery. How do I avoid that? Honestly you kind of can't. I consider myself fairly forthright about managing and advocating for my own healthcare and it still managed to happen. An ultrasound on arrival to check positioning maybe? You've basically described my second labour (except my first was a vaginal delivery) and it wasn't until I lay down for the emergency c-section that the midwife was like "Oh! Look at the shape of your belly. She's posterior. That'd do it!" I don't have the experience of having had a scheduled C-section to compare with; but the emergency c-section really knocked me on my backside on the top of an exhausting and painful labour with minimal pain relief. I checked myself out of hospital in 3 days but it was weeks before I was functional
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Jan 4, 2023 08:48
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take me to the beaver posted:The one thing I really don't want is a shitshow of a long, painful labor leading back to a C-section that could have been scheduled in advance like my first delivery. How do I avoid that? Unfortunately a scheduled c-section is your only certain way to avoid that. If you want to try for a VBAC it could really go any which way.
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Jan 4, 2023 09:14
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Yeah even writing it I was just like, well poo poo. Well, that's life, isn't it. I'm going to keep my eyes open and take in more information as we get closer to the actual event. Right now I'd like to shoot for a VBAC just because it seems like the recovery will be smoother and the likelihood of things going tits up seems fairly minimal. Also some irrational part of me wants to know what labor is like. For people in the same boat as me with a breech baby that just won't turn, my scheduled C-section was really awesome - it was quick, my pain was well controlled by acetaminophen and ibuprofen, and my baby was super healthy. They tried an external version that didn't work (they gave me fentanyl, I cheered them on while they tried unsuccessfully to turn the baby as she punched the doc while hiding behind my ribs), so this was my only option. I definitely felt very upset and left out at the time, especially when my prenatal group was sharing their birth stories, but now I see that things actually went great and I was safe and cared for. Griping about not experiencing some of the worst pain in the world is some extremely privileged poo poo! take me to the beaver fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jan 4, 2023 |
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Jan 4, 2023 17:13
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Sigh. So I've had some ongoing anxiety I've been working on in therapy, and it seems like all the hormones have dialled that up to 11. It's not that there was anything particularly new in the melting pot of angst, it's that it drowned out everything else to the point I nearly avoided Christmas with my family. I feel mostly okay now, but the worry is that it may happen again. So my GP's referred me to a maternity mental health unit and I've started some medication. I know it's going to be okay, and the medication is safe for the little bean, aaand yet it still sucks (having such a setback after making so much progress over the past couple of years seems totally unfair, dammit  ). However, it stung a bit less when the GP asked me if there had been any stressors in the past year and I was suddenly reminded that yes, I have, I just hadn't written them down in a list like she was writing, so I suppose all this isn't too surprising.
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Jan 4, 2023 17:58
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froglet posted:Sigh. So I've had some ongoing anxiety I've been working on in therapy, and it seems like all the hormones have dialled that up to 11. It's not that there was anything particularly new in the melting pot of angst, it's that it drowned out everything else to the point I nearly avoided Christmas with my family. Good for you for getting help... Keep on keeping on... I think I have the flu (test results coming back today) and I'm so miserable. Body aches, constant shivering, so exhausted. (Yes I got the flu shot.) Send calm podcasts/YouTubes, please?
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Jan 8, 2023 17:12
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Things I can now not recommend scheduling for the third trimester: Moving! It sucks!
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Jan 11, 2023 12:42
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Nearly two months after giving birth and I've had a weird foul odor coming from my vag for weeks now. No other symptoms, no itching, abnormal discharge or anything. At my six week checkup she took a culture and nothing resulted from it. My friend said it happened to her too and eventually went away. Anyone else?
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Jan 17, 2023 15:49
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Sorry if it's been asked before, but what are the most recent recommendations for COVID boosters for pregnant women? We'll ask our doctor but I'm concerned about them being too cautious about a vaccine but not cautious enough about potential COVID complications. On the other hand I had an old friend turned conspiracy theorist who was telling me about a case of a woman in her 8 month losing the baby after a COVID vaccine. I don't talk to him anymore but the thought of the possibility alone gives you pause
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Jan 22, 2023 19:24
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Somaen posted:Sorry if it's been asked before, but what are the most recent recommendations for COVID boosters for pregnant women? My wife’s OB had her get the bivalent booster slightly ahead of schedule. We got it in August, I think she was in week 22 and they said normally they’d wait until 24 or 28 (I can’t recall) but to just get it early.
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Jan 22, 2023 19:38
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Yes get a booster! Pregnancy makes you more susceptible to bad complications from COVID, and respiratory illnesses in general. Also, getting the vaccine while pregnant can pass antibodies to the fetus, which can help protect them from the moment they are born.
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Jan 22, 2023 21:50
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I got the bivalent booster a few weeks before I got pregnant this time, and I'm probably going to ask if I should get another at my next appointment in a few weeks, either then or maybe closer to the end. I'm at 17 weeks now, and if it's feasible I'd like to get the baby some protection too since she won't be eligible until 6 months. With my first pregnancy, in my area, the vaccines were made available to non-senior adults with health conditions (including pregnancy) right at the end of my first trimester, so I jumped on that. That reminds me I should probably also ask the toddler's pediatrician about a bivalent booster for her.
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Jan 23, 2023 02:36
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Thanks for sharing, yes definitely taking one. We're starting our second trimester and hopefully it's recommended to take now without having wait for the third to start
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Jan 23, 2023 09:00
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So what's the story with getting insurance reimbursement for a breast pump in California? My wife was looking at https://health.babylist.com/ but there's so much scamminess around "company promises they'll work with insurance/Medicare to get your health devices" that I wanted to check in with people who've actually done it.
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Jan 23, 2023 18:49
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Pham Nuwen posted:So what's the story with getting insurance reimbursement for a breast pump in California? My wife was looking at https://health.babylist.com/ but there's so much scamminess around "company promises they'll work with insurance/Medicare to get your health devices" that I wanted to check in with people who've actually done it. I don't know about California specifically, but I'd ask your insurance company. For my first, mine had a few vendors they work with, and they sent me links and the info so that I could just order the pump and the company billed insurance, no reimbursement necessary.
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Jan 23, 2023 19:38
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If getting a hold of you health insurance's customer service is a pain, you could also ask her obgyn at her next appointment. I'm in NJ, and there was some sort of form that a lactation counselor was kind enough to fill out for me shortly after I gave birth.
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Jan 23, 2023 21:39
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Somaen posted:Thanks for sharing, yes definitely taking one. We're starting our second trimester and hopefully it's recommended to take now without having wait for the third to start Yeah, the biggest benefit is getting it in the third trimester but if you have to decide between waiting and the booster I think it’s generally better to just get it. Also, if you do happen to get COVID paxalovid is safe and recommended during pregnancy.
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Jan 23, 2023 22:33
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Koivunen posted:Yes get a booster! Pregnancy makes you more susceptible to bad complications from COVID, and respiratory illnesses in general. Also, getting the vaccine while pregnant can pass antibodies to the fetus, which can help protect them from the moment they are born. The one thing I'm still confused about is how efficacy of the vaccine goes down over time, yet in my country I'm not eligible for extra boosters while pregnant - even if you last received a booster over a year before your due date. El Mero Mero posted:Yeah, the biggest benefit is getting it in the third trimester but if you have to decide between waiting and the booster I think it’s generally better to just get it. Also, if you do happen to get COVID paxalovid is safe and recommended during pregnancy. Meanwhile, this is comforting! Anyway. I recently found out the hard way that my prenatal vitamins make me violently throw up if I take them without food.  I'm on holiday in New Zealand, and I'm really glad we're doing this trip now. Second trimester means I feel way better, if still super bloated. Also, hard to feel anxious when you're off doing tourist-y things. Hoping this break is a circuit breaker for all the stuff that hormones exacerbated!
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Jan 24, 2023 06:44
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4 weeks to go and the baby is breech. Wife is doing the ice and flashlight combo, along with a good amount of stretching every night. Are there any other tips to get that baby to flip? The OB scheduled the c-section that we’d really like to avoid
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Jan 24, 2023 21:29
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I found these exercises to be really useful when I needed to move my son into position. He was cocked sideways and wouldn’t engage, and then after a week of doing the circuit… he did. https://www.spinningbabies.com/pregnancy-birth/baby-position/breech/flip-a-breech/
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Jan 25, 2023 05:28
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Hey all! Just chiming in cause I was looking for this thread- remembered seeing it years ago and always love to try and learn about other people's experiences with this thing called making babies! I'll share our situation so far- both 37yo, and currently 19 weeks (20wk ultrasound is Monday!  )I'm going to share purely our experience and the data from it- for clarity, I'm not making a statement or trying to convince people about the Covid vax. I'm a supporter of vaccines in general, and we've both been double vaxxed and boosted. For me, personally, the 3 was enough, but I entirely support and completely understand other people's choices as well as the need for protection for immunocompromised pregnant women. 12/6/21 my wife had a positive pregnancy test and we pretty much can narrow down the day because we had sex one time during her ovulation window around 3ish weeks earlier (she had a tracker she used). Because of covid lengthened wait times at that point as well as the fact that she was still super early (date of last day of last period was I believe 11/3/21) we couldn't get an appointment until around 1/19/22, at which point she would have been roughly 10 weeks based on the last day of last period. On 12/22/22 we went to get boosted before heading home to California on 12/24 for Christmas. On 1/19/22 she was diagnosed with a blighted ovum miscarriage (no fetal heartbeat/pole) with an estimate of 6 weeks and 4 days at the time of loss based on size of the sac. This was confirmed a couple days later with the advanced ultrasound. D&C took place on 1/26/22. My wife was 36 at the time, so we're higher risk for miscarriages, complications, etc. We did the Natera post D&C analysis for genetic abnormalities on both of us and the only low risk thing we shared was colorblindness. There are a ton of variables, to be sure- age being a big multiplier of the odds of miscarriage early on especially/rejection because of fetal issues etc- but for us, the timing of that was a bit of a shock, because it almost perfectly lined up with the booster and also the fact that the shot was fresh in our minds after I'd had a reaction known as "covid arm" which the doctors kinda shrugged at me when I went in with a tennis ball sized lump near the point of injection that stayed there for around 3 weeks. Essentially, they said "we don't know why this happens but you should be fine." June 2022 she took a pregnancy test after being about a week late on her period and tested positive for being pregnant again. About 4 days later she had a super, super heavy period. We're now 19 weeks and 2 days into our 3rd attempt, with the results of the Natera test taken at 12 weeks showing low risk for abnormalities across the board as well as it being a boy. We're ecstatic. Oddly enough, the flu vax was supposed to be higher risk during the first trimester I believe her doctor said, but during a routine visit in Sept of 22, after divulging that we were actively trying, her doc gave her a pregnancy test (negative) and loaded her up with the flu vax, pneumonia vax, and boosters that she was behind on. After missing her period a few days later, she tested positive for being pregnant but we now know she was actively making a baby when she got all those shots at once, and the doctor had stressed that it wasn't necessarily the best to get a flu shot before the first trimester, so ymmv  She hasn't gotten the omnicron booster yet. I think she's trying to hold off until the 3rd trimester, but I support her decision and haven't at all tried to steer her in any particular direction, because while I personally won't be getting another booster based off of my own experience, I absolutely want her to do what's best for her immunocompromised self and trust her doctor to steer her right. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I ever tried to steer her a particular direction and it ended up causing her harm, so I tell her that I support her decision 100% and whatever she and her doctor decide, I'm all in. She did have a moderate case of Influenza B (testing positive on 12/22/22) which sidelined us for our 10 day cruise we were supposed to take as a final hurrah over Xmas/New years. I'm convinced the flu vax is solid this year because while she tested positive, I never once had symptoms and neither did any of her vaxxed coworkers, and her case wasn't nearly as bad as illnesses that she has had in the past, but it was enough to slow her down for about 10 days. So here we are on our 3rd try. It's been a rollercoaster of a year, for sure. We went through a ton of trials and tribulations as a couple, but we fought through our problems, talked through our problems, and worked through our problems, and it certainly wasn't easy, but absolutely worth it. I want to stress that while I was raised in the more old fashioned "man's man" kind of way, going through what we've been through reinforced the need for men to be able to talk. Typically, I dont really like to, I internalize. My wife is the polar opposite. Having great friends and a support network really helped a ton, and taking the time to see through the hormonal emotional outbursts that weren't reflective of my wife and understanding that that wasn't really her, in that moment, and having some patience (I believe) helped save our marriage. Additionally, I'll always appreciate how she incorporated my feelings into it as well, and that it wasn't entirely one way, because I think most people tend to overlook how bad men hurt too. She made me feel valued and heard, which was all I could ask for and, in turn, made me want to be the best partner I could, understanding how selfless that was of her in the moment given all of the feelings and added hormones she had coursing through her. We talked about how she was worried that this was it, our only chance, and that she was convinced now that she couldn't have kids and that her window had passed, or that she was broken. I did my best to stress to her that that wasn't the case, but thankfully her doctor put it well and pointed out that "it wasn't that you weren't able to get pregnant- clearly you were! The sperm and egg were able to meet and fertilize. This may have just been your body naturally rejecting an imperfect pregnancy. There are a lot of reasons why pregnancies don't necessarily always work out, but you're far from 'broken' and I'd recommend trying again once you feel better and after a few cycles have passed, if you decide that's what you want to do!" The 2nd miscarriage wasn't as jarring as the 1st, but we'd talked about how we felt we wanted to do things if it happened again. She said that this was the last time she wanted to try because of how terrible she'd felt both physically and mentally, and we agreed that if we were unable to conceive naturally after the 3rd try, that we would absolutely consider adoption. I'll never, ever forget our excitement at the first ultrasound this time around. Both of us were terrified going in, ecstatic walking out. We have the at home Doppler so we can do telepointments later on down the road and we check in on our son to hear his heartbeat every few days for a few seconds. I've gotten super good at this and can find him almost immediately now! We try not to do it too often, but it's hard not to. Also, my wife thinks she may have felt her first kick today, though she's not sure. She said it felt almost like a hunger pang met a gas bubble. She had eaten earlier and wasn't hungry though. I'm not a religious man, but I most certainly have been praying for the health and well being of my wife and our (hopefully!) soon to be born son, and I'll continue to do so. TheKevman fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 09:28
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TheKevman posted:We have the at home Doppler so we can do telepointments later on down the road and we check in on our son to hear his heartbeat every few days for a few seconds. I've gotten super good at this and can find him almost immediately now! We try not to do it too often, but it's hard not to. Just be aware with these that it's very easy to misinterpret what may sound like a foetal heartbeat. These also will pick up the 'beat' of placental blood flow and also your wife's own uterine arteries.
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Jan 26, 2023 07:58
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Tamarillo posted:Just be aware with these that it's very easy to misinterpret what may sound like a foetal heartbeat. These also will pick up the 'beat' of placental blood flow and also your wife's own uterine arteries. Yeah, the first few times I struggled but with the coaching from the midwife I think I've got it down now. But great points because it definitely can be misleading at times.
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Jan 26, 2023 08:29
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