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Usually it's given out to the saints, usually Saint George or one of the archangels treading on Satan. Striking a blow for truth and justice requires doing violence, hence "striking", if you believe that Christ was calm whilst whipping people and kicking over tables then I will thank you for creating one of the funniest images in the bible. The desire to tear something down can be righteous.
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May 18, 2023 06:45
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“The one error is the belief that violence is a natural and inevitable expression of ill-will, and non- violence of goodwill, and that violence is therefore intrinsically evil and non-violence intrinsically good. While such a proposition has a certain measure of validity, or at least of plausibility, it is certainly not universally valid. It is less valid in inter-group relations than in individual relations, if our assumption is correct that the achievement of harmony and justice between groups requires a measure of coercion, which is not necessary in the most intimate and the most imaginative individual relations. Once we admit the factor of coercion as ethically justified, though we concede that it is always morally dangerous, we cannot draw any absolute line of demarcation between violent and nonviolent coercion. We may argue that the immediate consequences of violence are such that they frustrate the ultimate purpose by which it is justified. If that is true, it is certainly not self-evident; and violence can therefore not be ruled out on a priori grounds. It is all the more difficult to do this if we consider that the immediate consequences of violence cannot be differentiated as sharply from those of non-violence, as is sometimes supposed. The difference between them is not an absolute one, even though there may be important distinctions, which must be carefully weighed. Gandhi's boycott of British cotton results in the undernourishment of children in Manchester, and the blockade of the Allies in war-time caused the death of German children. It is impossible to coerce a group without damaging both life and property and without imperiling the interests of the innocent with those of the guilty. Those are factors which are involved in the intricacies of group relations; and they make it impossible to transfer an ethic of personal relations uncritically to the field of inter- group relations.” From Moral Man and Immoral Society chapter 7 Justice through Revolution
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May 18, 2023 07:05
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Keromaru5 posted:This is where I get especially wary. When people bring up Jesus in the Temple, or this quote from Chrysostom I see come up from time to time (naturally, out of context), it always seems to reflect less a desire to strike a blow for truth and justice and more to just cause some damage, or even hurt somebody, with "righteous" anger and divine endorsement as the excuse. Literally anybody can do that for any reason. I will 100% swear to my heartfelt agreement with flipping tables and chasing moneylenders out of the public space with a whip as a good and necessary public service.
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May 18, 2023 07:17
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Josef bugman posted:Striking a blow for truth and justice requires doing violence, hence "striking", if you believe that Christ was calm whilst whipping people and kicking over tables then I will thank you for creating one of the funniest images in the bible. For another, if this is Jesus losing his temper, and it's something we should imitate, how do we reconcile this with his own commandments against anger and retaliation? If it isn't, then what is he actually trying to accomplish? For yet another... come on, "striking a blow" can't be used metaphorically? Besides, the most significant blows for truth and justice in Jesus' ministry weren't in the Temple: they were the violence inflicted against him in his execution. quote:The desire to tear something down can be righteous.
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May 18, 2023 07:35
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I'm just going to infodump a verbatim Jeff Foster post on the self help industry. I do this as a self help junkie who might have gone a little too far at the moment.Jeff Foster posted:HOW TO STOP GIVING FUCKS ... AND HEAL~ edit: I kind of want to read this out in front of an audience. Maybe I should look for venues? Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 10:24 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 10:15
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Prurient Squid posted:I'm just going to infodump a verbatim Jeff Foster post on the self help industry. I do this as a self help junkie who might have gone a little too far at the moment. There is much truth in that passage and it is worth sharing.
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May 18, 2023 13:20
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This guy saved my life.
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May 18, 2023 13:41
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I don't fully get that Jeff Foster quote, although what I am getting out of it is that he's talking about accepting anger that arises within you, which I guess I am provisionally down with. There is a distinction between accepting the emotion exists, it comes from somewhere, it isn't something that needs suppression, and the active implementation of anger's instructions; you can feel something and not act on it, or act on it in a way that is not driven by the anger. I know the moneychangers tale about Jesus is popular; what do folks feel about the fig tree part?
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May 18, 2023 13:51
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Nessus posted:I know the moneychangers tale about Jesus is popular; what do folks feel about the fig tree part? Sometimes even Jesus can get hangry.
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May 18, 2023 14:42
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Nessus posted:I don't fully get that Jeff Foster quote, although what I am getting out of it is that he's talking about accepting anger that arises within you, which I guess I am provisionally down with. There is a distinction between accepting the emotion exists, it comes from somewhere, it isn't something that needs suppression, and the active implementation of anger's instructions; you can feel something and not act on it, or act on it in a way that is not driven by the anger. I don't fully agree with everything in the quote but the overall formula of not worrying about being perfect and having a perfect life but rather accepting your brokenness is very important. From a Christian perspective I would say it it particularly important because that is what God does: he accepts us and loves us just as we are: broken, angry, sad, sinner and saint alike. We don't need to become perfect before we approach God: we are already forgiven and already loved. We just need to learn to give up our illusion of control and to accept that forgiveness and love and bask in it and swim in it in all of its infinite abundance. That will change us in ways that can be scary but that is OK! Thia is sort of what is behind something else I said earlier in the thread: we need to give up the heavy burden of self-justification and take on the light burden of self-accusation. Stop trying to convince yourself you can be perfect, accept that you are broken, and know that in that brokenness you are still loved and valued completely.
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May 18, 2023 14:45
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Hello religion thread, have a question/request for you fine folks: I'm a den leader for an American Cub Scout pack that is pretty diverse--good mix of boys and girls, but also some folks of color. Evidently it's also (relatively, for Oklahoma, where I live) religiously diverse: we have our Christians, of course, but also "Christians" (people who don't attend church or really even think about religion but are culturally "Christian" by default), Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and some agnostics and atheists. While the diversity is good in and of itself, the religious diversity does present one problem with regard to scouting. The 12th and last point of the Scout Law is A Scout is reverent. Duty to God has been a core component of Scouting since its inception: meetings are supposed to begin with an invocation, a brief worship program is supposed to be part of a camping itinerary, there are religious awards Scouts can work toward, etc. These are all things I experienced as a youth, but haven't really seen with the pack. Well, the problem is obvious--how is "duty to God" supposed to be encouraged, much less mandated, when there's disagreement on what g-/God is, or whether g-/God even exists? I'm a strong agnostic/functional atheist, but religion, and particularly Christianity, does interest me greatly. I approached our cubmaster about how I was a functional atheist, but had given a lot of though to what it means for an atheist to be reverent. I told him about how I revere the Earth, nature, creation--not in some necessarily spiritual way, but more as an acknowledgement of both our infinitesimally small place in the universe and also what should be our role in being good stewards of Earth and all that inhabits it. I told him I was interested in the challenge of trying to come up with interfaith invocations and worship services in campouts, and I am now the official pack chaplain. I need to come up with an invocation for tonight's meeting, which I am confident I will, but thinking more generally I need to start workshopping some themes for possible worship services that fit the "interfaith" bill. "Being good stewards of the environment" is one I already have, and grace/forgiveness is another one (I'm eager to read John 8:1-11 for this one, one of my favorite New Testament passages). If anyone has any other ideas for themes, and especially if anyone knows good scripture to cite from Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim traditions that could fit one of the topics I or someone else mentions that'd be cool as gently caress. I have a passing familiarity with all those religions and am doing some more homework on them, but the depth of scripture is pretty deep and I'd be grateful to anyone who could point me in the direction of things to cite that include some universal themes for everyone.
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May 18, 2023 14:54
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Nessus posted:I know the moneychangers tale about Jesus is popular; what do folks feel about the fig tree part? I'm not Christian but the interpretation I was told is that all of creation, even the fig tree, should have recognized Jesus's divinity and submitted to it. The fig tree chose not to bear fruit for Jesus and was punished And like 'it was not the season for figs' but Christianity holds that human nature is basically evil, so it's not 'the season' for humanity to submit either, but everything is expected to go against it's nature for christ Killingyouguy! fucked around with this message at 15:03 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 14:58
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Nessus posted:I know the moneychangers tale about Jesus is popular; what do folks feel about the fig tree part? God Hates Figs
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May 18, 2023 14:59
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Killingyouguy! posted:I'm not Christian but the interpretation I was told is that all of creation, even the fig tree, should have recognized Jesus's divinity and submitted to it. The fig tree chose not to bear fruit for Jesus and was punished
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May 18, 2023 15:03
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Nessus posted:Seems sus to me. Why punish the tree for acting in its nature? Would he have smote James the Lesser if he had told James to become ten cubits high and James couldn’t? Sorry haha I elaborated more on the explanation I was given in an edit Killingyouguy! posted:And like 'it was not the season for figs' but Christianity holds that human nature is basically evil, so it's not 'the season' for humanity to submit either, but everything is expected to go against it's nature for christ Again I'm not a Christian and don't buy any of this, this is just how it was explained to me as a kid
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May 18, 2023 15:04
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Oh that’s fair. I disagree but that’s more coherent. I’m not as versed on the New Testament as I might be. As for Buddhist input for scouting, Ananda demonstrated a lot of scoutly virtues. Shakyamuni might not be the best direct example as he would be said to have already overcome the scout virtues. But he did fearlessly confront a charging elephant one time, and a serial murderer another. Ananda also persuaded (or seemed to persuade) Shakyamuni to ordain nuns in a time when that was far from the expectation. Shakyamuni even refused several times! Yet Ananda did not give up. This is a form of courage too.
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May 18, 2023 15:23
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Nessus posted:As for Buddhist input for scouting, Ananda demonstrated a lot of scoutly virtues. Shakyamuni might not be the best direct example as he would be said to have already overcome the scout virtues. But he did fearlessly confront a charging elephant one time, and a serial murderer another. Thanks! Got any links to things I could read as part of a service?
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May 18, 2023 15:25
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Judgy Fucker posted:Thanks! Got any links to things I could read as part of a service?
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May 18, 2023 15:33
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Nessus posted:Seems sus to me. Why punish the tree for acting in its nature? Would he have smote James the Lesser if he had told James to become ten cubits high and James couldn’t? This goes with other imagery like unproductive grape vines being pruned and burned. To be useful, a plant must bear fruit. It's not there just to be pretty. Matthew 7:16–20 posted:
The analogy is to unproductive faith. If you claim to believe something but it does not change anything about your life or behavior, what's the point? Your faith is just window dressing, an affectation. It is not real. In Matthew, the fig tree episode occurs right after Jesus has cleansed the Temple. He's making an analogy to the Temple and its leaders. Their supposed faith is empty and vacuous, simply a pretext for cheating people out of their money. Consequently, they will wither and die for their lack of fruit. This is also a foreshadowing of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, which took place about the time the Gospels were being written.
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May 18, 2023 15:44
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Deteriorata posted:This goes with other imagery like unproductive grape vines being pruned and burned. To be useful, a plant must bear fruit. It's not there just to be pretty. What I’ve found is that some people immediately understand the state of being hungry right now and it not being the season for figs and other people do not. It’s the experience of not having a need met and being given a reason, even a reasonable and true reason for the absence of the object of one’s need. The stories interpretation can be a rough indicator of class and privilege. On the Scout thing the tradition of American Deism is another place some folks go Emerson or Muir. “No dogma taught by the present civilization seems to form so insuperable an obstacle in the way of a right understanding of the relations which culture sustains to wildness as that which regards the world as made especially for the uses of man. Every animal, plant, and crystal controverts it in the plainest terms. Yet it is taught from century to century as something ever new and precious, and in the resulting darkness the enormous conceit is allowed to go unchallenged." -John Muir
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May 18, 2023 16:31
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Bar Ran Dun posted:What I’ve found is that some people immediately understand the state of being hungry right now and it not being the season for figs and other people do not. It’s the experience of not having a need met and being given a reason, even a reasonable and true reason for the absence of the object of one’s need. Maybe I don't understand your point here, but it sounds like what you're saying is 'sometimes your needs aren't met but there's a reason for it', ie if you're starving it's gods will. But if it's gods will that there is no figs, and Jesus is God, then why was he mad? Also, were figs the only food available? Isn't more that a want wasn't met?
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May 18, 2023 16:34
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That story has never really sat right with me. In the Old Testament when God smites someone it's done because the person in question did something profoundly sinful--touching the Ark of the Covenant comes to mind immediately. As far as I'm aware Jesus never smites anyone or anything besides that one fig tree, and it's because the tree wasn't bearing fruit? Is that a sin? Are fig trees even capable of sin?
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May 18, 2023 16:37
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quiggy posted:That story has never really sat right with me. In the Old Testament when God smites someone it's done because the person in question did something profoundly sinful--touching the Ark of the Covenant comes to mind immediately. As far as I'm aware Jesus never smites anyone or anything besides that one fig tree, and it's because the tree wasn't bearing fruit? Is that a sin? Are fig trees even capable of sin?
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May 18, 2023 16:44
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Judgy Fucker posted:The 12th and last point of the Scout Law is A Scout is reverent. Duty to God has been a core component of Scouting since its inception: meetings are supposed to begin with an invocation, a brief worship program is supposed to be part of a camping itinerary, there are religious awards Scouts can work toward, etc. These are all things I experienced as a youth, but haven't really seen with the pack. Well, the problem is obvious--how is "duty to God" supposed to be encouraged, much less mandated, when there's disagreement on what g-/God is, or whether g-/God even exists? i was in cub and boy scouts in california for like 15 years in two different troops and absolutely none of that happened at all lol. and i'm not just talking about in my own troop, i went to all kinds of camps all over the state where we'd have a bunch of different troops from all over the place, and we absolutely never began one single meeting with any kind of "invocation" nor was there any kind of worship program that i remember hearing about, though maybe some of the camps had one for kids that sought it out. we did occasionally discuss these issues as a group because when i was in scouts it was during a time when the organization was openly talking about kicking atheists out, and no one in my troops was in favor of that even a tiny bit. and since no one wanted to see that happen i think a lot of people just shut up about it. this probably isn't what you want to hear from the religion thread but my feelings based on my own experience with scouting is maybe think about leaving that stuff alone, because i feel like i actually learned some fairly valuable skills in scouting and if they'd started introducing invocations and worship, i'd have quit immediately and not learned that stuff. maybe just focus on the wildnerness skills and teambuilding. i see the whole "a scout is reverent" thing as a relic from a time when religion - often specifically christian religion - was an assumed "norm" in american society (the other religious badges having been sort of worked in as a display of tolerance and to help spread the organization), and there was a common idea that there was something "wrong" with people who are non-religious. while i'm not an atheist myself, i find scoutings attitude towards atheism (and queerness for that matter) to be absolutely awful, and i hope they move past it as an organization. it's extremely long overdue. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:50 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 16:45
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Judgy Fucker posted:I need to come up with an invocation for tonight's meeting, which I am confident I will, but thinking more generally I need to start workshopping some themes for possible worship services that fit the "interfaith" bill. "Being good stewards of the environment" is one I already have, and grace/forgiveness is another one (I'm eager to read John 8:1-11 for this one, one of my favorite New Testament passages). If anyone has any other ideas for themes, and especially if anyone knows good scripture to cite from Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim traditions that could fit one of the topics I or someone else mentions that'd be cool as gently caress. I have a passing familiarity with all those religions and am doing some more homework on them, but the depth of scripture is pretty deep and I'd be grateful to anyone who could point me in the direction of things to cite that include some universal themes for everyone. https://www.desertlotuszen.org/bodhisattvas-vow.html (I do agree with Earwicker that the religious attitudes in scouting can be alienating, especially without qualification and respect for secular understandings of reverence as well. I was not particularly religious. Some wise words from a secular humanist would also be excellent) nice obelisk idiot fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 16:59
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Killingyouguy! posted:Maybe I don't understand your point here, but it sounds like what you're saying is 'sometimes your needs aren't met but there's a reason for it', ie if you're starving it's gods will. But if it's gods will that there is no figs, and Jesus is God, then why was he mad? If you are starving reasons don’t matter, even if there are real reasons. All these questions are non-sequitur to an immediate unfulfilled need and the anger it generates. With the stories juxtaposition, it’s literally intertwined with the moneylenders in the temple, it’s about our communities and our systems. If we aren’t feeding folks that are hungry right now, if we are failing folks that have real unmet immediate needs right now… We are the fig tree not bearing fruit. We are the money changers in the temple. Our reasons don’t matter. We will be cursed and wither. I think sometimes we forget that we should fear God.
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May 18, 2023 17:10
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Bar Ran Dun posted:On the Scout thing the tradition of American Deism is another place some folks go Emerson or Muir. “No dogma taught by the present civilization seems to form so insuperable an obstacle in the way of a right understanding of the relations which culture sustains to wildness as that which regards the world as made especially for the uses of man. Every animal, plant, and crystal controverts it in the plainest terms. Yet it is taught from century to century as something ever new and precious, and in the resulting darkness the enormous conceit is allowed to go unchallenged." -John Muir Ah, Emerson and Muir are great ideas! Thanks for that. Earwicker posted:i was in cub and boy scouts in california for like 15 years in two different troops and absolutely none of that happened at all lol. and i'm not just talking about in my own troop, i went to all kinds of camps all over the state where we'd have a bunch of different troops from all over the place, and we absolutely never began one single meeting with any kind of "invocation" nor was there any kind of worship program that i remember hearing about, though maybe some of the camps had one for kids that sought it out. we did occasionally discuss these issues as a group because when i was in scouts it was during a time when the organization was openly talking about kicking atheists out, and no one in my troops was in favor of that even a tiny bit. and since no one wanted to see that happen i think a lot of people just shut up about it. I respect your position but will not be leaving the religion thing alone, most especially since I was just appointed the chaplain. One of the reasons I wanted to get back into Scouting was precisely because of all the toxic poo poo that went and goes on in it and trying to do better. As I mentioned in my post, my pack is quite diverse and is very welcoming and inclusive of everyone--we have a cub with pretty profound autism, several den chiefs from the affiliated troop are queer, etc. Obviously my pack isn't bigoted toward atheists since they just made one the chaplain. And your experience was very different from mine growing up  It's cool you had a secular experience in Scouting, but reading basically any Scouting literature at all it should've been pretty obvious the organizations you were involved in were leaving a big chunk of Scouting out. Not that that's necessarily bad, sounds like you got a lot out of it, but religion is most definitely a Thing in Scouting, for better or worse, and I'm wanting to make it better for everyone involved. As I mentioned in my post, I believe reverence is a trait or behavior that even atheists can (and, in my opinion, should) engage in.And I agree on the secular humanism thing, too.
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May 18, 2023 17:11
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quiggy posted:That story has never really sat right with me. In the Old Testament when God smites someone it's done because the person in question did something profoundly sinful--touching the Ark of the Covenant comes to mind immediately. As far as I'm aware Jesus never smites anyone or anything besides that one fig tree, and it's because the tree wasn't bearing fruit? Is that a sin? Are fig trees even capable of sin? The story points out that even though it is not fig season, this particular tree was fully leafed out, implying it was an early bloomer. It should have had immature figs growing, and it did not. It had no figs at all. It was all show and no go. It gave the appearance of a productive tree, but produced no fruit.
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May 18, 2023 17:11
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Yeah like I grew up in the Girl Guides of Canada and like a few years before I was born they stripped out all the assumption that you were Christian* and made the religion badges 100% optional so Scouting Sans God is totally an option. It was super weird and uncomfortable when the old school guiders insisted on us saying Grace at interunit camps I actually had to report a unit I was helping lead for leading brownies in the ancient Guide Prayer in like 2015, decades after they'd gotten rid of it. The brown owl actually seemed to view me with suspicion bc I wouldn't recite it lmao (* the Promise got an option where you could promise to either be true to yourself, your God, and Canada or true to yourself, your faith, and Canada but those were the only two options so it was still awkward in that sense lmao) Killingyouguy! fucked around with this message at 17:23 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 17:13
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Again, the fig tree is him doing something prophetic. Like Deteriorata said, its connection to the Cleansing is not accidental; in Mark, it actually bookends the episode. So in one sense, it's a warning. He often warns his disciples to be watchful, and not be caught unexpected, so they'll be ready for his return--compare to the parable of the ten virgins, who let their lamps go out. If Jesus can curse a tree that's not in season, what about people who could bear as much fruit as they want? In another sense, it's encouragement to his disciples. His immediate explanation is to tell them to have faith; then you can do even more than this. It also feeds back to the warning aspect: have faith, so you'll be ready when I get back. Chrysostom gives one further interpretation: it's to confirm that he goes to the cross entirely of his own free will. He is the Lord of all nature, and if he could make a tree wither, he could surely make short work of Judas or any of the guards, but he won't--and he also would rather not demonstrate that on one of the human beings he came to save. If they arrest him and kill him, it's because he allowed it.
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May 18, 2023 17:19
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Bar Ran Dun posted:If you are starving reasons don’t matter, even if there are real reasons. All these questions are non-sequitur to an immediate unfulfilled need and the anger it generates.
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May 18, 2023 17:24
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Bar Ran Dun posted:If you are starving reasons don’t matter, even if there are real reasons. All these questions are non-sequitur to an immediate unfulfilled need and the anger it generates. OK but the money changers were choosing their behaviour and the fig tree wasn't If you're starving so the reason doesn't matter you're just Angry, but also we should fear God, then what does that say about the anger at starving? That sounds to me like the anger at starving is incorrect because the correct reaction should be fear
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May 18, 2023 17:29
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I like Bar Ran Dun's and Keromaru5's answers a lot. Maybe another lesson in it is that Jesus is telling us that with his coming the world has changed and whatever the season might have been before the season is now now: not later, not when we think we are ready, not when "the correct time" has come but now.
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May 18, 2023 17:29
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Nessus posted:Does blasting the tree produce fruit? No. You’re looking at it as prescriptive parable. It’s not, it’s a descriptive parable. Did angry Brit’s voting for Brexit produce fruit. Did angry American’s voting for Donald Trump produce fruit?
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May 18, 2023 17:53
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No. Ultimately this is probably just an actual point of difference. I understand the point you’re making, I think; I’m just not in full assent with it.
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May 18, 2023 17:58
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Killingyouguy! posted:OK but the money changers were choosing their behaviour and the fig tree wasn't The side with unmet basic needs is angry. The other side should be fearful. The object of the anger isn’t starvation, the object of the anger is at the tree.
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May 18, 2023 18:34
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The side with unmet basic needs is angry. The other side should be fearful.
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May 18, 2023 18:38
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Is it possible the cursing of the fig tree is a relic from the historical Jesus that's preserved for whatever reasons in a couple of the gospels? As others have mentioned it doesn't really vibe with the rest of Jesus' portrayals, could be a contender for the criterion of dissimilarity? I could see a person (including the real-life Jesus) getting mad there wasn't any fruit on a tree when they were hungry, even if it wasn't the "season" for it.
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May 18, 2023 18:45
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Nessus posted:Ultimately this is probably just an actual point of difference. I understand the point you’re making, I think; I’m just not in full assent with it. I think it is an experiential thing. One has had this experience or not. Judgy Fucker posted:Is it possible the cursing of the fig tree is a relic from the historical Jesus that's preserved for whatever reasons in a couple of the gospels? As others have mentioned it doesn't really vibe with the rest of Jesus' portrayals, could be a contender for the criterion of dissimilarity? I could see a person (including the real-life Jesus) getting mad there wasn't any fruit on a tree when they were hungry, even if it wasn't the "season" for it. That raises the question of what are the effects of de-emphasizing the humanity of Jesus. This is a thing that happens with humans. It’s also tied up with politics, this is a proletarian reaction. Historically the de-emphasis of the humanity of Jesus was used to justify religiously the horrors of WWI. The rejection of that by Barth, Barth’s No! expressed in his commentary on the Roman’s and following in essay ( Humanity of God), is the most important theological thing that happened in modern theology. To me the Truth is human, fully human, and that’s not always comfortable to confront.
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May 18, 2023 19:09
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I don't really have any good input towards the scout thing but I just wanted to say hello to a fellow scout. Hello from Finland! As far as I know, our scouting traditions are different enough that I can't really compare. Also, my own groups are religiously really homogenous (like two atheists in the last 8 years, rest at least nominally Christians). I do have a lot of respect for how you're doing things, though! Learning about other religions in the spirit of respect and curiosity is fun and builds peace. The more you know about your own religion, the easier it is to respect others.
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May 18, 2023 19:12
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