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Augus posted:yeah one is a Turn-Based RPG and the other is Boring I suppose the distinction will be much less relevant if FFXVI's action combat becomes the new standard. People will still call it a "JRPG" though even though it bears almost no resemblance to earlier turn based games that have usually be what defined the term FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:04
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i'm gonna let you in on a little secret: all genres are fake and the more prescriptive you get with them the dumber they become
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Mar 14, 2023 02:06
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What's wild about this is that, after this statement was made, Bioware's games began to actively devolve. Two years after he said that, they'd drop Dragon Age II, and start the irreversible path towards being just a punchline for jokes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R8SyNZQaPg
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Mar 14, 2023 02:07
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Augus posted:i'm gonna let you in on a little secret: all genres are fake and the more prescriptive you get with them the dumber they become I mean everything is fake
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Mar 14, 2023 02:07
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I suppose "Character RPG" does kind of work in that in a lot of the sort of games being discussed, the big genre divider is if the PCs are more or less blank slates, of if they're pre-defined characters embedded in the narrative. Like the Vault Dweller or the Hero of the Sword Coast or the Last Dragonborn of Commander Sheperd are entirely open to personal preference as to what kind of person they are, they're vessels for the player to interact with the universe according to the role they want them to play. Cloud Strife, however, is Cloud Strife, he has a history and a personality and a character arc seperate from the player's inputs, the story's about HIM, and you're along for the ride experiencing the universe through his perspective. It feels like a much more important distinction than whether a game is turn-based or real-time, or what country made it or whatever. Looking at FFXVI, it looks real time and action based, but it's still about Clive and his story more than yours. Note however that by this definition, Final Fantasy 1 would fall more into the western or "world" RPG mold, since the player party are blank slates just by the limits of the technology to have any sort of characterization in a game where everone had like twenty animation frames total and nobody could have more than one box of text at a time. Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:07
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Asterite34 posted:I suppose "Character RPG" does kind of work in that in a lot of the sort of games being discussed, the big genre divider is if the PCs are more or less blank slates, of if they're pre-defined characters embedded in the narrative. Like the Vault Dweller or the Hero of the Sword Coast or the Last Dragonborn of Commander Sheperd are entirely open to personal preference as to what kind of person they are, they're vessels for the player to interact with the universe according to the role they want them to play. Cloud Strife, however, is Cloud Strife, he has a history and a personality and a character arc seperate from the player's inputs, the story's about HIM, and you're along for the ride experiencing the universe through his perspective. Yeah this is, in my mind, the difference between the two styles of game. Sounds to me like the main issue is the media being dumb and writing a bunch of poo poo to get clicks 
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Mar 14, 2023 02:09
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FF15 has more in common with tales of berseria than it has with exile: escape from the pit. therefore I group the first two in a tighter cluster on my made up taxonomy of game genres
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Mar 14, 2023 02:10
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Genres are all fake but they're useful, I mean, if my friend tells me about a movie "It's a slasher movie" is useful information to have rather than have him be like "I dunno man, it's" and then proceeds to summarize the plot. "Horror" movie is good too but it's more broad and there's plenty of different kinds of horror movies so to say that Friday the 13th is the same as the Silence of the Lambs is not really totally accurate.
FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:12
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FrostyPox posted:I get it, I think. I still find it a useful term, but when I say JRPG I don't mean literally a RPG from Japan but an RPG in the style of old-school Japanese RPGs (usually means turn-based, player characters are pre-set characters as opposed to characters the player creates, and other stuff I can't really articulate but certain plot and stylistic elements). I don't read a lot of games journalism so I'm not aware of how the western games media considers JRPGs but if that's all you're reading which as said earlier is how Japanese game devs try to get a feel for the western market, I wouldn't blame them for being upset. IMO a lot of gaming journalists are bye and large mercurial fucks that prioritize hot takes and clickbait over doing proper loving research on what the gently caress they are talking about, having demonstrably genuine passion for the things that they are covering, and being able to interact with feedback in reasonable ways that don't make them look like dickheads a lot of the time. I mean for fucks sake half of them nowadays are college students that seem to get hired because they post hot takes all the time on twitter that sometimes but frankly not often enough get good engagement and that's the best these sites are willing to do because I guess they aren't willing to pay out for a good articulate journalist that knows what they are talking about as opposed to just being loud and obnoxious. It's insanely hard to find credible seeming people nowadays but I'd kind of recommend the Easy Allies channel I guess. Especially if you're into RPG's because these guys know their poo poo and have been doing it for years and regularly have good informative round tables and aren't just making stupid hot takes all the time because they seem to want to have a good reputation and not irritate people with bad information or acting like shitheads to get interactions. It's pretty dire out there when far too often I'll google a game and the first results are often from sites like Gamerant, PC Gamers N, Dexerto and other outfits I know for a fact are not looking to be credible gaming journalism sites, regularly publish fake news or "people are saying this on twitter" articles and may potentially even be written by AI's for all I know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlV5fCFQ6XI Anyway maybe people already knows these guys and probably do, but their FFXVI video from a couple weeks ago was a good one. Also thumbs up for no dumb blowjob faces in the thumbnails and zero clickbait whatsoever. Actually most of the time the thumbnail is just the game or it'll be the guys in front of a microphone together or done up in some sort of costumes related to the game, but for the love of all that is good and decent in this world no blowjob faces. I think these guys have been around the beat long enough to realize how cliche and ubiquitous it is and how the audience they are clearly trying to appeal too (grown rear end men and women who don't want clickbait crap and tepid memes thrown in the face but old fashioned analysis and review of a video game) and that they'd probably skip right over any thumbnails with the blowjob faces. I know I always do. Kale fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:15
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NikkolasKing posted:As somebody who posted on this forum at that time, it was a pretty sad time to be a JRPG fan. So many JRPGs released in that period had a ridiculous level of hate. I doubt we'll ever see anything like the extreme hatred FFXIII got from gamers back then. I always felt like Xenoblade 1 being heralded as the best JRPG ever was because of the vitriol directed at every other JRPG released around this time. The vitriol has died down, and so has XBC1's praise. It was a long time ago, but I remember the jRPG scene being pretty dire in the late 00s. XBC1 got hyped probably because it was just a really good game with a whole fan movement to get it localized. Kinda like what happened with Demon's Souls Nowadays there's lots of great jRPGs from indies and big studios and most of the big studios are making an effort to make their classic games accessible so it's not desperate times like it was back then. A good game like XBC1 doesn't stand out as much as it used to.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:18
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FrostyPox posted:Yeah this is, in my mind, the difference between the two styles of game. Sounds to me like the main issue is the media being dumb and writing a bunch of poo poo to get clicks dude this was people with actual sway in the industry spouting poo poo about japanese video games being a relic of the past at major events, not just random tweets. Eric Engstrom called the original Xbox "Project Manhattan" behind the scenes because it was going to "blow up" the japanese console industry. Microsoft had to step in and tell him to stop calling it that.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:19
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Augus posted:dude this was people with actual sway in the industry spouting poo poo about japanese video games being a relic of the past at major events, not just random tweets. Sounds like a bunch of idiots to me. Like the fact that he thought it was appropriate to say that is extremely hosed up and I'm surprised they didn't straight-up fire him. I don't know who he is, by the time the XBox and PS2 rolled around I had stopped really paying attention to consoles If it will make you feel better I'll refer to them as "turn-based" vs "real time" from hereon FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:23
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Augus posted:Eric Engstrom called the original Xbox "Project Manhattan" behind the scenes because it was going to "blow up" the japanese console industry. Microsoft had to step in and tell him to stop calling it that. jesus christ lmao
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Mar 14, 2023 02:24
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i always knew xbox was racist
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Mar 14, 2023 02:25
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FrostyPox posted:Sounds like a bunch of idiots to me nobody gives a poo poo what you personally call the games in your posts on a dead gay forum, least of all developers who live on the other side of the planet. i thought that was made pretty clear.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:30
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I’m gonna refer to the genre as Final Fantasy-likes. There are also Final Fantasy-lites but trying to define the differences will spark endless argument.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:30
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the thing about jrpgs in 7th gen is that the ramp up in costs resulted in a (frankly pretty universal) period of messy dev for all but surviving AA devs that just continued to put out modest games like atelier and yakuza unabated, while others ducked by going handheld. frankly there were a ton of cool and original games on DS/PSP/3DS/Vita in that period but journos and online discussion don't have object permanence for those platforms unless it's pokemon so for a while the genre was defined by disappointment with ff13, a handful of other early/mid-gen games, and weird hateons for games like atelier until they put out one with a guy.
Motto fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:31
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Augus posted:nobody gives a poo poo what you personally call the games in your posts on a dead gay forum, least of all developers who live on the other side of the planet. i thought that was made pretty clear. You seemed to care enough to comment on it
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Mar 14, 2023 02:31
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SettingSun posted:I’m gonna refer to the genre as Final Fantasy-likes. There are also Final Fantasy-lites but trying to define the differences will spark endless argument. Dragon Warrior was a Final Fantasy-like.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:34
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gently caress this reminds me I need to finish Lightning Returns, got too caught up in FFXIV again
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Mar 14, 2023 02:36
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Dragon Warrior was a Final Fantasy-like. DW is a Wizardry-like
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Mar 14, 2023 02:37
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Wizardry is a Colossal Cave Adventure-like (I had to loving google that one) EDIT: Change that to Akalbeth: World of Doom-like
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Mar 14, 2023 02:39
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FFXIV is a Runescape-like
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Mar 14, 2023 02:39
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Runescape is pretty good but it's not as good as the first MMORPG, WoW
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Mar 14, 2023 02:40
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anyway yoshida said himself they realized jrpg isn't actually singularly pejorative and many use it positively, but given he really wants ff16 to be a broadly appealing "must-buy" it's understandable not wanting to get subcategorized
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Mar 14, 2023 02:40
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FrostyPox posted:You seemed to care enough to comment on it i was commenting on the fact that you were being dismissive of industry criticism to get all precious and defensive about your own personal choice in pedantic genre definitions, and I know that you know this because you're currently in the process of going back and editing all your posts to look less angry and dismissive.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:40
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FrostyPox posted:Wizardry is a Colossal Cave Adventure-like Akalabeth is a pedit5-like
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Mar 14, 2023 02:42
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Augus posted:i was commenting on the fact that you were being dismissive of industry criticism to get all precious and defensive about your own personal choice in pedantic genre definitions, and I know that you know this because you're currently in the process of going back and editing all your posts to look less angry and dismissive. What's your favorite JRPG?
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Mar 14, 2023 02:42
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FrostyPox posted:What's your favorite JRPG? chrono trigger
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Mar 14, 2023 02:43
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rpg has to be the most diluted genre descriptor now tbf. feels like every game with a story and any kind of stats is called an rpg
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Mar 14, 2023 02:43
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Cool. I got that on a steam sale but haven't played it yet, I hear it's one of the best. Maybe I'll play that one next
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Mar 14, 2023 02:43
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Augus posted:chrono trigger Basic answer smh.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:44
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doesn’t matter Final Fantasy Tactics is #1
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Mar 14, 2023 02:45
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Basic answer smh. sometimes things are basic because they are so perfect and pure in their simplicity that nothing else has ever been able to take their place
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Mar 14, 2023 02:46
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Chillgamesh posted:It was a long time ago, but I remember the jRPG scene being pretty dire in the late 00s. XBC1 got hyped probably because it was just a really good game with a whole fan movement to get it localized. Kinda like what happened with Demon's Souls I think FFXIII's trouble reception at the time opened the door for a lot of would be fledgling RPG franchises that otherwise might have never gotten as much of a look in the presence of the big blockbuster JRPG franchise of them all, which I'm skeptical it's still viewed in that context nowadays and seems to be what Yoshi-P wants to bring it the franchise back to with FFXVI. Franchises like Fire Emblem had yet to undergo their renaissance period and the very mediocre and poorly received Shin Mystery of the Emblem had come out that year and flopped. FF was arguably struggling with gamers for the first time in it's history and getting a lot of bad press and feedback for XIII's linear nature and some of it's admittedly awkward and confusing storytelling and terminology (even for an FF game and especially with FFX-2 which I enjoyed the game but gently caress me if I could parse the storyline and dialogue, which wasn't nearly as much of an issue with XIII and Lightning Returns). Mass Effect was positively huge still at the time and it's fanbase had yet to meltdown cause Mass Effect III had yet to be released and we weren't quite in gamers melting down all the time mode yet, nor had Gamergate come to pass yet, but we were definitely rapidly trending towards it. 2009-2010 IMO legitimately was not a super strong couple of years for JRPG's and Xenoblade Chronicles was arguably one of the better ones that year that didn't have a lot for people to knock and also wasn't overtly "anime" either with it's character models. The remaster kind of took care of that though and I remember a lot of bitching about how the remaster looked too "anime", which I guess was supposed to stand in and of itself as a legitimate criticism I don't know. Frankly if you ask me while anime has gotten undeniably more trendy outside of Asian countries, I'm of the impression that for a lot of people it's the gifable memes, wacky reaction faces that Japanese animation has been known for since the dawn of time, and those 30-90 second Sakuga flourishes done by a lone Key Animator putting weeks of effort into, that a lot of these people are latching onto and enjoy posting on twitter as reaction takes and that a lot of people are still kind of weird as poo poo about their relationship with and tolerance for anime aesthetics in America as they've ever been. It seems to vary by the day and situation and what the flavor of the month is how "anime" is viewed by the American public and whether that means something good or something bad. Everything seems to trend in and out so fast these days and public sentiment can flip on a dime with social media that it's kind of hard to say and people still seem to lack context for a lot of things they comment on with regard to Asian media franchise and don't seem to wish to learn the context when others sometimes try to provide it. I remember I could not have been more curious to learn context for this stuff back in the late 90's and early 2000's and was willing to following the history of franchises back to the 80's to learn said context when I was at absolute peak of interest in it all, but maybe I'm the outlier that way I don't know. Without getting into lengths about it there's also that weird crowd that can only seem to view "anime" (and by extension JRPGs) through the context of some form of very loud and vocal sexual deviancy and seem to insist it's all about and can only ever be about that and their takes generally aren't appreciated nor worth much consideration by me. This has the compound annoyance of allowing some journalists looking to click bait and hot take to paint all people into Asian media content with this brush to this day, even if it's not quite at 2009-2010 levels, because they also sort of have to acknowledge it's undeniable trendiness. It's probably never getting any better than it is right now in all honesty so yeah...... Kale fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:47
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Chrono Trigger is the one with art from Akira Toriyama and has the Frog character, right? Looks dope as poo poo EDIT: yeah, cool, I'm installing it now FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 02:48
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TheHoosier posted:doesn’t matter Final Fantasy Tactics is #1 Less basic, but more wrong. FFTA2 though? Now that's the poo poo
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Mar 14, 2023 02:51
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FrostyPox posted:Chrono Trigger is the one with art from Akira Toriyama and has the Frog character, right? Looks dope as poo poo It is dope as poo poo, Frog is dope as poo poo, and I am very glad you get to experience it for the first time.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:52
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VostokProgram posted:rpg has to be the most diluted genre descriptor now tbf. feels like every game with a story and any kind of stats is called an rpg I remember 90s Nintendo Power calling Legend of Zelda an RPG as well. Not just the magazine, but also some of the letters submitted from fans.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:52
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FrostyPox posted:Chrono Trigger is the one with art from Akira Toriyama and has the Frog character, right? Looks dope as poo poo It’s legitimately in my all-time Top 5. CT is insanely good SyntheticPolygon posted:Less basic, but more wrong. I have never actually tried 2. Do I need to rectify that, or is that a joke?
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Mar 14, 2023 02:53
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