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Killingyouguy! posted:Just thinking about how I was raised completely without religion so when I entered (public school!) kindergarten and all my classmates were talking about going to Sunday school I panicked and asked my parents to take me too because I thought it was just an extra day of school and I was going to fall behind without it
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May 1, 2023 16:12
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I think my main issue isn't forgiveness. It's finding the courage to face up to my vulnerability.
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May 1, 2023 16:39
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I need to vent/try to find someone who's been something similar and the mood here seems to be  so gently caress it here goes, rambling post incomingI'm quiggy, I was raised evangelical Christian (specifically a non-PCUSA sect of Presbyterianism) but left the faith a good fifteen years ago now. It wasn't a complete Jesus Camp-level evangelicalism but it wasn't that far off either in the grand scheme of things--I was taught that the Bible is the literal inerrant word of God, albeit one translated to English by imperfect mortals. I was taught that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and that nobody gets to the Father except through him. I was taught that God created the world in a literal week about 6,000 years ago, that man did not evolve but was created from dust, that wives should submit to their husbands, that hell is very real and you will burn there for an eternity if you do not accept Christ, that homosexuality is undeniably a sin, etc etc etc. I was eventually driven away thanks to a combination of actually reading non-Christian works like biology textbooks that explained the theory of evolution instead of misrepresenting it as well as my own personal journey of realizing I'm trans and transitioning, an act that fundamentally forced me out of my home church even if I had wanted to stay. Fast forward to today and I'm feeling... I think "spiritually rudderless" is the term I used when talking to my wife. I don't know if I even believe in God or a higher power or anything like that any more. I find myself being increasingly pulled away from Christianity as evangelicalism continues to spiral more and more directly into a new American fascism, and I find myself completely distrustful of organized religion writ large after what I've been through. I'm not an idiot, I recognize I suffer from religious trauma, but being able to point at something and label it isn't actually a cure in and of itself, and there's still a part of me that sometimes causes me to lie awake at night and wonder if my future is an eternity in hellfire. I try to be a good person and to be a net positive on the world in my own little way, but the faith I was raised in said that was insufficient, so that's not much of a reassurance either. I find myself drawn in particular to non-Abrahamic religions of late, in particular Buddhism. My grasp of the 1500 years of Buddhist thought is, uh, rough, but I like that the overall theme seems to be that I am but a singular small part of a greater whole and that I don't need to have the answers--after all the worst thing that could possibly happen is that I die having failed to attain enlightenment and I remain trapped in samsara. Of course there's a lot about this that rankles against my modern conception of material, measurable reality, not to mention that voice in my head that says that any non-Christian faith is a trick by the devil to lead me from the one true path. Plus as a white lady who's lived her whole life in the US, I try to be very cognizant of making sure that I don't columbus my way into a religious tradition I am ultimately extremely ignorant of. And I'm not gonna claim that I've actually decided that yes Buddhism is for me or anything like that--there's a lot there that doesn't jive with me, and I don't know how I can possibly sort through the countless religious traditions that exist globally and either find the one that fits me or that I can syncretize into something that makes sense. I've hit the point where I realize that I cannot ever know the truth and I just don't know what to do with that. So yeah, idk where that leaves me. I feel like I need some sort of structure, some sort of something I can point to and say "this is how I make sense of the universe" and I just don't have that right now, and I don't know how to have that again. I'm sure other people here have had similar experiences and I'd love to here from y'all, but even if you've taken a very different road from me and just want to try to sell me on idk like neo-paganism or whatever I'm definitely down to hear about it. I'm just lost and confused and who knows maybe screaming into the void of the internet will help me find my way
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May 1, 2023 17:21
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Nessus posted:In kindergarten?? Sunday School typically starts when they graduate from the nursery, so kids in kindergarten would have been going to SS for years.
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May 1, 2023 17:21
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quiggy posted:
The little I know about Buddhism has always struck me as very beautiful, and I think there's a lot to be found there. I doubt anyone in the thread will try to 'sell you' on their belief system. I'm not sure a conscious choice of religion is something I could even *do*. Hence why I'm still Catholic despite being very much not really Catholic by many people's standards and having a lot of disagreements with the Church as it stands today. I think you could start by looking around your local area to see if there are any meetings of different faiths you could perhaps go to. Places that would be accepting and welcoming. Go with an open heart and open eyes and see how they feel. I think you'll feel when it's right, or close to right. Perhaps you won't find your needed structure and meaning in religion at all. Maybe you need to look into philosophy or something. There are posters in this thread who know more about that sort of thing than I do, by a long shot. I just know that being who you are, and seeking happiness and love for yourself, is not wrong, and that you are not hellbound. Not a bit of it.
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May 1, 2023 17:51
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quiggy posted:I need to vent/try to find someone who's been something similar and the mood here seems to be If you are curious about details about Buddhism we have a thread here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3914597 which had a book club for a while but I kind of lost focus due to my own defilements and sloth  A lot of it is us swapping practice tips but questions would be welcome and the OP is written by our own Paramemetic, who is an active practicioner. Deteriorata posted:Sunday School typically starts when they graduate from the nursery, so kids in kindergarten would have been going to SS for years.
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May 1, 2023 18:09
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Nessus posted:Yeah I mean more worrying about falling behind in kindergarten. My primary interest in that phase of life was exactly how many dinosaurs there were. But I also imagine it was more of a FOMO thing rather than reasoned contemplation of your possible academic deficiencies. The more I think about my childhood the more wild it gets that my anxiety issues weren't diagnosed until adulthood
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May 1, 2023 18:17
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Killingyouguy! posted:The more I think about my childhood the more wild it gets that my anxiety issues weren't diagnosed until adulthood
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May 1, 2023 18:18
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quiggy posted:Plus as a white lady who's lived her whole life in the US, I try to be very cognizant of making sure that I don't columbus my way into a religious tradition I am ultimately extremely ignorant of. I don't have any advice I just want to say this is a very funny way to phrase this, thank you for this gift
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May 1, 2023 18:29
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Nessus posted:A solid post, welcome aboard! I've lurked the Buddhism thread before and found it very helpful, thanks  If I land on any more specific questions I might pop in there but also I don't know what my thoughts really are other than "hey this seems kinda neat but idk what to make of it", y'know?HopperUK posted:I just know that being who you are, and seeking happiness and love for yourself, is not wrong, and that you are not hellbound. Not a bit of it. I appreciate this (and for what it's worth I no longer believe that even under a literal interpretation of the Bible that queer sexualities and genders are sins) but it does point to the central issue--I don't actually know that I'm not hellbound, and neither do you! None of us truly know the nature of reality and it's maddening
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May 1, 2023 18:34
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quiggy posted:don't actually know that I'm not hellbound, and neither do you! None of us truly know the nature of reality and it's maddening The real God may have only done one revelation to one long-forgotten guy in 5359BCE and may only care about his one commandment to wear tie dye pants every day from birth which (unless you're very very cool) we are all failing at imo it's all equally unlikely and if it does happen I don't think the circumstances have been very fair to us
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May 1, 2023 18:43
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Killingyouguy! posted:The real God may have only done one revelation to one long-forgotten guy in 5359BCE and may only care about his one commandment to wear tie dye pants every day from birth which (unless you're very very cool) we are all failing at I mean, fair
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May 1, 2023 18:56
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quiggy posted:I've lurked the Buddhism thread before and found it very helpful, thanks Regarding being Hellbound it's an interesting question from a Buddhist perspective. Because at least in classical readings (which I personally think are valid if perhaps limited by our perspective) people do get reborn in the hells all the time. But the thing is that you're not there forever. And these are due to the fruits of your action, not the decision of an individual, either explicit (getting judged at the big Jack Chick throne) or implicit (creating the system by which you are going to hell). For me I think a lot about the difference between "a whole heaping shitload of something" and "an infinite something."
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May 1, 2023 19:18
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quiggy posted:I've lurked the Buddhism thread before and found it very helpful, thanks All right, I *believe* you're not then.
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May 1, 2023 19:35
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quiggy posted:I've lurked the Buddhism thread before and found it very helpful, thanks That's why it's called faith, and not knowledge. It's out of your hands and you have to trust God that his judgment will be merciful. So it goes for all of us.
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May 1, 2023 19:40
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I guess, yeah: if you're at a crossroads spiritually, how do you distinguish 'I believe this is true' from 'I would like this to be true'?
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May 1, 2023 20:10
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Killingyouguy! posted:I guess, yeah: if you're at a crossroads spiritually, how do you distinguish 'I believe this is true' from 'I would like this to be true'? I think this is a much better way of phrasing what I'm trying to get at. Like, how do I reconstruct my sense of place in the universe without just feeling like I'm either making up some bullshit or picking an off-the-shelf answer without interrogating it enough?
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May 1, 2023 20:18
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Making up some bullshit is valid imo
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May 1, 2023 20:23
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quiggy posted:I think this is a much better way of phrasing what I'm trying to get at. Like, how do I reconstruct my sense of place in the universe without just feeling like I'm either making up some bullshit or picking an off-the-shelf answer without interrogating it enough? quote:“So, as I said, Kālāmas: ‘Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, “This contemplative is our teacher.” When you know for yourselves that, “These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the observant; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering”—then you should abandon them.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
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May 1, 2023 20:28
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Killingyouguy! posted:I guess, yeah: if you're at a crossroads spiritually, how do you distinguish 'I believe this is true' from 'I would like this to be true'? this is a fuckin mood right here, stupid loving brain, why cant i just be mindless like most american christians eta also these quiggy posted:I think this is a much better way of phrasing what I'm trying to get at. Like, how do I reconstruct my sense of place in the universe without just feeling like I'm either making up some bullshit or picking an off-the-shelf answer without interrogating it enough? Killingyouguy! posted:Making up some bullshit is valid imo p much yes in my estimation; i feel like the best we can do is kinda, like, gently caress around towards right speech and right action and hope it goes well? (i am only being sort-of jokey here)
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May 2, 2023 04:01
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sinnesloeschen posted:this is a fuckin mood right here, stupid loving brain, why cant i just be mindless like most american christians J. L. Borges posted:From the twilight of day till the twilight of evening, a leopard, in the last years of the thirteenth century, would see some wooden planks, some vertical iron bars, men and women who changed, a wall and perhaps a stone gutter filled with dry leaves. He did not know, could not know, that he longed for love and cruelty and the hot pleasure of tearing things to pieces and the wind carrying the scent of a deer, but something suffocated and rebelled within him and God spoke to him in a dream: “You live and will die in this prison so that a man I know of may see you a certain number of times and not forget you and place your figure and symbol in a poem which has its precise place in the scheme of the universe. You suffer captivity, but you will have given a word to the poem.” God, in the dream, illumined the animal’s brutishness and the animal understood these reasons and accepted his destiny, but, when he awoke, there was in him only an obscure resignation, a valorous ignorance, for the machinery of the world is much too complex for the simplicity of a beast.
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May 2, 2023 04:29
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If you do good deeds and avoid bad deeds, you can't lose. If there is an afterlife, or rebirth, you'll surely come out ahead. If there isn't an afterlife or a rebirth, you will get the social benefits of your work, both personal and general. If there are no social benefits to your work, you will avoid the harms that come from doing bad deeds and avoiding good deeds. And if there are no harms to doing bad deeds and avoiding good deeds, then you got to spite the universe.
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May 2, 2023 04:35
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i love borges to pieces but all that made me think of was the wisdom cube talking to meatwad about his amazing 5-page-long vacation plans that he wrote in a fugue state and then lost meatwad: "you lost it?!"
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May 2, 2023 04:36
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sinnesloeschen posted:i love borges to pieces but all that made me think of was the wisdom cube talking to meatwad about his amazing 5-page-long vacation plans that he wrote in a fugue state and then lost
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May 2, 2023 05:11
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sinnesloeschen posted:this is a fuckin mood right here, stupid loving brain, why cant i just be mindless like most american christians You should read “Dynamics of Faith”.
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May 2, 2023 05:43
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I told my spiritual healer "doc it hurts when I do like this" and he said "stop doing that"
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May 2, 2023 08:18
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Nessus posted:If you do good deeds and avoid bad deeds, you can't lose. Woah, this is like pulling a Sisyphus on nihilism. The Camus version of Sisyphus of course. e: This vaguely reminds me of something Tertullian or Origen said. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 13:10 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 11:36
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sinnesloeschen posted:p much yes in my estimation; i feel like the best we can do is kinda, like, gently caress around towards right speech and right action and hope it goes well? (i am only being sort-of jokey here) Well, I'm now fully outside of shitposting and just preaching now, so forgive me, but I really think you're probably going to nail the 'doing the right thing' part, religion or no religion, if you try. So everything else is just the special sauce you inject into your experiences. And everyone has a different taste, and given the likelihood of any of us (or any of the options on the shelf) getting it right vs the likelihood of there just being nothing at all (high imo) then you may as well pursue what feels right simply to enjoy how it feels So long as you don't start like choosing crystals over antibiotics or anything, yknow
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May 2, 2023 13:54
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Prurient Squid posted:Woah, this is like pulling a Sisyphus on nihilism. The Camus version of Sisyphus of course. Interesting with Tertullian and Origen. I have often wondered if there was much cross-talk between Buddhist scholars and early Christian fathers - not that they are somehow 'actually being Buddhist' as that the ideas were kicking around. Most Buddhist ethics are compatible with Christian thought even if the underlying thought processes are quite different on many topics.
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May 2, 2023 14:03
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Thinking things through is important. Sorry that I cannot help too much with the emotions you are experiencing, but I hope that you are aware that you've got people who care.
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May 2, 2023 14:20
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I truly appreciate all the discussion and feedback--and apologize for being a little snarky yesterday. Unsurprisingly one doesn't generally think about this stuff unless they've got a lot else going on in their lives too Re: Buddhism specifically, does anyone have recommendations for a good primer on the subject, ideally written by a well-respected Buddhist teacher and aimed at a non-Buddhist western audience? The Buddhism thread's OP lists Walking an Uncommon Path, which looks interesting, but I have a strong preference for physical copies of books and it looks like that's been out of print for some time and thus pretty expensive to get a hand on. Nessus posted:I would say you would consider it over a long period of time, and you would make trial of various proposals. Pray on it, or meditate, or both. I adore this, by the way. Gonna be spending a fair bit of time thinking on this, I suspect.
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May 2, 2023 14:55
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quiggy posted:I truly appreciate all the discussion and feedback--and apologize for being a little snarky yesterday. Unsurprisingly one doesn't generally think about this stuff unless they've got a lot else going on in their lives too
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May 2, 2023 15:13
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Ah, it's an urban legend dating, perhaps, back to the enlightenment that Tertullian said "I believe because it is absurd". So tenuous.
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May 2, 2023 16:03
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today is the feat day of athanasius, which meant that i got to make the following incredibly tasteless joke OFFENSIVE DO NOT READ: ARIAN SUPREMACY BITHC now i get to listen to how much the church and diocese appreciates the diaconate, who they dont pay and also treat like complete dogshit
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May 2, 2023 18:06
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brb injecting myself with hematite to avoid getting COVID-69
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May 2, 2023 18:08
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sinnesloeschen posted:i love borges to pieces but all that made me think of was the wisdom cube talking to meatwad about his amazing 5-page-long vacation plans that he wrote in a fugue state and then lost Consider that the leopard is the inspiration for part of the divine comedie and yet it understands this not. Likewise Dante's work is the inspiration for numerous other greater and lesser works. From Michelangelo, to Milton, to the awful EA game and even the poem you've just read. And that poem inspired me to write this and share with you some of Borges knowledge. The leopard knew not his role, neither did Dante, or Borges, or even I after I write this, or you after you read it. Cosmological pre-planning on a divine scale and random chance are Indistinguishable from our limited perspective. It could very well be that ten or fifteen years from now someone finds the posts of all you've felt of this suffering and it ameliorates or clarifies their own position. And you'll never know.
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May 3, 2023 03:00
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Nessus posted:If you do good deeds and avoid bad deeds, you can't lose. I might phrase that last line as : 'And if there are no harms to doing bad deeds and avoiding good deeds, then you have done as you wished, which is its own reward.'
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May 3, 2023 03:22
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Escape from samsara this Wednesday my dudes.
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May 3, 2023 08:00
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I mean, I'd love to, but I got worrying about stuff planned for the next millenia or so
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May 3, 2023 08:02
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Do you think Satan says "Not today Satan" ironically. Like Obama riffing off the "Thanks Obama" meme. Or is that what Satan says when he wants a day off?
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May 3, 2023 10:26
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