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chiasaur11 posted:I mean, most Gundam WMDs aren't nuclear. GENESIS, Dainsliefs, Satellite Cannon, Moonlight Butterfly... Solar Ray and Gryps II....
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Mar 21, 2023 05:12
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yeah i couldn't help but notice when i watched turn a that they never really show you how terrifying the turn a's potential is. if anything, i kept noticing how they made it still feel mortal. its gun breaks and its armor dents and there's a very real feeling that loran could genuinely get outmatched pretty fast in a bad scenario, it doesn't punch a wadom and leave behind a big crater in its leg. people talk a lot about how the lesson of turn a is that it's more important that loran is a good person rather than a good pilot, and yeah that's true, but it's not until pretty late in the show that it really feels like the turn a is some megaweapon that could change everything if it fell into the wrong hands. and even then, that's entirely riding off the moonlight butterfly. on the other hand that scene of the g-self is definitely a glimpse into a magical backpack of horrors no one alive can fully comprehend, let alone fight against. idk i haven't seen g reco, maybe in the larger context of the show/movie it's less impressive but i liked the visual direction of that action cut, and gave the g-self a kind of terror that the turn a never got. maybe the turn a didn't need to have the big money shots of how strong it was, but this one was pretty cool i think.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:14
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Solar ray reflects the energy of the sun; the sun that's energy is created by nuclear fusion. It's a nuclear weapon Gryps energy is generated by nuclear reactors. It's a nuclear weapon. The dainselfs are made out of matter; matter that's held together by strong nuclear force. It's a nuclear weapon.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:16
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Gaius Marius posted:Solar ray reflects the energy of the sun; the sun that's energy is created by nuclear fusion. It's a nuclear weapon Does this mean that Kamille's fists are nuclear weapons?
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Mar 21, 2023 05:24
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Domon's certainly are. They're burning red.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:24
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whose aren't?
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Mar 21, 2023 05:24
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All matter is made up of atoms which have a nucleus Every weapon is a nuclear weapon
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Mar 21, 2023 05:34
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Gaius Marius posted:Solar ray reflects the energy of the sun; the sun that's energy is created by nuclear fusion. It's a nuclear weapon That's the Solar System, aka the array of mirrors the Federation uses. The Solar Ray is Gihren's colony laser, which was the prototype for Gryps/Gryps II. Not at all a confusing naming scheme. Waffleman_ posted:All matter is made up of atoms which have a nucleus Gonna casually split some atoms with my harbor freight hammer.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:41
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ninjewtsu posted:on the other hand that scene of the g-self is definitely a glimpse into a magical backpack of horrors no one alive can fully comprehend, let alone fight against. idk i haven't seen g reco, maybe in the larger context of the show/movie it's less impressive but i liked the visual direction of that action cut, and gave the g-self a kind of terror that the turn a never got. maybe the turn a didn't need to have the big money shots of how strong it was, but this one was pretty cool i think. The final arc of G-Reco is basically every faction gaining access to increasingly dangerous black history style blueprints and rushing them into production without a real understanding of what they're actually capable of. That scene where Bellri is firing the photon torpedoes is literally the first time anyone alive has ever seen or experienced anything like that weapon, which is why everyone's reaction ranges from "horror" to "baffled horror". It's functionally equivalent to a bunch of people who have never seen white phosphorous before in their lives reproducing it from an ancient chemistry recipe and the first time they actually use it in action it's being dumped on a platoon of soldiers. Kanos fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 05:46
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Warmachine posted:Gonna casually split some atoms with my harbor freight hammer. https://youtu.be/wRc5eVzEs_0
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Mar 21, 2023 05:58
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Darth Walrus posted:Again, though, this is what happened when Bellri dialled the power output to minimum and tried to lay down some suppressive fire. It's not supposed to be a superweapon, it's just horrifyingly powerful compared to what he meant it to do. See now all that does is make me want to see what a full power Photon Torpedo shot would do if that's it on minimum power chiasaur11 posted:You're right. I was thinking of Cyclops there. (Which I don't think was nuclear, but Gundam SEED technobabble is always a mess to me.) Cyclops was basically an oversized microwave made flashier than what the real equivalent would be* *but then that's the case for almost all Gundam super weapons(and indeed a lot of the smaller scale energy weapons), most of them would be more or less invisible in real life Supremezero posted:Cyclops was microwaves, but it also wasn't remotely a superweapon. From my recollection Cyclops blew up an area more than large enough to count as a super weapon, if more on the tactical scale than Gundam usually bothers with Warmachine posted:I had to stop and thing about that one, but it's definitely not. It's more "hey we built a loving 100 trillion terawatt microwave, and you're the loving hamster." I think we can all agree that it's a good thing that SEED's usage of gratuitous gore is for the most part an extreme outlier in the franchise* *yeah IBO could get really violent at times but I'm using gratuitous in the sense of something being unnecessary or out of place, IBO's usage of violence feels appropriate for the kind of story it's telling(same for say how 00 or Unicorn or Thunderbolt made use of human scale violence or most recently with G-Witch), while in SEED it just feels completely out of place with how toyetic and indeed often almost "kiddy" SEED's aesthetics for both characters and mechanics are or for the show's writing
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Mar 21, 2023 06:25
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Usually, the fancier and flashier something is, the deadlier it is. This isn't a rule or anything, just sort of a thing we casually assume and accept whether we look at it from an in-universe perspective or as audience members. While the visual flair of the photon torpedoes are a little fancier than a beam rifle, the damage it exacts is wildly out of proportion and is pretty gross as a result.
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Mar 21, 2023 06:54
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Argas posted:Usually, the fancier and flashier something is, the deadlier it is. This isn't a rule or anything, just sort of a thing we casually assume and accept whether we look at it from an in-universe perspective or as audience members. While the visual flair of the photon torpedoes are a little fancier than a beam rifle, the damage it exacts is wildly out of proportion and is pretty gross as a result. I think a big part of it is the raw panic and confusion of the targeted pilots, too. Beam rifles and beam cannons are very destructive, but very easy to understand - someone is pointing a gun at you and shooting at you and if it hits you it's going to damage you or blow you up. The photon torpedoes are just a bunch of barely visible magic pixie dust particles that have suddenly instantly appeared all around you and if you touch any of them you die immediately. To me it evokes the same kind of terror that something like a lethal chemical weapon attack would to a person - suddenly the very environment around you has become instantly lethal with little to no warning and there's basically nothing you can do about it except watch everyone around you die before dying yourself. You can't really defend yourself, evade, or escape.
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Mar 21, 2023 15:23
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drrockso20 posted:See now all that does is make me want to see what a full power Photon Torpedo shot would do if that's it on minimum power Cyclops was functionally just a large flashy bomb. You're not much of a superweapon if you only function in the weapons immediate vicinity. The entire purpose of the thing was luring people into it's effective range while it just kind of sat under the base they built.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:02
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https://twitter.com/AEUG_Archives/status/1638172127894577155?s=20
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Mar 21, 2023 16:17
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I'm really disappointed that jerid is losing Also word on the street is someone botted the poll to make ple beat suletta?
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Mar 21, 2023 18:37
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ninjewtsu posted:I'm really disappointed that jerid is losing Jerid losing is a universal constant.
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Mar 21, 2023 18:46
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ninjewtsu posted:it's not until pretty late in the show that it really feels like the turn a is some megaweapon that could change everything if it fell into the wrong hands. and even then, that's entirely riding off the moonlight butterfly. I've seen people say some variation of this quite a few times before and I don't really get it to be honest, because while that's technically true it seems kind of irrelevant given just how closely tied the Turn A is to the Moonlight Butterfly and vice versa. I think maybe part of it is that a lot of people seem to take the impression that the Moonlight Butterfly is a singular weapon that can only ever be used to do one thing at one strength, and with no variation. If you activate it, the nanomachines will eat all technology on the planet and that's it. It cannot do any more or less under any circumstances going by how a lot of people think of it. Which isn't actually true, and speaks to the understated nature of the action in Turn A in my opinion. Or perhaps to how Tomino's shows have always had a tendency to give information in ways that people can pretty easily miss when viewing the show. The Moonlight Butterfly as a system is activated as a weapon several times during the final couple of episodes, with Merrybell testing it out on Earth at one point for instance and the testing covering an entire mountain range in nanomachines and creating an "ionic storm" within short order. Which then blows over a town, though we only see it blow over the town with the implication it's destroyed, rather than it being depicted. It should be noted during this scene that Merrybell is using a SUMO cockpit to control the Turn A since Loran has the core fighter, and he notes that the unit can't be used at full power/efficiency without it's intended cockpit. So you could attribute the variation in power during that scene to the incomplete system. However, Gym also states that he has activated the Moonlight Butterfly during the penultimate episode to eat the SUMO squads i-fields that are being used to hold the Turn X in place, and doing so immediately destroys said i-fields. Which points to another usage of the Moonlight Butterfly i.e. that it can't just be used to eat technology, but to eat energy fields like an i-field, and to do so in a very contained manner. When Gym activates the Moonlight Butterfly it spreads a pattern of light for several miles around, but it doesn't do anything beyond eat the SUMO squads i-fields and even Lily Borjarno notes that it seems like spectacle for it's own sake to spread the pattern around such a large area. Gym also activates a tiny Moonlight Butterfly spread on the back of the Turn X to block some shots from attacking suits at one point too; though I can't recall if it's physical rounds or directed energy weapons off-hand. This also implies that when Loran activated a "ribbon/curtain of light" to eat the Gendarme's missile attacks a few episodes earlier that it was him activating the Moonlight Butterfly to do so. Which would again be a very contained usage of the nanomachines to eat something besides "all technology", in this case the physical matter of the missiles plus the plasma of the flames they produced upon exploding. It's also possible that when Loran throws 2 nuclear missiles at Mistletoe that the energy field protecting the Turn A from the nuclear blast it produced was the Moonlight Butterfly, since there's a multicolored wave pattern similar to the Moonlight Butterfly to the barrier that's unlike previous depictions of the Turn A's i-field (when protecting the field hospital) and neither Gym or Harry recognize the barrier despite being familiar with i-field technology. Which, if true, would mean the nanomachines could eat nuclear energy too. The Moonlight Butterfly is also just used to create wings that allow the Turn A and the Turn X to fly. They both fly without them at other times, but it could be that deploying the Moonlight Butterfly wings means they can fly faster or something, at a guess. They both activate them regardless though, without any fear that doing so will damage other units or have other ramifications. Joseph and Merrybell both use the wings on the Turn A when they have it too. It seems like it's just a passive use of the system. The nanomachines also act as a cloud of tiny remote weapons too, though again, to be fair, this instance only comes up when the nanomachines of both the Turn A and Turn X are noted to be out of control. Still, when the Turn A and Turn X get locked into stasis by the competing nanomachines and Corin goes to break the deadlock, the nanomachines slice his unit in two, which implies they can be used as basically remote blades. The bigger thing I think a lot of people miss though is that the Moonlight Butterfly nanomachines are presumably not just destructive, but also constructive and are presumably the nanomachines that maintain the Turn A itself and are why it can survive for thousands of years without any repair or resupply. I guess it's possible that the Turn A and Turn X both have a second set of nanomachines on board that are tasked solely with maintenance, but it seems unlikely to me just because it's adding more complication to the explanation. The same nanomachines being used to maintain it as to destroy other things just seems a simpler and more elegant explanation. However, the nanomachines that maintain the Turns themselves do more than that though and Dianna points out during the Black History exposition scene that Moonlight Butterfly is the basis for the Mountain Cycles on Earth because when the nanomachines go inert, they merge with the soil and help repair it. Now, there is a data book explanation that the Mountain Cycles were formed by Spacenoids "softly" bringing asteroids to Earth in order to replenish the mineral wealth of the planet, but the two explanations aren't entirely incompatible either since the nanomachines can just be noted to have helped enrich the soil afterwards. More importantly, there's a building impression throughout the show even before the Black History exposition scene that the Turn A is ultimately responsible not for the Mountain Cycles themselves but for all the technology stored in them. It's been a few years since I saw the show so I can't remember the exact details for this, but as a general gist, when Sid first starts digging a Mountain Cycle up he notes that they have a very particular sand like soil composition, and then starts identifying other Mountain Cycles by searching for that specific soil type. When he finds the Kapools he talks about even the air around them smells fresh, despite them being buried underground, which speaks to how good the nanomachines are at maintaining things, since they even maintain the air itself. Later, when Horace and Sid uncover the Gallop and are pulling the protective "nanoskin" off it, it dissolves into what's noted to be a sand like substance too. And the nanoskin on the Turn A is noted to be sandy when Horace and Loran are examining it after the head is damaged and starts repairing itself. The Turn A is only powerful because of the Moonlight Butterfly, but the Moonlight Butterfly is basically the core of the Turn A anyway so it's kind of an empty statement in my opinion. You can't really separate the two out cleanly because the system is so integral to the function of the unit. It's like the Gundam X and the satellite system. Sure, it's a big flashy thing sat on the back that acts as an obvious super weapon, but outside that the unit integrates the system in a myriad of other ways that mean the unit would be almost useless without the satellite system as is. The excess energy from any recharge is used to power the unit's beam sword and beam rifle, the microwave panels on the back allow the Gundam X to fly in some manner etc. When Kid repairs the Gundam X after it's damaged by the Bertigo, he has to basically rebuild it from the ground up because the satellite system is gone, giving it new weapons and thrusters and so on, because the microwave system was responsible for so much of the original design. That all said, while the Turn A without the Moonlight Butterfly wouldn't be a terrifying weapon, it is still pretty strong without it even in animation and Loran uses the beam sabers to turn the unit invisible...somehow, and is then implied to teleport later when the unit just appears in the background of a shot inside a Moon city with a spark of light before zooming into view after last being seen out on the surface. The composition of the scene is really ambiguous, but it is at least possible teleportation was involved. The Turn A also pushes back spaceships multiple times, shoving both the Gendarme and the Willgame; which implies it can output tens of thousands of tons of thrust, since that's the weight range of basically every settings ships within Gundam despite how light mobile suits generally are. Mobile armors often have more reasonable weights though, oddly, with the Big Zam coming in at 2,000 tons for instance. There's no weights for CC era spaceships so far as I know, but every other setting that gives ship weights generally comes in at 10,000+ tons so the Turn A can presumably push at least a few thousand tons of thrust. Which would make it supremely fast if that thrust was applied solely to forward momentum, which is notable given the unit's generator is capable of operating for thousands of years without issue and the unit doesn't seem to have to worry about fuel etc. The unit does appear to move really fast a few times in the last couple of episodes too. Speed is basically always ambiguous in animation, but it is animated to move notably quickly a couple of times regardless. The Turn A also pretty definitely has a psycommu system that is usable by Oldtypes. Which is pretty notable, as a feature. The Turn X has one, which Gym calls out by name, and this alone implies the Turn A has one, since it's based off the Turn X. We can pretty definitively state the Turn A has one though because when Loran activates the aforementioned "ribbon/curtain of light" to protect the Winter Palace (where all the cyrosleep pods filled with millions of people are stored), Harry afterwards tells Kihel that the Turn A is like the SUMO and the strength of the barrier depends on the will of the pilot because the pilot and the system become one when the pilot is aboard. Which sounds like a psycommu system. And also means SUMOs have a psycommu system usable by Oldtypes, as a sidenote. I don't think the animation ever implies any further use of it, though Gym uses his to control the Turn X while sitting with his feet up on the dashboard once or twice and it's likely the psycommu is used to control the shape and power of the Moonlight Butterfly, since doing so by thought would be a lot easier than trying to do so with manual controls. The Turn A's psycommu is used further in Fukui's Turn A novels though, allowing Loran to do something akin to the Axis Shock by using the collective life force of all the people and plants etc. on Earth to power a huge i-field that protects the entire Amerian continent from a shot by the Keilas Guilie; though doing so results in the Turn A's body being destroyed. The core fighter survives, but the body, which is implied to be all nanomachines in that version from what I gather, dissolves as it falls into the atmosphere afterwards. It's worth pointing out here that Loran in the Fukui novels is a Newtype though, where Tomino stated in interview that he thought of everyone in Turn A as people who could awaken as Newtypes in the future, but not actually Newtypes as is. I would personally say that the G-Self has more effective moments in G-Reco that highlight the power of individual weapons, but that Turn A as a show helps build up a more effective mystique and horror around the unit rather than any individual weapons it has; not even the Moonlight Butterfly. Scenes like the Adeskans talking about how their prophecies forsee the Turn A as a destroyer, Meme Midgard (what a loving name) freaking out because he realizes he's looking at the genuine Turn A before it appears in the Gendarme's window with really ominous red eyes etc. really help build the sense that there's something unknown and horrific at play and I think it's more just the understated nature of Turn A in general that mean it doesn't really hit for a lot of people. Tomino seemed to take that on board and make G-Reco a lot more colorful and impactful in general as a response to that too, I think, because Turn A didn't hit with the audience he wanted and hoped doing something different would bring a younger audience in, since that's what he clearly cares about. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 18:47
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I mostly mean that it's not until very late in the show that the turn a is really presented as more than a pretty good robot with the gimmick that it can slowly repair itself between fights. It fits a lot with turn a being a story about avoiding a war rather than stopping one, but at the same time for most of the show's runtime there isn't really much of a sense of awe or terror at the turn a, just some general mysteries about its capabilities. Moonlight butterfly is a pretty late show plot element so the impression I had of the turn a 20 episodes in vs 45 episodes in were very different. I'm not spending the rest of my lunch break reading that entire novel so apologies if this was addressed and I skimmed over it
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Mar 21, 2023 19:14
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Arc Hammer posted:Jerid losing is a universal constant. Just feels wrong if he wins
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Mar 21, 2023 19:17
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Arc Hammer posted:Jerid losing is a universal constant. jerid needs to fail upwards until the very end
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Mar 21, 2023 19:25
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ninjewtsu posted:I'm not spending the rest of my lunch break reading that entire novel so apologies if this was addressed and I skimmed over it I doubt you're alone in that, but I don't disagree with your point regardless and I just spent a lot of words saying roughly the same thing.
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Mar 21, 2023 19:26
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I read the post. The only part I disagree with is brining the Fukui novels into the discussion. I also don't know how much we can attribute the Turn A surviving to it's Moonlight Butterfly and how much to the external nano machines that seem to be involved in creating the Mountain Cycles; that is even if they're originating from the Turn A I don't know if we can account on them still being part of the unit after xxxx years
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Mar 21, 2023 19:59
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I mostly just mentioned the Fukui novels because it's the only place I know of where the psycommu is put to further use, and I think it's interesting in that regard. I wouldn't consider the two to be the same unit at all (hence why I pointed out the differences between both the machines and pilot between animation and novel), and even the Moonlight Butterfly as a system appears to be different between the Fukui novels and the animation; with the Moonlight Butterfly in Fukui's novels being a nanomachine control system that allows it to control any other nanomachines rather than a weapon that can eat other technology. At least, that's the impression I get from reading summaries about it in various places. As to the unit's survival? The Turn A itself is the only unit that's uncovered on screen to not have nanoskin covering it dissolving upon contact with the air; which implies that while the Turn A used it's nanomachines to bury other units and weaponry in caches that became the Mountain Cycles for some unknown reason but that it was able to maintain itself without the use of externalized nanomachines. Which really just leaves them doing the work internally as an explanation. tsob fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 20:10
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Supremezero posted:Cyclops was functionally just a large flashy bomb. You're not much of a superweapon if you only function in the weapons immediate vicinity. The entire purpose of the thing was luring people into it's effective range while it just kind of sat under the base they built. It's a suicide vest, which does kinda make sense when you're on the horribly losing side of a war of extermination where body counts are the express goal. I can't really begrudge them for looking at a high value target and making the decision to rig it with a big loving bomb to take out as many invaders as possible when it inevitably falls. The "Oh and let the Asians and Slavs and other undesirables die to sell the bait" part is a bit more objectionable.
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Mar 21, 2023 21:43
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ninjewtsu posted:I'm really disappointed that jerid is losing From what I could tell in the Mashymere matchup, he had a very solid early lead with a suspicious last-minute swing to Suletta winning (and a higher than usual vote total) which I guess broke the seal for the Ple matchup to devolve into both sides botting. Just kind of a weird damper on what should be a fun thing, hopefully it doesn't come into any other matchups.
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Mar 22, 2023 01:02
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Cyclops is such a waste given that you need to excavate a large space adjacent to the base to put all those microwave emitters.
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Mar 22, 2023 03:58
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https://twitter.com/g_tekketsu/status/1638374943061692416?s=20 pink....
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Mar 22, 2023 04:30
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Pretty interesting take. I'll be intrigued to see what its gimmicks are. Maybe those gold bits on the forearms are thrusters for ultra-fast iaijutsu? That would be the right kind of stupid-cool for a Calamity War Gundam.
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Mar 22, 2023 04:40
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Just make a Vergil Gundam already.
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Mar 22, 2023 04:42
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Mobile suits that use swords in IBO are lame, even the Barbatos got lamer when it used a Katana for a short while. When you have hammers, maces, giant claws and pliers in your arsenal a little slashy sword feels quaint.
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Mar 22, 2023 04:50
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What is with after calamity and giving perfectly good designs atrocious paint jobs? It's insane; I can only assume Big Airbrush is behind this, or the Tamiya lobby, maybe a secretive cabal of handpicked hand painters pulling the handles of power? Whomever is behind this you need to stop. You're inflicting retinal violence upon me, and draining the last vestiges of humanity from my body when you depict such mechanical monstrosities maleficently marked, and so poorly pigmented. STOP THIS! IT CANNOT GO ON!
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Mar 22, 2023 04:52
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Arc Hammer posted:Mobile suits that use swords in IBO are lame, even the Barbatos got lamer when it used a Katana for a short while. When you have hammers, maces, giant claws and pliers in your arsenal a little slashy sword feels quaint. I dunno, the very fact that most pilots can and do use big smashy weapons is what makes smaller ones cool in IBO. It's generally an indication that you're about to see some serious bullshit, because the pilot is incredibly skilled and/or is using some particularly batshit gimmick to make such dinky little toys worthwhile.
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Mar 22, 2023 05:02
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Darth Walrus posted:I dunno, the very fact that most pilots can and do use big smashy weapons is what makes smaller ones cool in IBO. It's generally an indication that you're about to see some serious bullshit, because the pilot is incredibly skilled and/or is using some particularly batshit gimmick to make such dinky little toys worthwhile. Hence, once again, Give me a Gundam that can do a Judgement Cut: End
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Mar 22, 2023 05:03
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Katanas are never not cool. Anyone who disagrees lacks the soul of a samurai.
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Mar 22, 2023 05:04
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Darth Walrus posted:I dunno, the very fact that most pilots can and do use big smashy weapons is what makes smaller ones cool in IBO. It's generally an indication that you're about to see some serious bullshit, because the pilot is incredibly skilled and/or is using some particularly batshit gimmick to make such dinky little toys worthwhile. Counterpoint: Carta had a sword as her main weapon and Mika beat her to a bloody pulp in seconds. Everyone wants to be the Astray but none of them can fill its red clown shoes.
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Mar 22, 2023 05:06
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Fivemarks posted:Hence, once again, Give me a Gundam that can do a Judgement Cut: End Judging by this one's design, it probably is intended to fulfil exactly that role. Using rocket-powered forearms to carve MAs into sashimi with monomolecular Hanzo steel before even their superhuman reflexes can respond.
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Mar 22, 2023 05:07
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Arc Hammer posted:Counterpoint: Carta had a sword as her main weapon and Mika beat her to a bloody pulp in seconds. Right, but even then, McGillis gets his own Graze Ritter in S2 so he can show off exactly what you're supposed to do with those things.
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Mar 22, 2023 05:08
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Imagine how many times a Gundam-sized katana must be folded....
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Mar 22, 2023 05:08
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This sword was folded seventy thousand times using the gravitational fields of twelve ahab reactors. Haha gundam hammer goes crush
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Mar 22, 2023 05:10
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