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Black Griffon posted:Few enough that I wish you'd puy a spoiler tag on that I guess. Vulkan Lives is a decade old
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Mar 17, 2023 18:47
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moths posted:I put a question mark there because it was unclear, but I think it underscores my main point: - every loyalist
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Mar 17, 2023 19:16
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:specifically the fortune kind of implied that if sigismund had taken command of the fleet he’d have died but might have done significantly more to stop the traitors, maybe even blunting the heresy in its tracks My recollection was that he was told staying and disobeying the order would be much more important impact than going. Dorn got pissy because not only did Sigismund disobey a direct order, he didn't really believe in predicting the future so thought Sigismund was stupid on top of disloyal. Black Griffon posted:Few enough that I wish you'd puy a spoiler tag on that I guess. lol what? There are multiple books that have been out for a very long time where this is a central plot point.
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Mar 17, 2023 19:26
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oh look here comes the fuckin inquisition out to arrest me for my perfect and beautiful posts and opinions. don't you have a rogue to coerce into inevitably horrifying and deadly service.
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Mar 17, 2023 19:56
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SardonicTyrant posted:Am I a servant to an evil imperialist dictatorship? No, it is the traitors who are wrong. I love the rogal Dorn short story that is about how he had to be the pretorian because he always so strongly embodied the best ideals of the Imperium and it's a story of him waging a campaign against a human empire that has amazing tactical cohesion and can have fleets just zap in and out through the territory. After the legion finally breaks them and he's negotiating the peace terms, he's all "Oh, you guys will love to be reunited with the human realm, and the Mechanicum will be interested in the tiny implants in your brains that give you that tactical integration!" And they go "Oh those are not implants, they are gene-mods. It was too much trouble to keep installing them so we added them to our DNA" and he just blinks, leaves the room and tells his troops "Kill them. Every last one." Which is why all the high-minded noble "Oh woe, our awesome ideals are brought so low by this betrayal, we are such humanists!" talk around the loyal primarchs and Vulkan/Sanguinius especially always feels -really- forced. These guys were setting civilizations on fire to the last child because they got a xenos vaccine, not that long ago, and all of a sudden they're going on like Cpt Jean-Luc Picard! The best authors know how to play with that as it being the core of the Imperial moral blindspot, but it's rarer than it should be. I remember one author even had a good afterword about how when things went to poo poo in the first book, and Horus gave the order to open fir eon another, friendly human civilisation, his command was "Illuminate them!", and how much hubris tha tlittle detail reveals.
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Mar 17, 2023 21:32
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I liked that short story about Vulkan, the leader of what is commonly agreed to be the nicest and most compassionate Legion, stomping a bunch of Eldar children into mush. The loyalists are all hypocrites. At least good ol Curze knows what he's doing is bad, he's just having fun with it (when he's not too busy being crazy of course)
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Mar 17, 2023 21:53
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D-Pad posted:My recollection was that he was told staying and disobeying the order would be much more important impact than going. Dorn got pissy because not only did Sigismund disobey a direct order, he didn't really believe in predicting the future so thought Sigismund was stupid on top of disloyal. It’s been a long time but my recollection is that Keeler told him he could either die alone under the light of an unknown star, forgotten, or he could stand with Dorn. But if he did the second thing the result would be “war without end.” He did the second thing, and hey, look where we are. But I think mostly what pissed Dorn off was Sigismund just not following orders.
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Mar 17, 2023 22:47
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Ok I'm about ten pages into the end and the death and ADB is just so loving good. Horus has a throwaway like about his father finding a throne, and how it changed everything. And historically, it did. From this essay: quote:Olga Palagia By "changed everything," ADB and Horus used that particular historical pivot to lay the groundwork for everything we know about the Emperor of 40k. With one line. The symbolic transmutation of gods and religion into kings and royalty. He's a treasure. Easily the hardest hitter in the BL lineup. E: I'm spoiling that the Emperor was Alexander the Great because that's a pretty big drop. moths fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 23:38
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moths posted:Ok I'm about ten pages into the end and the death and ADB is just so loving good. check the author on that book dawg
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Mar 18, 2023 00:06
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:check the author on that book dawg ADB did say if Abnett didn't get to finish the Heresy it wouldn't be right.
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Mar 18, 2023 00:10
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Holy gently caress! My abnett appreciation just went through the roof.
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Mar 18, 2023 00:11
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Aan DaBnet Edit: Aan Da Battlenet
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Mar 18, 2023 00:25
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Man I used to think working for the Iron Hands would be the worst but after struggling through the new flesh tearers book, I think we have a new winner. What a bunch of completely unlikeable jerks.
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Mar 18, 2023 00:31
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I'm about 75% through Baal Gets hosed 2 Hell and I think these blood angels might have some bad apples guys.
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Mar 18, 2023 00:36
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Sephyr posted:I love the rogal Dorn short story that is about how he had to be the pretorian because he always so strongly embodied the best ideals of the Imperium and it's a story of him waging a campaign against a human empire that has amazing tactical cohesion and can have fleets just zap in and out through the territory. After the legion finally breaks them and he's negotiating the peace terms, he's all "Oh, you guys will love to be reunited with the human realm, and the Mechanicum will be interested in the tiny implants in your brains that give you that tactical integration!" And they go "Oh those are not implants, they are gene-mods. It was too much trouble to keep installing them so we added them to our DNA" and he just blinks, leaves the room and tells his troops "Kill them. Every last one." Also I think the "illuminate them" bit is perhaps both hubris and a simple pun on the 20th century saying "light 'em up".
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Mar 18, 2023 01:18
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Sephyr posted:The best authors know how to play with that as it being the core of the Imperial moral blindspot, but it's rarer than it should be. I remember one author even had a good afterword about how when things went to poo poo in the first book, and Horus gave the order to open fir eon another, friendly human civilisation, his command was "Illuminate them!", and how much hubris tha tlittle detail reveals.
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Mar 18, 2023 05:07
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DaysBefore posted:I liked that short story about Vulkan, the leader of what is commonly agreed to be the nicest and most compassionate Legion, stomping a bunch of Eldar children into mush. Do you have any further information about this short story?
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Mar 18, 2023 06:15
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moths posted:E: I'm spoiling that the Emperor was Alexander the Great because that's a pretty big drop. That's not a spoiler at all that's just confirmation of a common sense deduction anyone would make just by looking at him. What I really know is whether he was Napoleon or Hitler
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Mar 18, 2023 17:27
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lonelylikezoidberg posted:Do you have any further information about this short story? Vulkan Lives posted:A single eldar witch remained, her face blackened by soot, her silver hair singed and burned. She looked up at the Lord of the Drakes, eyes watering, rage telegraphed in the tightness of her lips and the angle of her brow. The faltering kine-shield that had spared her life crackled and disappeared into ether.
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Mar 18, 2023 17:56
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Sephyr posted:I love the rogal Dorn short story that is about how he had to be the pretorian because he always so strongly embodied the best ideals of the Imperium and it's a story of him waging a campaign against a human empire that has amazing tactical cohesion and can have fleets just zap in and out through the territory. After the legion finally breaks them and he's negotiating the peace terms, he's all "Oh, you guys will love to be reunited with the human realm, and the Mechanicum will be interested in the tiny implants in your brains that give you that tactical integration!" And they go "Oh those are not implants, they are gene-mods. It was too much trouble to keep installing them so we added them to our DNA" and he just blinks, leaves the room and tells his troops "Kill them. Every last one." i mean thats sorta the point. even the picards of the imperium are backwards monsters who would roast entire worlds alive over some weird tech herecy or because they made friends with aliens. in the world of 40k, their is no outside reference for anyone to look to as an alternative example because those were either crushed in the great crusade or died even longer ago. to make a weird rear end comparison. its like nightmare before christmas. the halloween town folks legit dont comprehend christmass because its so far removed from anything they know or understand. or trying to explain the internet to someone in 18th century.
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Mar 19, 2023 03:53
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War and Pieces posted:
They both were total monsters so he was both of them
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Mar 19, 2023 07:43
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comedy answer, he was JFK
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Mar 19, 2023 08:23
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I'm pretty sure there's a story where Lorgar brings up Big E being Alexander The Great as one of the many, many reasons he's so pissed at him. Half of the old mans personas were people proclaiming themselves to be gods that walk among men that all should worship, and *NOW* the hypocrite has a problem with it?
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Mar 19, 2023 13:57
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You know what, I'd like 40k to quit referencing recent history and start making poo poo up wholesale for the other 27k of history in between. I don't care about some goofy perpetual killed MLK or that one of Ravenor's bunch found a plastic figurine of Yuri Gagarin. I want details on the iron men and various human societies that existed in the golden age.
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Mar 19, 2023 14:25
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Demiurge4 posted:You know what, I'd like 40k to quit referencing recent history and start making poo poo up wholesale for the other 27k of history in between. I don't care about some goofy perpetual killed MLK or that one of Ravenor's bunch found a plastic figurine of Yuri Gagarin. I want details on the iron men and various human societies that existed in the golden age. Thats so much harder to do well
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Mar 19, 2023 14:34
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Demiurge4 posted:You know what, I'd like 40k to quit referencing recent history and start making poo poo up wholesale for the other 27k of history in between. I don't care about some goofy perpetual killed MLK or that one of Ravenor's bunch found a plastic figurine of Yuri Gagarin. I want details on the iron men and various human societies that existed in the golden age. Yeah this could be great if done well. Like in Hyperion there's a part where a military character is being trained in different simulations of old wars to learn how warfare developed, we see all the greatest hits of the last few thousand years but when it gets to our era it keeps going and shows a fictional history/our future, with warfare getting even deadlier and more terrifying.
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Mar 19, 2023 14:36
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Demiurge4 posted:You know what, I'd like 40k to quit referencing recent history and start making poo poo up wholesale for the other 27k of history in between. I don't care about some goofy perpetual killed MLK or that one of Ravenor's bunch found a plastic figurine of Yuri Gagarin. I want details on the iron men and various human societies that existed in the golden age. Check out the short story Ancient History by Andy Chambers. It was in the old Dark Imperium anthology but might have been republished in another anthology or as an eshort since then I am not sure. It's about some press-ganged gun crew during a battle but it turns out one of them is this mysterious dude who somehow knows about the men of iron and men of stone and tells a story to the others about them. It's really good and sheds some more light on that whole thing.
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Mar 19, 2023 15:23
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Demiurge4 posted:You know what, I'd like 40k to quit referencing recent history and start making poo poo up wholesale for the other 27k of history in between. I don't care about some goofy perpetual killed MLK or that one of Ravenor's bunch found a plastic figurine of Yuri Gagarin. I want details on the iron men and various human societies that existed in the golden age. It was a toy rocket with CCCP on the side. So that was just an amusing throw away joke.
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Mar 19, 2023 15:58
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Yeah that was fine like whatever. But their point is right. Same with all the little quotes they sprinkle through books between chapters etc. especially in the Heresy. I've heard dozens of familiar sayings from philosophers in M2, but precious few from M18 or M6 or M28 etc.
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Mar 19, 2023 16:03
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I like it when 40k references real history (my favourite is a HH character bragging about how the Imperium has recovered all three of "Shakespire's" plays) but I do wish they would branch out into the hypothetical futurepast between TYOOL 2023 and 30,000.
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Mar 19, 2023 16:04
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Those references don't really work in the same way, though, since the point is we actually recognize the ones from our history whereas a famous quote by someone in 14k is just a line spoken by whatever character is repeating it in the work we're reading. We don't actually get the reference, and it has to be pointed out to us rather than "oh, this is a Verdun reference" is obvious to us. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for increasing the amount of poo poo that's mentioned from that huge span of time, it just can't be tossed off as a reference if we don't have any context telling us it's a reference. By way of comparison, Ravenor's "Spheres of Longing" works as a reference in the Gaunt's Ghosts series because we know what and who it's referencing.
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Mar 19, 2023 16:10
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DaysBefore posted:Yeah that was fine like whatever. But their point is right. Same with all the little quotes they sprinkle through books between chapters etc. especially in the Heresy. I've heard dozens of familiar sayings from philosophers in M2, but precious few from M18 or M6 or M28 etc. P much only Abnett and maybe Haley does this to any degree. The rest don't seem to have the eye for it even if they are otherwise stellar writers. Sephyr posted:I love the rogal Dorn short story Which story is this? Z the IVth fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Mar 19, 2023 |
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Mar 19, 2023 16:11
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I assume the books are translations and that the translator / editor makes names and references make sense to us . Like the guys name is not literally Ferrus Manus or Angron but something like that.
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Mar 19, 2023 16:13
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habeasdorkus posted:Those references don't really work in the same way, though, since the point is we actually recognize the ones from our history whereas a famous quote by someone in 14k is just a line spoken by whatever character is repeating it in the work we're reading. We don't actually get the reference, and it has to be pointed out to us rather than "oh, this is a Verdun reference" is obvious to us.
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Mar 19, 2023 16:29
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Arquinsiel posted:I think that may be a case of Abnett getting the chance to backfill the silly detail he invented. Yeah IIRC Ravenor didn't appear until years after that book was out
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Mar 19, 2023 17:01
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For my part the repeated references to primarily stuff from the last like two or three centuries of real history in a universe with three or four hundred more centuries of human history than ours takes me out of the stories. It's okay to not understand who the famous M17 Saturnian political theorist Dunkous Flavvington is despite characters in the story getting it because we don't live in their world. It'd be like getting mad that a character in a fantasy story is talking about their fake fantasy history in a way that makes sense to them but not to the reader. We can understand in context that Flavvington is a known figure because the characters in the story quote him with familiarity. We don't actually have to know Flavvington's Theory of Servitor Modes of Production. Edit: also whoever thought to introduce MLK's assassin to the 40k world is an idiot lol
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Mar 19, 2023 17:03
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/19/sunday-preview-commander-farsight-takes-his-shot-at-the-arks-of-omen/ Only one book going up for pre-order next week (at least in English), and it's the paperback/ebook/audiobook release of Shadowsun: The Patient Hunter byt Phil Kelly.  Another kinda boring pre-order weekend if anything.
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Mar 19, 2023 19:12
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they done yassified my tau
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Mar 19, 2023 19:25
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Z the IVth posted:P much only Abnett and maybe Haley does this to any degree. The rest don't seem to have the eye for it even if they are otherwise stellar writers. "Rogal Dorn: the Emperor's Crusader." For those that don't care to be spoiled: "The Emperor has declared that the galaxy shall belong to humanity. The Kapikulu have rebelled before*, they may do so again. I am convinced more than ever that the Emperor did not choose His words without great care. "Remove this hidden foe". Our purpose was made clear. We must remember the role of the Legiones astartes. There is no gain in sparing a future enemy." Keep in mind that the rebellion he is mentioning is the one against their xenos enslavers. Even at the end Malcador is praising Dorn for his "just following orders" attitude and that butchering a sector was totally worth it for these ever so precious precious warp gates that so never become a thing. So yeah, gently caress Dorn and big E, whatever their high-minded drivel. The Khan is the only halfway decent loyalist. Other than that, give me honest monsters that are fun to read about.
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Mar 19, 2023 19:27
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Looking at spoilers for it and its either implied or stated that they were genemodded by xenos during the old night, with further implications that it was eldar. Which is a big nono Who wrote it? Could also be someone just not really understanding the setting because that doesnt really make sense as a justification given you know, the general presence of abhumans in the setting. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Mar 19, 2023 |
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Mar 19, 2023 19:37
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