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Invalid Validation posted:Humans are so broke brained I could see paradise being actual hell. I mean spoilers for a show that ended years ago, but the good place sure makes that argument pretty compelling, at least in some aspects
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Feb 25, 2023 17:31
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CainFortea posted:The only story we got of "no evil is actually bad" comes from rand's imagining. Maybe it's more that he is just so emo that he can't imagine a world where nothing bad happens I think its more of a free will argument, if everyone has to be good because Rand makes them act that way, are they actually good. And that's more less the showdown at the end of season 1 but its more would Egwene actually be Egwene if you rewrote the world in such a way that she settles down with you in the 2 rivers. I worry about that with the show, its kind of fired the final shot already. There aren't any more motivations left to find out other than the funny ones like a guy joined the dark one because he felt short even though he actually wasn't.
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Feb 25, 2023 20:23
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Yeah, it seems to me that the intent is that while the Dark One himself can go gently caress himself, removing him removes a fundamental aspect of reality that allows free will to exist - it's not just that his existence allows *only* evil to exist as a concept, but perhaps also chaos, disagreement, change - things that are important to human nature. I mean, there's perhaps a fair argument that living in the bland paradise of a universe where the concept of evil or chaos does not and cannot exist is probably enjoyable, but forcing it on the entire world is roughly analogous to mind controlling the whole world.
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Feb 26, 2023 09:56
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yep, that's what rand realises at the end if he chooses for everyone, they don't exist anymore to be human is to be able to choose and thus the wheel turns on
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Feb 26, 2023 11:13
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What's kind of funny about that position is the series in general is kind of anti free will. If you're not a special boy ta'veren you're a thread in the pattern. You're bound up in the milieu you were born into and you dance to the music you can't hear. And that's generally true to life, you have no say in how the economic system works. You speak the languages you grew up speaking and what you consider a good life is what the people you know consider a good life. I'm the same, I'm not going epic atheist on it. On a level if Rand could conceive of a reality outside feudalism for the people who aren't free anyway, that would have been interesting as a conclusion. But in spite of everything he does believe in free will
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Feb 27, 2023 06:08
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There is prophecies spoken thousands of years before they happen which means all those events are already laid out well ahead of time. Why go though the whole song and dance of will the chosen one fall, when the entire thing is already written. The creator is not a force of good.
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Feb 27, 2023 06:34
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cheesetriangles posted:There is prophecies spoken thousands of years before they happen which means all those events are already laid out well ahead of time. Why go though the whole song and dance of will the chosen one fall, when the entire thing is already written. The creator is not a force of good. Anybody can misread prophecy/prophecy can be changed or altered (See: Ishmael), and forcing an event can lead to unintended consequences/ripples in the pattern.
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Feb 27, 2023 06:49
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Personally I've always hated the whole prophecy trope endemic to fantasy stories. It instantly destroys a lot of the tension of the story for me if how everything turns out in the end is already prewritten and the actions of the characters don't actually truly matter. I did appreciate the few nods in the other direction the series took in saying that maybe the prophecies depend on the Wheel continuing to turn and if the Wheel is broken then all bets could be off.
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Feb 27, 2023 08:27
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The entire series is full of people misreading prophecy.
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Feb 27, 2023 09:12
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Colonel Cool posted:Personally I've always hated the whole prophecy trope endemic to fantasy stories. It instantly destroys a lot of the tension of the story for me if how everything turns out in the end is already prewritten and the actions of the characters don't actually truly matter. I did appreciate the few nods in the other direction the series took in saying that maybe the prophecies depend on the Wheel continuing to turn and if the Wheel is broken then all bets could be off. On the other hand, a prophecy can create tension if it involves people or individuals who are clearly unfit or not living up to expected outcomes 
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Feb 27, 2023 13:15
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Myself, I love "here's what's going to happen, now read to find out how it happens"
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Feb 27, 2023 13:25
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CainFortea posted:The entire series is full of people misreading prophecy. You also have Rand musing several times about how ta'veren actually have less choice than others because the Pattern and prophecy don't actually care about the fine details of every thread/life and can and do shuffle things around to continue to weave roughly the same outcome. The results of the choices of most people don't actually have a major impact on the Pattern because it's so vast, so whether random Caemlyn butcher #25 decides to get up and go to work that day or stay in bed because of a cold and get fired or whatever makes no odds; the outcome is the same to the Pattern, which still weaves roughly the same outcome. A ta'veren touches so many lives though that the outcome of their decisions can change the general picture the Pattern is weaving, at least for a limited time, and conversely, the Pattern will push back harder on them if a ta'veren tries to avoid doing something the Pattern wants i.e. Mat. We also have direct evidence that someone can make a choice that doesn't suit a ta'veren because Tuon was able to say no to Rand even when she felt the weight of something compelling her to agree to his demands, with that something at least implied to be the Pattern because he wasn't wielding the Power or trying to compel her or anything. Plus, all that talk up to that point in the books about how during Artur Hawkwing's time there are accounts of people feeling his nature as a ta'veren when in the room with him. Rand was also invoking the nature of ta'veren to threaten Cadsuane around that time. It might not have been the Pattern itself, but Tuon certainly rejected Rand even when he was trying to assert his nature as ta'veren, which suggests there's some degree of free will at play.
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Feb 27, 2023 13:39
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tsob posted:You also have Rand musing several times about how ta'veren actually have less choice than others because the Pattern and prophecy don't actually care about the fine details of every thread/life and can and do shuffle things around to continue to weave roughly the same outcome. The results of the choices of most people don't actually have a major impact on the Pattern because it's so vast, so whether random Caemlyn butcher #25 decides to get up and go to work that day or stay in bed because of a cold and get fired or whatever makes no odds; the outcome is the same to the Pattern, which still weaves roughly the same outcome. A ta'veren touches so many lives though that the outcome of their decisions can change the general picture the Pattern is weaving, at least for a limited time, and conversely, the Pattern will push back harder on them if a ta'veren tries to avoid doing something the Pattern wants i.e. Mat. Yeah, this was always the part that helped it make sense to me. You can do any number of even huge things, a butcher can become a pirate captain or you can move around or do anything that most people would consider huge changes to their lives, but in the grand scheme of things it's not really relevant. The only time the Pattern cares is for the huge things like "someone has to confront the Dark One, there has to be a great general at the Last Battle" kind of stuff. Everything else is just window dressing it can just ignore. Even weaves that people rediscover are covered as several people did so independently, and it could always just toss the knowledge to someone else if necessary, same with technology the Pattern wants brought back, or a group of people it wants moved around to another part of the world. Someone else could do something, so the Pattern doesn't care who that was, just that the thing gets done at some point.
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Feb 27, 2023 18:57
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Rand muses on whether being gentled would be so bad in TGH, one has to think Logain or Taim would have taken his place in that case.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:03
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Rand muses on whether being gentled would be so bad in TGH, one has to think Logain or Taim would have taken his place in that case. I'd think it more likely Nynaeve would have moved heaven and earth to help him at that point, regardless of whether he wants it or not, because the Pattern would mean he does want it as far as Nynaeve is concerned and regardless of his own feelings on the matter, and that she'd discover how to help heal a gentling earlier than otherwise to help Rand become who prophecy says he has to be. The bigger issue there is that she wouldn't accidentally heal Logain, but then, someone else would probably do so completely independently at that point.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:08
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tsob posted:I'd think it more likely Nynaeve would have moved heaven and earth to help him at that point, regardless of whether he wants it or not, because the Pattern would mean he does want it as far as Nynaeve is concerned and regardless of his own feelings on the matter, and that she'd discover how to help heal a gentling earlier than otherwise to help Rand become who prophecy says he has to be. The bigger issue there is that she wouldn't accidentally heal Logain, but then, someone else would probably do so completely independently at that point. Huh. That's an equally viable and likely way that never even occurred to me. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:10
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Think of it like those pictures of a person's face, but all the pixels are someone else, or just random things. The Age Lace is one of those pictures and you can go and change the pixel images quite a lot and still get the desired effect.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:36
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Huh. Note that Nynaeve heals stilling at, like, almost exactly when Rand is on track to get captured by the Tower. The Pattern is *preparing*.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:41
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Huh. I'd think it more likely just because by then the Wheel/Pattern has already invested in him as the Dragon while Logain and Taim are being woven for their own roles, so it'd seem easier to just rejigger one thread a bit to get it back into the plan you already had than to rejigger two so that Logain or Taim is now the Dragon and either Rand or some other rando male channel fills their role. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Note that Nynaeve heals stilling at, like, almost exactly when Rand is on track to get captured by the Tower. The Pattern is *preparing*. Huh, that's actually a good point. Neat.
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Feb 27, 2023 19:51
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tsob posted:I'd think it more likely just because by then the Wheel/Pattern has already invested in him as the Dragon while Logain and Taim are being woven for their own roles, so it'd seem easier to just rejigger one thread a bit to get it back into the plan you already had than to rejigger two so that Logain or Taim is now the Dragon and either Rand or some other rando male channel fills their role.
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Feb 27, 2023 20:45
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Fwiw, Fain had become Shaisam and was looking for somewhere to leach into - if Rand had chosen to kill TDO it seems like Fain was there in the wings. The Pattern seems to make things happen one way or another
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Feb 27, 2023 21:03
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bio347 posted:But also, like, the Dragon is the specific soul of a specific person. I don't think Logain or Taim could step into the role of the Dragon. I think the series leaves that as a pretty open question tbh, especially with Birgette getting torn out of T'A'R. There's also all the interesting indications that the pattern spins out 'backups' in forms of things like all the False Dragons that immediately ate poo poo once Rand declared himself etc. Like I think the Pattern definitely weaves a certain way but Tuon demonstrates you can absolutely deny the pressure it puts on you and it also seems to spin out a bunch of contingencies to ensure its success even if individual pieces don't work out. Like it seemed to need a Dragon before Rand declared so put a bunch of dudes in a position to declare for it and bent fate to wipe out that once he did to not conflict with him. Its really interesting because it also seems to not run along the same wavelength as Min's visions which are unerringly true. Which is another thing that throws a huge and weird wrench in the works. Zore fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Feb 27, 2023 |
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Feb 27, 2023 21:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Note that Nynaeve heals stilling at, like, almost exactly when Rand is on track to get captured by the Tower. The Pattern is *preparing*. And it could still have easily happened at a later date if she had healed Rand instead. If the pattern needed Logain specifically for something even though Rand was the one that got healed? Guess he's breaking out of jail and running to Rand to beg for help and he has Nynaeve heal him too. There's a million ways to do almost anything, especially with the pattern able to force things. Logain needs out of of jail and to get across the country without getting caught? Well looks like the jailer forgot to lock the door, all the patrols conveniently leave a gap he can get through, and he finds a horse that's also ready for travel someone else was planning to use but they ran inside to take a poo poo, and when the jailers go looking they start off in the wrong direction and completely lose him. There's little moments like that throughout the books, like someone got delayed by a freak storm or horse throwing a shoe so now they run into Rand. Something like that that if you look for are easy to dismiss as just poo poo that happens to everyone.
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Feb 27, 2023 21:19
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tsob posted:
I always kind of thought that during that phase he was using the True Power. Possibly subconsciously.
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Feb 27, 2023 21:28
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CainFortea posted:I always kind of thought that during that phase he was using the True Power. Possibly subconsciously. I read it as the pattern functions stochastically. You *can* exert free choice but sometimes literally everything will conspire to make certain things occur. In that instance the pattern didn't quite want Tuon to bend and Rand couldn't quite force it.
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Feb 27, 2023 21:39
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CainFortea posted:I always kind of thought that during that phase he was using the True Power. Possibly subconsciously. The True Power has fairly noticeable effects that weren't present. Rand often mentioned in his internal thoughts that he could feel the temptation of the TP constantly, the few times he used it were extremely evident in his mind, and he never started showing the saa in the eyes the way any significant TP use is implied to cause fairly quickly. I think the best explanation is exactly how it is presented - Rand's ta'veren nature is crushingly powerful, Tuon and Egwene are the few people with strong enough will to not only recognize it but push through it.
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Feb 27, 2023 22:59
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Gnoman posted:The True Power has fairly noticeable effects that weren't present. None of the events we discussed were read from Rand's viewpoint.
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Feb 28, 2023 00:37
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Gnoman posted:The other way to look at it is that there's different meanings of "winning". Whatever nebulous thing the Dark One has to do to break the Pattern (again assuming that is what he actually wants and not another lie from the Father of Lies) might not come to pass even if his armies wipe out everything or enslave the world. Jordan's description (from his notes) of how the 1st age ended ended is pretty brutal: https://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/some-sort-of-balance-is-perfect-wheel.html posted:“The First Age ended when fire rained from the heavens. The flesh of men melted, and those who did not melt were charred like coals. Plagues, boils and sores roamed the world and famine, yet to eat or drink often meant death, for waters and fruits that once were wholesome now slew at the eating. Even the air or the dust could slay. The wind could bring death. Rivers filled with dead fish and birds fell from the sky. Invisible vapours from the land that slew. Noxious fumes that corroded men’s flesh.
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Feb 28, 2023 01:39
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Test Pattern posted:Jordan's description (from his notes) of how the 1st age ended ended is pretty brutal: Oh, yeah. That sounds like our age for sure.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:31
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It sounds an awful lot like Revelations
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Feb 28, 2023 06:22
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Test Pattern posted:Jordan's description (from his notes) of how the 1st age ended ended is pretty brutal: Goddamn Barreft fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 06:52
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I just finished my first readthrough, and I read New Spring last. My memory of the beginning of the series is a bit hazy since I've read fourteen other WoT books since then. With Moiraine and Lan riding off to search for the baby dragon at the end of New Spring, and The Eye of the World picking up seventeen or eighteen or whatever years later, are we to understand that Moiraine and Lan were at it pretty much that whole time? I imagine they were, but did she ever return to the tower during that time? Also, how did she end up in Emond's Field? The notes that she and the other accepted collected from the camp followers wouldn't include any hint of Rand. IIRC, at Emond's Field she thinks that one of the three lads is the Dragon but doesn't have any idea which one (at first). Was Mat or Perrin or that other kid who gets a coin born near Dragonmount too? I was thinking that it was only Tam who was out fighting in the Aiel War. If the answer is "we don't know" that's fine, but that very rarely seems to be the answer to questions like this about Wheel of Time.
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Feb 28, 2023 17:49
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We mostly know. They were doing this search the whole time, but had returned to the tower occasionally. In tgh Anaiya I think notes to Moraine that she'd been away from the tower "for far too long" but it sounded like years, not the entire time. And, all the warders know Lan. During the search she found some kind of rumor that a man had found a baby, and eventually led her to the two rivers. Why she pinpointed the three boys, she asked around for birthday and years, and she sure knew exactly what age she was looking for. She didn't necessarily know which one was born outside the two rivers immediately, though, which is why she gave pennies to the three of them and Ewan. Just in case.
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Feb 28, 2023 17:54
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Isn't Rand visibly different from everyone else in Emond's Field? You'd think that would have been a pretty big clue.
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Feb 28, 2023 18:02
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Colonel Cool posted:Isn't Rand visibly different from everyone else in Emond's Field? You'd think that would have been a pretty big clue. It was. Moiraine said she was mostly sure. But also it still could have been the other boys. The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills
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Feb 28, 2023 18:06
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Colonel Cool posted:Isn't Rand visibly different from everyone else in Emond's Field? You'd think that would have been a pretty big clue. That only means anything if she knows for a certainty the Dragon was born by someone not of Two Rivers heritage, which she isn't sure of at the time even if the reader becomes aware of it over time. Whatever soldier had Rand could potentially have been a Two Rivers person for all she knew. The fact Rand isn't makes him singular and more likely, but likely isn't definitive and doubly less so when even the Shadow isn't sure of it and is haunting all of them as well and not just Rand. tsob fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 18:23
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Basically even if you are mostly certain don't take any unneeded risks.
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Feb 28, 2023 19:25
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i mean notably the dark one didn't just drag some emond's field kid off in a sack and call it good, so there's no reason at all Moiraine should get lazy either
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Feb 28, 2023 19:32
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Also note that Kari al'Thor was an outsider to the Two Rivers and could probably have been Rand's mother for all most anyone knew. I don't think it was a widely known fact that Rand was adopted past like the Wisdom and maybe a few of the Council.
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Feb 28, 2023 21:20
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Test Pattern posted:Jordan's description (from his notes) of how the 1st age ended ended is pretty brutal: I wonder if, given the focus on mirroring and cycles, there isn't some turning (or a spoke on each turning?!) of the Wheel where the Whitecloaks or Aridhol or some version thereof 'win', and it's up to the iconoclastic Ishamael to mount a one soul resistance to the Dragon, Champion of the Light, who represents oppressive order and stultifying stability and an entrenched status quo. And then at the end the Ishy-soul has their own Veins of Gold/philosophy-debate-with-the-Dark-One and leaves a mote of light in the chaos into which he plunges the world, ready to be rekindled by some Light-side Lanfear. I mean, if we step outside of the in-universe metaphysics and into a thematic analysis (e.g. what is the text saying about humans in the real world) the whole series is a big old exploration of duty, failure, trauma, the hazards of being too confident in being the savior on one hand (Aridhol, Whitecloaks, Aram, Masema, Eliada, Couladin, Dark Rand etc.) and too petty/narrowminded/passive on the other (most of the White Tower, all the folks who have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the last battle, arguably all three of the Two Rivers boys, although Rand gets over that pretty fast, etc.). I think there's also something in Lews Therin's weird wannabe arch-nemesi and they all kind make the point that they were a shade away from being Lew Therin. And we saw how close Rand/Lews were to reaching their level of evil and petty in the wrong circumstances. Hell, Lews arguably failed in his job because he was kinda a dick, but in doing so he helped set the stage for Rand. So maybe there's some turning where Demandred leads the light against Lews. Or the Dragon Egwene cleanses saidar and unites with Taim's Black Tower. Etc. etc. etc. So the prophecy is less 'this is and will forever be the truth' and more 'this is what we think will happen in this turning', and even within the story we see good guys actively gently caress with prophesy and determinism. That's basically Avienda's plot. And the point then is: you don't have a prophesy, but you do have responsibilities in the world. Maybe you're The Chosen One. Maybe you're Logain, and you get to reap the glory afterwards. Maybe you're some schmuck who takes a Trolloc sword to the face to no particular end. The point is, you can't 'win' at life, or banish all evil or whatever, but you can do your best with the hand you're dealt, and hope the next turning is better for your efforts. But you also can't take the multiverse cop out of there being a bunch of parallel worlds, and so morality doesn't matter. You've got to act like there is one thread and one version of the turning that you're in. You can slot this into a lot of Eastern religious/philosophical molds. I think not unintentionally, given the prominence of e.g. ying/yang, reincarnation and a great wheel, Rand as a Jesus/Buddha figure, etc. You could also read it as Campbell/Jung, with the Dragon less as a single recurring individual and more a recurring archetype that gets mapped onto whatever savior story the Pattern needs. Which I think is inevitable for most Western SF/Fantasy writers, partly because Jung and Campbell were so broad in their ideas that just about anything can be mashed into their ideas if you try hard enough, but also because they were both super influential directly but also influential on the stories that ended up being influential in the genre. But it's pretty close to the surface with WoT.
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Feb 28, 2023 21:42
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