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Yeah and r/noveltranslations is fairly popular, I guess it's somewhat surprising there isn't really an equivalent for western web serials on Reddit that's actually used.
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Feb 13, 2023 08:24
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KittenJucerSupreme posted:I deserve poo poo for it, but I honestly just didn't know where else to start posting or what to say. I swear I'm here to be continually made fun of for bad posts and not just the one where I fail to actually pitch a web serial, and I'll probably go back to lurking since this wasn't well received. But yeah, the first post said linking was fine so I assumed this was a flogging-friendly thread. Who's the protagonist, though? Like, okay, there's some big ideas and stuff, but what's the immediate hook? Worm, for example: Taylor Hebert is an imminent school shooter with bug powers who goes out, fights a dragon-man, and gets mistaken for a supervillain. If I skim through the first chapter, what's a reader going to get out of it? As someone who read bits of Prairie Song a while back, it's in the spate of web serials I read years ago where I genuinely don't remember anything about them. I feel my eyes just sliding off that paragraph, there's nothing for my brain to grab onto, and it feels like a lot of what you say is either contradictory or repetitive. I'm saying this both as a writer and pedantic critic, but also someone whose biggest structural issue with their own web serial was lack of a sharp hook and an inability to sum it up in a few sentences beyond that sort of conceptual chatter. But more on this topic... soon. I get that it's not your story, but still! Bremen posted:I've always been kind of surprised there isn't a subreddit for webserials or something. I know there's one for progression fics but that's really just a subgenre, even if it's a big one. (edit: Looks like there is but it's a small one that I don't remember finding before) I'd say there is honestly a desire for a good web serial discussion place, but the general attempts at doing so have never gone anywhere. The drama that resulted from an effort of cloning and modernizing WebFictionGuide under new management was a real kick to the gut for a lot of the people who wanted to do something like it. It's a shame because the effort looked great and felt like it was really going somewhere until the WFG admin decided to backflip on it. I feel like there's been a few attempted general web serial subreddits, at least back when I was paying more attention, but they just never hit a critical mass of users. And the new TopWebFiction, blegh. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 08:57
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Plorkyeran posted:The funniest part of that has always been people posting that and then talking about how good Worm is five minutes later, which notably is a story driven by the main character making a bad decision due to emotions in every single chapter. But see, Taylor is someone who completely ignores the emotional reality surrounding her actions. Whether it is her own emotional needs driving her actions or the understandable emotional fallout from them, Taylor always ignores it. She constantly calculates what would be "rational" to do. Could there be anything more r/rational than using rationality as a tool to justify super emotional conclusions?
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Feb 13, 2023 13:53
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Feb 13, 2023 14:15
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90s Cringe Rock posted:
Which is more or less the practice of using "rationalism" to pretend your own emotional responses are actually purely logical, so that tracks.
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Feb 13, 2023 15:04
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Wittgen posted:But see, Taylor is someone who completely ignores the emotional reality surrounding her actions. Whether it is her own emotional needs driving her actions or the understandable emotional fallout from them, Taylor always ignores it. She constantly calculates what would be "rational" to do. Could there be anything more r/rational than using rationality as a tool to justify super emotional conclusions? Yeah, the funny thing about that is that Taylor is a very accurate depiction of the reality of what these people consider "rational" and how they think of themselves. Rational is when you think everything you want to do is logical!
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Feb 14, 2023 03:42
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What ratfic readers want is characters who laboriously narrate their perspective and decision making, because they don't understand subtext.
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Feb 14, 2023 05:33
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mossyfisk posted:What ratfic readers want is characters who laboriously narrate their perspective and decision making, because they don't understand subtext.
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Feb 14, 2023 14:36
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Cicero posted:Yeah and r/noveltranslations is fairly popular, I guess it's somewhat surprising there isn't really an equivalent for western web serials on Reddit that's actually used. Japanese/Korean Web Novels might actually get a professionally edited version, manga and even an anime, but very few western web novels even get professionally edited. Western web novels just don't have any reach. Also, web novels needing to be translated generates a lot of discussion too.
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Feb 14, 2023 17:48
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mossyfisk posted:What ratfic readers want is characters who laboriously narrate their perspective and decision making If first person, yes, but not because I don't understand subtext, it's because otherwise it feels like the characters don't have an inner life at all. If not first person, also yes, because then it removes from the author an opportunity to cheat by not describing plans. (Obviously rationalist fiction is vastly superior to all other fiction for many other reasons as well)
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Feb 14, 2023 21:59
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a web serial about being a rat
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Feb 14, 2023 23:08
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Lunatic Sledge posted:a web serial about being a rat Surely there are already some. There's a web serial about being a rock. And one about a roomba. LLSix fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Feb 15, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 23:21
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I mean I have a web serial where the main character is a mouse.
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Feb 15, 2023 03:45
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IShallRiseAgain posted:Japanese/Korean Web Novels might actually get a professionally edited version, manga and even an anime, but very few western web novels even get professionally edited. Western web novels just don't have any reach. Also, web novels needing to be translated generates a lot of discussion too. There are several subreddits that mainly discuss Western web novels, though, so this can't be the explanation. It's unsatisfying but I think it really just does come down to chance; it just so happened that no single community space developed.
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Feb 15, 2023 03:49
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nrook posted:There are several subreddits that mainly discuss Western web novels, though, so this can't be the explanation. It's unsatisfying but I think it really just does come down to chance; it just so happened that no single community space developed. Translated web novels and light novels based on web novels got big long before english ones took off, so most places for discussing them tend to have more readers. Give it 5 years and they'll probably have similar numbers. I mean, even Royal Road was originally a spot for Moonlight Sculptor fan fiction.
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Feb 15, 2023 08:09
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I know there's probably no strict answer to these questions, but I'm curious -- what makes a good litrpg, SA web serial thread, and what makes a bad one?
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Feb 15, 2023 09:43
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it needs to have at least a little sense of humour even if it's all cosmic horror and/or grim darkness poo poo especially if this doesn't mean quips also it should be queer
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Feb 15, 2023 10:03
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I'm really not sure the answer to "what makes a good litrpg" lies in the litrpg elements, although I suppose bad blue boxes can ruin something otherwise good
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Feb 15, 2023 10:04
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Prose that doesn't make you want to claw your eyes out is where the vast majority fail.
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Feb 15, 2023 11:10
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90s Cringe Rock posted:it needs to have at least a little sense of humour even if it's all cosmic horror and/or grim darkness poo poo lady making positive face: QUeer
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Feb 15, 2023 12:51
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I know there's probably no strict answer to these questions, but I'm curious -- what makes a good litrpg, SA web serial thread, and what makes a bad one? Do you want a good story or a popular LitRPG? Pick one. But for reals, a good LitRPG in my eyes is one that uses the LitRPG mechanics as more than a vaugely crunchy magic system.
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Feb 15, 2023 13:31
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I like Delve as a ratfic. Its well written and very crunchy but you can skip the crunch and still get it. Also the system is a part of something greater.
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Feb 15, 2023 13:37
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I know there's probably no strict answer to these questions, but I'm curious -- what makes a good litrpg, SA web serial thread, and what makes a bad one? The Wandering Inn is a good example of how to use litrpg story mechanics in a way that doesn't suck rear end.
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Feb 15, 2023 14:56
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Affi posted:I like Delve as a ratfic. 1) spent months on some poo poo nobody cares about (repairing the paling) 2) dropped a throwaway detail that is 10x more interesting than the plot and left it there (I want to read about the Roman isekai from before the lost golden age of magic that is so ruined that they barely saw SPQR on temples dammit)
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Feb 15, 2023 15:06
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I think there is a big split in LitRPG mechanics between the pen and paper RPG stuff, i.e. all those "chose our own adventure" type forum serials, and the more modern serial. Video games quantize core ideas and mechanics through sheer necessity; it would be combinatorically explosive to just have a big graph that keeps track of tons and tons of minor changes. Pen and paper roleplaying books + forum serials use RPG mechanics for much the same purpose as video games. LitRPG's on the other hand do NOT have the same constraints as video games (their is exactly 1 path), and you don't need quantification as an abstraction. So as a literary device, the blue boxes of doom are serving a novel purpose compared to the mediums they are adapting the technique from. Which is interesting! Unfortunately, a core use case for blue boxes is to sandpaper over bad prose, turning a sentence about combat into "Gary took 20 points of damage from the sword attack". As a literary device, blue boxes and hit points are compelling for first time authors as it lets them write about ideas they might lack the skills to effectively describe, and the majority of RR stuff is by new authors, so LitRPG literary devices are strongly associated with mediocre prose and poor plotting. That said, I think competent writers can and do do interesting things with the genre. For example, Quill&Still is decent, and uses LitRPG devices sparingly to good effect (so sparingly that people complain about false advertising lmao). Rob Filter fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Feb 16, 2023 |
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Feb 15, 2023 16:43
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People also complain about Quill & Still surprising them by revealing that the protagonist is trans, so lol.
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Feb 15, 2023 16:46
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90s Cringe Rock posted:People also complain about Quill & Still surprising them by revealing that the protagonist is trans, so lol. Subtext is hard to understand, why not just have a box that explains everything instead! Honestly I think that is why a bunch of random stuff seems to be everywhere in Web Fiction, makes the story easier or just simplifies something.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:05
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in general imo the biggest sin any web serial can make is being written as a web serial. what i mean by that is being written intentionally with no ending or overall framework in mind. sometimes this is done more or less effectively- the crappier authors have stories where you can almost see the exact sentence where the plot will change and stuff. the better ones hide it better but after a hundred chapters you'll realize absolutely nothing significant has changed and feel like you want your money back. i don't care if what you're writing is going to be a 40 volume series that's moved so far past doorstopper its more like a foundation cracker, as long as there's an actual structure and an ending on the horizon it's fine. when you write it to be endless, no matter how talented you are, it feels like watching a bad network TV show.
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Feb 16, 2023 00:22
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cultureulterior posted:If first person, yes, but not because I don't understand subtext, it's because otherwise it feels like the characters don't have an inner life at all. One of the things which made it work in Worm was that Taylor is the queen of lying to herself. She would laboriously explain why she thought she was doing things and then you as the reader could go "oh honey, they aren't bullies; you're just projecting your trauma onto people". Without that mismatch it's a lot less interesting.
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Feb 16, 2023 01:02
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DACK FAYDEN posted:delve committed the two cardinal sins of litrpgs Is Delve finally done with that paling poo poo? Being incredibly bored with that plot line was one of the main reasons I stopped reading it.
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Feb 16, 2023 01:03
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Nah an aimless thing can lose steam but at least the start can be worth reading. The worst sin is to exposition dump hard at the very start. I don't give a poo poo about the worldbuilding until I'm hooked. If the story starts with a text tutorial for the mechanics of their LitRPG, ain't no way am I going to read that crap. Text tutorials are boring enough in real games that I already want to play and where I'm the one playing, they're trying to get me to go through a comprehensive tutorial before starting a story?! Introduce me to the characters first, get me invested in their journey, and only then give deeper descriptions of the mechanics as they become relevant. Closely followed by reading like an MMO combat log. I can enjoy some number-go-up but only when woven into good prose. If evocative description is replaced with ability names, hp values, and kill notifications then I'm out. Overall, I think good LitRPGs use mechanics in service of enhancing a story that would stand on it's own. They don't add elements because it's a common genre trope but carefully consider what each LitRPG idea they introduce adds to the story and use them in service of theme. They'll explore the ramifications of the game physics while preserving verisimilitude, creating interesting situations and concepts for their characters to experience as a result. Popular LitRPGs heavily lean into number-go-up and use that to drive pacing and continued interest across updates. Bad LitRPGs (most of them) get lost in the sauce. They privilege describing mechanics over character, poetry, and prose. They employ the same tired tropes (instanced dungeons! with dungeon breaks!) that make their lineage of wish fulfillment MMO fanfic clear, often including having the MC "cleverly" break the system that they themselves defined with flaws in order to justify the MC being a Mary Sue. They don't have anything to say, they're just an account of what happens. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Feb 16, 2023 |
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Feb 16, 2023 01:27
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oh God infodumping lol. You know I tried really, really hard to like Delve. But none of that endless math explanation or meditating in a cave or whatever ever goes anywhere. It's pointless! It's a story that could have been like 30 chapters but ballooned to hundreds.
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Feb 16, 2023 01:54
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Plorkyeran posted:Is Delve finally done with that paling poo poo? Being incredibly bored with that plot line was one of the main reasons I stopped reading it.
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Feb 16, 2023 01:57
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:Nah an aimless thing can lose steam but at least the start can be worth reading. So I'll confess, I committed this sin. But I did it in the context of a secondary goal to other things I wanted to show - the setting, history, culture, a bunch of other stuff. Also, I wanted to do something I'd *never* seen a litRPG do - how does a world with a System teach their kids about it? "Yes, welcome, you're all going to get fantastical magic powers" - how does society teach that to kids? Also, when a story is someone's first litRPG, setting the foundation is important IMO.
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Feb 16, 2023 02:11
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Plorkyeran posted:Is Delve finally done with that paling poo poo? Being incredibly bored with that plot line was one of the main reasons I stopped reading it. It's at least moved to a background for a while. Taking that sort of detour when you're on a 3 chapters every 4 weeks schedule is pretty tough to push through as a reader. There's a lot of interesting things about Delve but I checked in late last year and the conflict that causes the MC to leave the first city around chapter 114 is still the primary driver of the narrative despite almost nothing happening on that front well over 2 realtime years later.
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Feb 16, 2023 02:26
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I know there's probably no strict answer to these questions, but I'm curious -- what makes a good litrpg, SA web serial thread, and what makes a bad one? There are handful of good ones, but they were made when there wasn't a bajillion LitRPGs out there already and they mostly just make the LitRPG elements barely part of the story. The vast overwhelming majority are absolute trash, even if you take Sturgeon's law into account. Even the subversions and deconstructions have been done to death at this point.
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Feb 16, 2023 02:42
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Larry Parrish posted:oh God infodumping lol. You know I tried really, really hard to like Delve. But none of that endless math explanation or meditating in a cave or whatever ever goes anywhere. It's pointless! It's a story that could have been like 30 chapters but ballooned to hundreds. i agree completely. delve has taken a tight, interesting fantasy premise that in better circumstances would take up maybe two moderately sized volumes so far, and ballooned it out into years of pointless writing. the story was at its best at the very start when every chapter was about something and contained plot events that moved things forward. i don't even feel like i know the characters better because of the volume of words expended, the way you might after a sort-of-pointless-but-interesting chapter of the wandering inn. tallheart hasn't done anything cool in a million years! that's hosed up! uh anyway litrpgs can be good if they're doing something actually interesting with the system, but also not making the system the entire story. which disqualifies most of them from being good
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Feb 16, 2023 02:53
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IShallRiseAgain posted:Even the subversions and deconstructions have been done to death at this point. I think I've argued this point in this thread before but LitRPG deconstructions barely even make sense as a concept. You can't take apart litrpg tropes and show how they wouldn't work that way in real life because that's what litrpgs already are. The starting point of the genre was taking game mechanics, applying them to a story, and showing what happens, even if "what happens" is apparently often "the main character becomes really cool and powerful".
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Feb 16, 2023 03:11
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Selkie Myth posted:So I'll confess, I committed this sin. But I did it in the context of a secondary goal to other things I wanted to show - the setting, history, culture, a bunch of other stuff. Also, I wanted to do something I'd *never* seen a litRPG do - how does a world with a System teach their kids about it? "Yes, welcome, you're all going to get fantastical magic powers" - how does society teach that to kids? I appreciate you trying to do the start of creation, which you explained well with why you did the timeskip. Still cool seeing a fresh world from the beginning, instead of generic fantasy setting.
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Feb 16, 2023 03:26
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The dinosaurs as enemies was cool. Dinosaurs as friends was even cooler.
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Feb 16, 2023 03:27
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