|
Why do Wago connectors come in configurations of 2-3-5? Why not 4?
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2023 15:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 22:23 |
|
|
if you need more than one pigtail you probably need a bunch more than one pigtail
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2023 16:18
|
|
|
SkunkDuster posted:Why do Wago connectors come in configurations of 2-3-5? Why not 4? 2- Connect two wires 3- Tee off one thing 5- Connect many things If you need 4, leaving an empty on the 5 is easy and they don't need a 3rd SKU
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2023 16:32
|
|
|
Motronic posted:1.) Homeline is fine. It's simply not as good, but it's fine. You don't have the same level of breaker availability (varieties of sizing, double poles, etc) and the breakers themselves aren't as good (when tested under lab conditions). They also don't have the little orange tripped flag in them. You likely won't notice the difference on a properly sized panel in your home. At some point in the pandemic I installed a homeline panel because I couldn't get the QO breakers I needed due to availability issues. Thanks, anyone use a panel with their Qwik-Grip system? Seems like it'd be more convenient for no real loss, whether I go with that or a regular KO only panel unfortunately I think I'm going to have to enlarge one of the 3/4'' knockouts to 1 1/4'' to accommodate 2 sub-panels and a 65amp line for a large induction range.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2023 22:07
|
|
|
SkunkDuster posted:Why do Wago connectors come in configurations of 2-3-5? Why not 4? If it helps, jumper bars for industrial terminals are the same way, which is probably where they took it from because Wago makes a poo poo ton of those. You typically get 2-, 3-, 5-, 10-, and sometimes 20-pole configurations. It's because of how you assemble the different number of connections you could possibly need: Using (2) 2-poles is actually still just 2 connections because you lose 1 on each for the interconnect (with terminals you'd still get 3, but that's another story). So with that, you need a 3-pole to get 3 connections. Using (2) 3-poles gets you 4 connections, so if you need 4 you just use 2 3-poles. Or you could just get a 5-pole and leave the 5th slot open. To get 5 connections, you'd need a 4 and a 3. But since you don't have a 4, now you need to make a 5-pole. I mean you could assemble that out of (3) 3-poles, but that's unwieldy and takes up space you probably don't really have if you only need 5 connections. 5 connections is still a common requirement, so it makes sense to make a 5-pole rather than forcing people to assemble a bunch of 3-poles. To get 6+, you can just assemble whatever you need from smaller pieces, and if you need that many then you probably have room for it. And frankly for wagos, if you need to cram that many connections in a junction box, you've got bigger problems (not so much for industrial terminals, which is why you can get longer jumper bars... you can also usually cut them down to length if necessary). The name of the game here is to reduce the number of SKUs you have because each one takes up inventory space and production space (tooling, materials, engineering BOMs, etc.). So unless the market has a desperate need for a 4-pole, they aren't going to make one because you can assemble 4 connections from the pieces they have. edit: I mean realistically, nobody would buy a 4-pole. There might be some niche uses for it where a 5-pole wouldn't work for some reason, but given the above assembly logic nobody in their right mind is going to buy a 4-pole when they could just use a 5-pole. The amount of wasted space on an unused 5th pole is negligible for the vast majority of applications, and the cost is unlikely to be that much more (probably higher because the volume on a 4-pole would be so low). DaveSauce fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Mar 13, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2023 12:42
|
|
|
This also implicates one of my favorite standards: ISO 3 - Series of Preferred Numbers
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2023 12:56
|
|
|
DaveSauce posted:To get 5 connections, you'd need a 4 and a 3. But since you don't have a 4, now you need to make a 5-pole. I mean you could assemble that out of (3) 3-poles, but that's unwieldy and takes up space you probably don't really have if you only need 5 connections. 5 connections is still a common requirement, so it makes sense to make a 5-pole rather than forcing people to assemble a bunch of 3-poles. Thank you for taking the time to write this up. The logic makes a lot of sense.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2023 14:08
|
|
|
shame on an IGA posted:This also implicates one of my favorite standards: ISO 3 - Series of Preferred Numbers I am now a huge fan of ISO-3. Thank you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renard_series for those who want to know more.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2023 18:02
|
|
|
I'm confused about why something is the way it is again. Wiring up for a dust collector with a 5hp 240v single phase motor, 19.5 FLA on the nameplate. The manufacturer recommends a 30A breaker, cool, that makes sense. Got my 10/2 wire and 30A receptacle all ready to go, and then I notice it has a NEMA 6-20 plug on it, the attached cord is only 12ga wire, and the magnetic starter/controller is rated for 20A too. What gives? From my question last page, it's my understanding that the breaker exists to protect the wire, and that the whole chain from breaker to equipment should all be rated for whatever the breaker is, i.e. 10ga wire and a 30A plug. Does the motor or controller have its own overload protection and the 30A breaker is really just there in case of a fault or short, not really to protect the motor from overload? I guess in residental stuff plenty of electrical devices have tiny 16ga wire but plug into 15A circuits?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 02:20
|
|
|
I think the primary reason is because you're not supposed to draw 20a continuous on a 20a breaker. So if the dust collector regularly draws that much, you could nuisance trip a lot. Also, inductive motors don't like voltage sag so the headroom helps with the inrush current. I know the bit about the breaker is correct, I could be wrong about the inrush current/voltage sag.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 03:07
|
|
|
A few days ago I asked if Square D's Homeline panels were worth considering vs the typically recommended QO panels and for a yes/no on if AFCI is worth it when not required by local authorities. Motronic answered both questions, thanks again, but after filling a couple online shopping carts I'm reconsidering the panel. Any reason I shouldn't consider a Seimen's panel instead? Unfortunately as far as I can tell Square D only offers regular Tandem breakers whereas Seimen's has CAFCI tandems available. My existing panel has problems other than just capacity but that is one thing I'm hoping to improve on and since its already a 40 space panel, a full one, the only way to do so significantly is with Tandem breakers. Seems like the Seimen's is roughly equivalent to the Homeline but I figured it was worth asking.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 06:37
|
|
|
The Siemens PON load centers appear to have a copper buss bar, so in that resect they're better than homeline and more similar to QO. That's a LOT of breakers. If Siemens has what you need in the configuration you need go for it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 14:05
|
|
|
Unless I am blind (I am) yesterday I was looking for a square-d q0 w/ solar for my sister in law and it seems like only their homeline has those. They're getting a 10kw system and I am incredibly jealous. They live in the valley in socal, it's well worth it since they are getting in under the expiring net energy metering plans.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 15:16
|
|
|
I don't know how much having a copper bus bar matters for a panel installed indoors in climate controlled space or perhaps even an outdoor panel in southern CA. I prefer using them for outbuildings because I've seen and dealt with corrosion issues in panels like that, but that's around here where the temperature is routinely anything from 15 to 100 and it's quite humid.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 15:30
|
|
|
Yeah I told her to just do homeline because while it is very humid right now (it's raining so I assume it's national news) her neck of the woods is more well known for being 15% and 100f for half the year.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 15:36
|
|
|
I have a small unfinished under-stairway space that I need power in because that's where the router is going to live. Would there be any issue with adding a single gang box below this existing one, pigtailing the outlet in the existing metal box with some wago connectors, and running a short length of 14-2 down to an outlet in the new box? Do they need to be separated by a certain distance or anything like that?  All I can find is stuff saying that if it is a fire rated wall they can't occupy the same stud cavity. FWIW I plan throw a smoke detector in there because I'm paranoid like that. I was already planning on replacing the existing 1980s outlets in the house with tamper-resistant ones with a GFCI at the start of each chain, so I figure might as well do this while I'm at it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
That sounds totally fine. Make sure you properly attach/support the new run as necessary and since it's pointing towards an unfinished space you should probably use a metal outlet cover (or a box where the cover won't extend over it).
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:38
|
|
|
Is that existing box on a light switch or dimmer? Back in the 80s, they loved their switched lamps. There's no issue extending a circuit from an existing box. You could probably just hook up the new NM to the spare set of screws in that box. TR outlets are a nice upgrade, plus your new box would need one as well. GFCI is overkill though. Ground wires were standard by the 80s, so you shouldn't need GFCIs to do the 3-prong upgrades. Perhaps you're confusing that with AFCI upgrades? Because those are different. Still, that would be easier to accomplish by swapping out for AFCI breakers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:41
|
|
|
When I cut my 2' deep trench down to my pond, I'll do the warning tape and such halfway down or whatever it is, but above that, can I drop some low-voltage stuff in at like 6" depth in the same trench just for funsies? Like some direct-burial network cable or something for a camera.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:43
|
|
|
Bad Munki posted:When I cut my 2' deep trench down to my pond, I'll do the warning tape and such halfway down or whatever it is, but above that, can I drop some low-voltage stuff in at like 6" depth in the same trench just for funsies? Like some direct-burial network cable or something for a camera. Nope. It requires separation. So a different trench, a different level in the trench, conduit, etc. The idea here is so that mechanical damage is unlikely to bridge high voltage to low voltage cables.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:46
|
|
|
Motronic posted:a different level in the trench That's exactly what I'm suggesting: feeder gets buried at 2', low voltage at, like 6".
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:49
|
|
|
Bad Munki posted:That's exactly what I'm suggesting: feeder gets buried at 2', low voltage at, like 6". Oh yeah, that's totally fine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:50
|
|
|
Good deal, thanks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 19:51
|
|
|
Two conduits at the same level is fine right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 20:19
|
|
|
Imagine four conductors at the edge of a cliff
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 20:22
|
|
|
H110Hawk posted:Two conduits at the same level is fine right? I believe one conduit is fine as either of them being in conduit should satisfy the separation. I've heard some code officials get real particular about this kind of thing so the real answer is to ask yours about your plans first.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 20:26
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:Is that existing box on a light switch or dimmer? Back in the 80s, they loved their switched lamps. I will double check but I don't think it is switched. The overhead lights are on a dimmer. Good point about the extra terminals. I always am suspicious of those little bridge tabs but they must be acceptable if they are present. The GFCI plan is because I have a soon to be 3 year old and would like for the circuit to cut out if he slipped something behind a partially unplugged plug or tried to take scissors to a cord. I probably should just go with dual-function AFCI/GFCI breakers and call it a day though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2023 20:34
|
|
|
H110Hawk posted:Two conduits at the same level is fine right? If your low voltage is cat-5 or other low voltage communications running close to power for extended runs can cause interference.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 15:24
|
|
|
n0tqu1tesane posted:If your low voltage is cat-5 or other low voltage communications running close to power for extended runs can cause interference. Yeah but a few inches of separation should negate basically all of that. Inverse square something something. I have never seen it happen in the wild and in theory all you can buy these days is cat6 which is just cat5 with different markings you can't trick me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 15:29
|
|
|
In the better part of 20 years of IT work the only times I've ever seen actual interference problems caused by ethernet cables being run too close to power they were either draped directly over a fluorescent light fixture or we're talking about industrial levels of power. Mostly workshops with big motors, one time a massive arc furnace where the power wires literally jumped when it was turned on.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:17
|
|
|
wolrah posted:In the better part of 20 years of IT work the only times I've ever seen actual interference problems caused by ethernet cables being run too close to power they were either draped directly over a fluorescent light fixture or we're talking about industrial levels of power. Mostly workshops with big motors, one time a massive arc furnace where the power wires literally jumped when it was turned on. This. Outside of datacenter or manufacturing-level power it's all about the fluorescent light ballasts. I assume you won't be running across any buried ones.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:20
|
|
|
wolrah posted:In the better part of 20 years of IT work the only times I've ever seen actual interference problems caused by ethernet cables being run too close to power they were either draped directly over a fluorescent light fixture or we're talking about industrial levels of power. Mostly workshops with big motors, one time a massive arc furnace where the power wires literally jumped when it was turned on. Yup. Extremely old stuff that ran on hubs at 10mbps half duplex was sort of susceptible to it but it is an entirely overblown risk. If it comes to fruition then they can restring the conduit with fiber, stp, or use a point to point wifi connection.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:21
|
|
|
wolrah posted:In the better part of 20 years of IT work the only times I've ever seen actual interference problems caused by ethernet cables being run too close to power they were either draped directly over a fluorescent light fixture or we're talking about industrial levels of power. Mostly workshops with big motors, one time a massive arc furnace where the power wires literally jumped when it was turned on. Even those interfering was due to the older magnetic ballasts having, well, big magnets in them. Newer electronic ballasts aren't anywhere near as bad as the old ones. Also, they do make cat5 and 6 rated for direct burial. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Mar 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 19:39
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:Also, they do make cat5 and 6 rated for direct burial. And like many direct burial cables, the good stuff is full of icky pick and nasty to work with. (hint, have a lot of denatured alcohol on hand)
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 20:44
|
|
|
Speaking of things I wouldn't direct bury regardless of rating. High frequency signalling wire. Because either it sucks and will be flooded in a few months or it's going to be GROSS to work with and ew. Of all the scope creep I've half jokingly suggested telling someone to slam some PVC into the ground is not something I feel even remotely guilty about. Even near me it's $0.67/ft for 1" sched 40.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
Option C: just get preterminated cat6 direct burial of approximately the right length, let someone else deal with the grossness.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 22:18
|
|
|
Bad Munki posted:Option C: just get preterminated cat6 direct burial of approximately the right length, let someone else deal with the grossness.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2023 15:45
|
|
|
wolrah posted:While they do make direct burial patch cables preterminated to plugs, most of the sorts of applications that you'd normally want direct burial cable for are going to be the runs that should terminate to a jack or patch panel, and I've never seen a preterminated cable with keystones on each end. Not saying it doesn't exist, it certainly could, but I haven't seen it. Thankfully for this application it's like $20 in parts to adapt whatever you get from the factory to usable connections on both sides. This assumes a box, keystone, and a certain amount of intermediate "stuff." It's sort of hard to overstate how resilient ethernet is when well short of the 100M run length limits IIF the wires are unbroken and any punch downs are well punched. All of which is extremely easy to do with a minimal amount of dedicated tools or factory terminations. And that's even with just like 2x $45 netgear prosumer switches at either end, not some high end commercial or datacenter rack mount switch. Either way I think I would rather spend 2x as much to not have to worry about direct burial. I was surprised how cheap this was for 150ft at $61.44 (plus shipping I assume.) https://www.lanshack.com/Cat-6-Outdoor-Direct-Burial-Rated-Custom-Ethernet-Patch-Cable-Made-in-USA-by-QuickTreX-P9789
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2023 16:02
|
|
|
If I were to direct bury cat6 about 6 inches underground, would code care? I'm trying to figure out how to get power to a security camera about 200ft away from my house. POE seems like the simplest solution, but our yard is 50/50 rocks and clay, so digging any distance down is a huge pain in the rear end.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 00:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 22:23 |
|
|
Code couldn't give a poo poo what you do with low voltage so long as you don't mix it with regular voltage. I still suggest pvc over direct bury.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 01:30
|
|