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I do think the core thesis of most of the Culture books is something along the lines of “if you set up the socialist utopia and solved all the big problems / answered the big questions, what would you do when you rubbed up against other cultures/pseudo nations with different (or in your eyes outright morally wrong or retrograde) views and values?” I think this is super politically and socially relevant because the Culture is an idealised version of the West (or at least the slightly outdated socialist side of the West concerned with human rights, democracy, decolonisation and egalitarianism/addressing inequality) and the question of how the model society engages with autocracies, theocracies, oligarchies etc is a really complex and likely enduring problem. It’s very much the normative cosmopolitan vs globalist debate of the 90s. I suppose the sad thing is how it is maybe slightly less relevant to the current moment given the state of politics in the US/UK and general nationalist resurgences everywhere. But almost all the culture books are about the periphery between societies and values, and the complexities of idealism/human rights while dealing with other cultures with different values and perspectives.
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Mar 11, 2023 08:24
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Yeah, it's very important to note that The Culture series was written during the great debates about exporting end of history liberalism from the Fall of the Wall to Obama. I'd argue that The Culture might be even more a liberal utopia than a communist one.
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Mar 11, 2023 08:47
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fez_machine posted:Yeah, it's very important to note that The Culture series was written during the great debates about exporting end of history liberalism from the Fall of the Wall to Obama. Yeah it's actually very liberal interventionist in philosophy, I was mainly riffing on banks views of the Culture as "hippy commies with hyper-weapons" This is an interesting article along those lines, though it gets a few things wrong about the books.
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Mar 11, 2023 09:04
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It’s hard to say if it’s actually liberal interventionist or if Banks is criticizing it - I think you could make a case either way depending on which book you picked. I think he’s exploring the case for interventionism and the subsequent complexities, really, including all the fallout. I think that’s what I like most about them, and why Use of Weapons and Look to Windward are probably the ones I enjoy most, and why I think Player of Games is such a good entry point for it (as it’s probably the most on the nose about this out of all the books).
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Mar 11, 2023 09:15
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Banks never really confronted the argument that since Minds are so infinitely more intelligent than the regular folks, the Culture cannot possibly have anything resembling democratic equality.
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Mar 11, 2023 09:21
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Yeah, exactly. It's like, assume you are all wise and incredibly powerful, and want to improve the world. what do you do next? Interesting contrast with Mallory ringess in the books I just read who just parks up, teaches philosophy and wanders round hanging double dong
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Mar 11, 2023 09:22
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Everyone posted:I mean there's plenty of systems you could insert into the sentence "If only resources were endless and/or supergod magic were real and/or human beings were consistently better/wiser/more generous creatures than human beings would actually be, [insert preferred socioeconomic system in this space] would prove itself completely superior to all other systems." I would love to read a novel set in an anarcho-capitalist world where the NAP is enforced by AIs/magic/whatever. It probably still wouldn't work because the ancap definition of "aggression" is too incoherent, but it would be cool to see someone take a crack at it.
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Mar 11, 2023 09:35
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fez_machine posted:I'd argue that The Culture might be even more a liberal utopia than a communist one. I was going to say: the Culture isn't communist at all, it's post-scarcity neoliberal. There's essentially zero difference between a slap-drone and an ankle tag.
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Mar 11, 2023 10:00
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Sailor Viy posted:I would love to read a novel set in an anarcho-capitalist world where the NAP is enforced by AIs/magic/whatever. Isn't that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? I haven't read it but I think that's the plot.
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Mar 11, 2023 10:17
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it's hard to treat the culture books as saying anything interesting politically when you've read the non-M books and see the same self-indulgent protags except they're living in 80-90s UK
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Mar 11, 2023 13:45
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fez_machine posted:Isn't that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? I haven't read it but I think that's the plot. Not really. The moon is already a libertarian society culturally, just one that starts off with being a colony. The AI is what allows them to successfully revolt and continue on their way being libertarian. The story is about the revolution, not the aftermath or the society. That is, the AI doesn't enforce the NAP, the society does (incoherently). I think the AI does also handwave away the resource scarcity though. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 14:58
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Ravenfood posted:Not really. The moon is already a libertarian society culturally, just one that starts off with being a colony. The AI is what allows them to successfully revolt and continue on their way being libertarian. The story is about the revolution, not the aftermath or the society. Which is (presumably unintentionally) hilarious. Haven't actually read it, but I'm guessing the general vibe is "We are the People of the Moon! We are an island unto ourselves who need nothing and no one (except a semi-omnipotent artificial intelligence who provides the food/water/oxygen/etc. that allows us to claim all of this super-duper self-sufficiency)!"
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Mar 11, 2023 15:28
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No, the scarcity issue actually drives the revolution to some degree. The AI solves the logistics, communication, and planning issues for the revolution. He's also a secret and only the main character (the closest thing the moon has to a computer engineer) and two other people know about him.
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Mar 11, 2023 15:38
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Everyone posted:Which is (presumably unintentionally) hilarious. Haven't actually read it, but I'm guessing the general vibe is "We are the People of the Moon! We are an island unto ourselves who need nothing and no one (except a semi-omnipotent artificial intelligence who provides the food/water/oxygen/etc. that allows us to claim all of this super-duper self-sufficiency)!"
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Mar 11, 2023 16:03
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Everyone posted:Which is (presumably unintentionally) hilarious. Haven't actually read it, but I'm guessing the general vibe is "We are the People of the Moon! We are an island unto ourselves who need nothing and no one (except a semi-omnipotent artificial intelligence who provides the food/water/oxygen/etc. that allows us to claim all of this super-duper self-sufficiency)!" Kinda. Resource extraction is important to the start of the revolution, but the AI doesnt create them, just prevents someone from unfairly controlling eg the oxygen. The Loonie society isn't particularly critically examined other than explanations of how parts of it are and that it is good. One thing the AI does well for the story is make it clear that just because a societal organization is marginalized and exploited doesn't mean it is inferior. It also solves the libertarian problem of how a weak/diffuse state can defend itself against a larger, centralized state bent on exploiting it, so that part is pretty handwavy.
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Mar 11, 2023 16:41
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FPyat posted:Banks never really confronted the argument that since Minds are so infinitely more intelligent than the regular folks, the Culture cannot possibly have anything resembling democratic equality. I think it's a present theme running through the series even if there isn't a book which is like Minds: Time To Be Held Accountable, like that's what repulses Horza from The Culture in Consider Phelbas and why the Morthanveld don't want to legislate that level of AI freedom in Matter (because they'll be abdicating the agency of biological life in much the same way). The proposition The Culture gives its citizens is 'yes, if you really think about it it's deeply questionable how genuine the democracy of our society is but look how well everything works and how happy we all are being run by these very clever computers! There's no Omelas orphans propping up our utopia here  '
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Mar 11, 2023 16:47
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No Dignity posted:even if there isn't a book which is like Minds: Time To Be Held Accountable This is at least arguably a sub theme in Excession.
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Mar 11, 2023 17:03
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Red Country (First Law) by Joe Abercrombie - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0076DEJMO/ Termination Shock by Neal Stephenson - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08WLWC6GZ/ Ashes of the Sun (Burningblade and Silvereye #1) by Django Wexler - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZZ25BCX%27
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Mar 11, 2023 17:31
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Sailor Viy posted:I would love to read a novel set in an anarcho-capitalist world where the NAP is enforced by AIs/magic/whatever. Is that the golden age books by what's his face who went crazy but liked writing night lands inspired future horror?
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Mar 11, 2023 17:36
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Sailor Viy posted:I would love to read a novel set in an anarcho-capitalist world where the NAP is enforced by AIs/magic/whatever. You may be interested in Ken Macleod's The Stone Canal.
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Mar 11, 2023 20:00
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Gates of Ivrel is a lot of fun. The start was a real slog of proper names and adjectives and a curious number of compound words, but I settled in eventually. 3rd person limited was absolutely the right choice for this book, it turned the deluge of worldbuilding into something manageable. So far it's a nice little adventure about a precursor race who royally hosed up and now the survivors must clean up the mistakes despite having no understanding of them Morgaine herself is about what I pictured: stoic and powerful and absolutely focused on her job despite all the crazy poo poo happening around her. She reminds me of a less socially awkward Geralt of Rivia, though perhaps it's the hair. Vayne I am absolutely loving, precisely because he's both admirable and pathetic. His character setup seems predictable at first: a bastard exiled from his family once he becomes too much of a problem, then is swept up in an adventurer where his skills can flourish and he settles into his own person. But no, it's been almost the exact opposite. The more the onion is peeled back, the more Vayne's life is revealed to be full of accidents and mistakes. He's not powerful or clever, and he's not motivated by heroics or adventurism. He's a self-admitted coward. Instead, he's driven by his supreme respect for contract law, being scared shitless of Morgaine, and the general fear of of losing his honor, as that's literally all he has left to live for. His biggest contribution so far has been to get tricked and poisoned by a little girl, endangering his master and perhaps even inadvertently dooming their quest. I love this little loser
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Mar 11, 2023 22:54
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The Luminous Dead by Caitlin Starling - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BJZT8GJ/ Aloha from Hell (Sandman Slim #3) by Richard Kadrey - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005LC1N1M/ Ballistic Kiss (Sandman Slim #11) by Richard Kadrey - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07X8HR8W9/
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Mar 12, 2023 16:50
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I have a sci-fi story stuck in my head but cannot figure out the author or title. Annoyingly the only significant thing I can remember is also a major plot spoiler. Does anyone remember a short story wherein all the people in a town/city/culture have a rite of passage where their consciousness is transferred into a robot/android body, but as the protagonist discovers consciousness isn’t transferred, but copied, which he realizes as he watches his counterpart wake up without experiencing any transition. The duplication issue is resolved in the usual but unspoken way, with the new version using its powerful body to smash the weak human form into pulp to be discarded secretly.
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Mar 12, 2023 21:07
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Loucks posted:I have a sci-fi story stuck in my head but cannot figure out the author or title. Annoyingly the only significant thing I can remember is also a major plot spoiler. Does anyone remember a short story wherein all the people in a town/city/culture have a rite of passage where their consciousness is transferred into a robot/android body, but as the protagonist discovers consciousness isn’t transferred, but copied, which he realizes as he watches his counterpart wake up without experiencing any transition. The duplication issue is resolved in the usual but unspoken way, with the new version using its powerful body to smash the weak human form into pulp to be discarded secretly. Greg Egan has a story very like that called Learning to Be Me
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Mar 12, 2023 21:55
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Dualist fearmongering. Disgusting.
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Mar 12, 2023 22:05
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My favorite settings are the ones where society solved that Gordian knot by simply not giving a gently caress that consciousness doesn’t transfer
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Mar 12, 2023 22:07
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quote:Sirius is paved with gold, So I've heard it said, By nuts who then go on to say, "See Tau before you're dead",
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Mar 12, 2023 23:12
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Tiny Timbs posted:My favorite settings are the ones where society solved that Gordian knot by simply not giving a gently caress that consciousness doesn’t transfer Just lmao at "continuity of consciousness", I'm stepping into into the teleporter, me passing the baton onto the new copy of me is a feature, not a bug.
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Mar 13, 2023 00:01
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fez_machine posted:Greg Egan has a story very like that called Learning to Be Me This is not it, but it is a good Egan story I hadn’t read, and certainly on a similar theme. Thank you. In the one I’m thinking of there was a scene with the human and android face to face. I think it’s pretty old too. Could just be a fever dream for all I know.
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Mar 13, 2023 00:44
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Loucks posted:I have a sci-fi story stuck in my head but cannot figure out the author or title. Annoyingly the only significant thing I can remember is also a major plot spoiler. Does anyone remember a short story wherein all the people in a town/city/culture have a rite of passage where their consciousness is transferred into a robot/android body, but as the protagonist discovers consciousness isn’t transferred, but copied, which he realizes as he watches his counterpart wake up without experiencing any transition. The duplication issue is resolved in the usual but unspoken way, with the new version using its powerful body to smash the weak human form into pulp to be discarded secretly. I don't think it went that way but there's an Orson Scott Card (sigh, I know) short story where rich dude gets fat so he heads off to the cloning center, and in his new younger healthier body he goes off to party and get fat again. But the pov swaps and you find out that the original body? Not destroyed, but instead sent off to the potato farm from hell to get healthy and swole again so the government can send its now invisible citizen off to do black ops and stuff.
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Mar 13, 2023 01:22
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Brendan Rodgers posted:Just lmao at "continuity of consciousness", I'm stepping into into the teleporter, me passing the baton onto the new copy of me is a feature, not a bug. This is why I'm never taking a teleporter.
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Mar 13, 2023 01:24
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I just saw this article and found it interesting because of the political dimension to writing and reading this work in China. Whereas I know it's been pretty common in japan and the US for ages and they don't try to criminalize it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/13/chinas-rotten-girls-are-escaping-into-erotic-fiction-about-gay-men
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Mar 13, 2023 02:07
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FPyat posted:Banks never really confronted the argument that since Minds are so infinitely more intelligent than the regular folks, the Culture cannot possibly have anything resembling democratic equality. I dunno that it needs any more confrontation that it got, which is: -People can still do stuff and your actions have value even if they're not optimal -People stupider than you are still people -Humans still get a democratic say-so in politics, it's just that one person doesn't equal one mind so you probably gotta vote in blocs
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Mar 13, 2023 03:12
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Loucks posted:I have a sci-fi story stuck in my head but cannot figure out the author or title. Annoyingly the only significant thing I can remember is also a major plot spoiler. Does anyone remember a short story wherein all the people in a town/city/culture have a rite of passage where their consciousness is transferred into a robot/android body, but as the protagonist discovers consciousness isn’t transferred, but copied, which he realizes as he watches his counterpart wake up without experiencing any transition. The duplication issue is resolved in the usual but unspoken way, with the new version using its powerful body to smash the weak human form into pulp to be discarded secretly. That's how they get the old people into new bodies in Old Man's War. I think there's a scene where someone sees his body still moving or something, haven't read it in years.
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Mar 13, 2023 03:37
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That's not how Old Man's War works.
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Mar 13, 2023 04:24
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Finished Gates of Ivrel. It was an extremely quick read and also: it rules! It's one of the most interesting mixes of scifi and fantasy I've read, thanks largely to being tightly written from the perspective of a "fantasy" character who understands little of what's happening. Oftentimes Vayne will be describing an event or object using his understanding and language, and you're left to your own intuition to figure out what he's "really" describing. It's an extremely cool feeling once you do. The revelation that Morgaine's sword was just a mini portal whose destination was set to "middle of space" was phenomenal. She can just swing it around and vent people and projectiles and whatever else into the void as if it were a portable airlock, yet she loving hates the thing and is absolutely terrified of it. That's so metal! Beyond the genre stuff, it also has a superb cast of complicated characters who realistically bounce from ally to foe depending on the situation. It's a politically complex world, and Morgaine herself is a force of nature that obliterates the status quo just by existing. It's such a fun dynamic.
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Mar 13, 2023 07:12
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I hate to be just wait guy, but just you wait! The rest are great, too. It's also great for fans of horses being appropriately cared for and ridden, my  riding friend tells me
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Mar 13, 2023 07:21
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sebmojo posted:I hate to be just wait guy, but just you wait! The rest are great, too. Cherryh is part of a circle of writer-friends who are all horse-girls, as far as I can tell. Cherryh and Marion Zimmer Bradley were both mentors to Mercedes Lackey as she was learning to write, all three contributed work on the Darkover setting, and all three seem to have strong opinions on horses.
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Mar 13, 2023 10:18
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habeasdorkus posted:This is why I'm never taking a teleporter. What do you think happens every time you sleep?
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Mar 13, 2023 10:39
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thotsky posted:What do you think happens every time you sleep? You go to a cool dreamworld where your imagination runs free?
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Mar 13, 2023 10:59
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