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Leperflesh posted:I saw some absolutely incredible student work at the Highlights Gallery in Mendocino, CA this weekend: the Krenov School of Mendocino (https://thekrenovschool.org/) College Graduation Show. I didn't take pictures because gallery shows usually have photos on the website but I've just gone and looked and tragically, no, they only have their usual collection up (which is still cool). Anyway, the grad student work was just incredibly finely put together stuff, mostly cabinets and furniture. There were some of the usual exotic woods present but a lot of california local woods that you don't see at lumbermills, like bay laurel and madrone.
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May 23, 2023 22:25
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PokeJoe posted:Fellas, there's a reason they invented power saws and it's rip cuts 😩 They invented the bigass ripsaw for that. A chunky English 32-inch 4tpi blade will rip admirably and resaw... fine I guess
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May 23, 2023 22:35
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Arsenic Lupin posted:drat, I'm sorry I missed that (I'm local). Next year. If you're local, by all means also go up to fort bragg and go to the Elemental Connections show at TC gallery (aka Tim Carmody Arts) on 324 N. Franklin St., it's through May 27th. There's some really spectacular work there too.
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May 23, 2023 23:06
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Just Winging It posted:I don't get it either. I heard great things about Rowden, David Savage's place, but at 14 thousand pounds for the 6 month course, and 21k for the full year, who can afford that? Certainly not young people (at least the ones without a trust fund that actually need to work for their living) looking to get into the craft, or people already working in the field, because lmao if you think there's that kind of money in professional furniture making. I've heard some pretty reasonable explanations from the educator side of why the traditional model of just having your apprentices do all the scutwork and letting em watch you work in lieu of really paying them isn't an option anymore; and dedicated training requires a lot of one-on-one time and letting amateurs bumblefuck around your equipment creating liability situations that you aren't otherwise getting paid to put up with, but still jfc at that point might as well get a degree in Scythian poetry or some poo poo and hope some bullshit office job will be impressed that you have a BA A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 23:25 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 23:08
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^^The man I worked for always said that someone cost him money the first year they worked for him, broken even the second year, and started making him money the third year.^^ I definitely made quite a few mistakes on his wood and his machines, and I'm glad I got to make those mistakes on someone else's equipment and materials, lol. If you want to pursue a career in woodworking, l think learning on the job is best way to do it. If you want to do it for a living, figuring out how to make a living at it is pretty important and Fine Woodworking can't teach you that. The man I learned from had been making a living at it for 40 years and that approach has been invaluable. As he used to say, you can build the prettiest stuff in the world, but if you can't estimate and price it correctly or nobody buys it, you'll starve. For the professional furniture maker, estimating, marketing, and managing an unsteady cash flow are more much, much important skills than getting a chisel razor sharp. I love the Fine Woodworking way or the James Krenov way or the North Bennet Street School way and they are all well and good and certainly to be admired for their craft, but I cannot imagine building furniture like that profitably. I love a hand-cut dovetail and scraped and planed finish as much as anyone, but 98% of my customers don't care about the things that woodworkers care about. So I use a belt sander and a dovetail jig. The thing my clients care most about is actually the thing most woodworkers like the least-a beautiful finish. Maybe there's a market in California or Boston for beautiful Krenovian cabinets with 100 hours in each little cabinet, but I couldn't do that here and make a living. That being said, if I had the time off and the cash I would totally love to go to a week long course on XYZ. The more people you can watch and learn from, the broader your skillset and the more ways you have to solve any given problem.
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May 23, 2023 23:59
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Oh for sure, I get that you have to deal with the unfortunate reality that teaching woodworking can't scale to larger groups, but you have to wonder at that point whether you just need to own up to it and say outright you're a fancy hobby retreat for finance & tech folk instead of a teaching resource for actual people (aspiring to) working in the field. High-end studio furniture may be cool and aspirational, but the audience that a) appreciates that, and b) can actually afford that is tiny, and teaching with the intent to build and sell 5 figure furniture is uhh... fraught to say the least.
Just Winging It fucked around with this message at 00:07 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 00:04
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Yeah the Krenov School thing, if it weren't for the whole "nine months without income" would be reachable for me as a hobbyist woodworker, not to try to become a professional. Hell, I'm 48, I can't invest 20 years becoming a master and then still have a career as a master woodworker anyway. That's a young person's goal, if it's even possible. The stuff in that show was listed at like, four to ten thousand dollars a piece, and I doubt they make much money even priced at those points. Mendocino is an expensive vacation destination, hotel rooms are $250+ at the little run-down B&Bs in town and in the area, so it's got plenty of wealthy people coming through... the galleries must sell enough stuff to stay open, but I assume the owners own their buildings and aren't getting rich either. And even if you can sell two pieces a year out of Mendo, at $8k each, with months of labor sunk into each one, that's below poverty income. You've got to sell cutting boards and pencil boxes en masse as your main gig, and maybe make a fine cabinet or desk on the side when you have time, if you can make time for it. But as a hobbyist you can just make a nice desk if you want! I'll never be as good as those graduates, because I don't have the time to sink into it, but I've already made a few decent things as gifts for my family and I'll try to keep doing that and enjoy the craft that way.
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May 24, 2023 01:10
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Leperflesh posted:And even if you can sell two pieces a year out of Mendo, at $8k each, with months of labor sunk into each one, that's below poverty income. You've got to sell cutting boards and pencil boxes en masse as your main gig, and maybe make a fine cabinet or desk on the side when you have time, if you can make time for it. There's also sooooooo much more competition at the cutting board/craft fair/street market level. Anyone with a tablesaw and a planer can make cutting boards and get $50 for them. That's great and I'm glad people do that and can make a little money or at least offset some of the expense of their hobby and enjoy it! I figure on my hourly shop rate being $80/hr and I don't think I could sell cutting boards profitably for $50. I have a whole lot more overhead than someone with a tablesaw in their garage, and so I focus on things that someone in their garage can't do or can't do to the standards customers spending a bunch of money on custom furniture expect. The downside is obviously that the higher end of the market-custom furniture for rich people-can be hard to break into. I've been super lucky that I had some contacts from my old job and a close friend is a high-end residential architect who introduced me to several local interior designers. They give me 80% of my work, with word of mouth from former clients and former clients being the rest. I've occasionally thought about moving to another city but the thought of having to rebuild my customer base from nothing is way too scary. Again if I had gone to a school instead of working in the business, I don't think I would have had those contacts that got me started or frankly the skills to talk to designers. It took me a while to understand what they really want is quality and customization, but just as importantly reliability, consistency, and basically knowing that their project is in good hands and won't be a disaster. Anyway sorry for the not-quite-woodworking tangent. I've thought about making a 'the business of ruining your enjoyment of a hobby' thread or something if anyone would be interested-I know there are some other professionals itt and in other threads too.
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May 24, 2023 02:06
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No, that's good insight. My wife is also a ceramic artist, and the high end art field is drat hard too. Some of the potters she knows do production ware and also fine art, and sell the production ware under a pseudonym or different business name in order to not cross-pollute, because snobby art buyers won't buy fine art at high prices from someone who also sells $25 mugs. Breaking into the fine art world requires a lot of hustle. If you're not a "people person" good at hustle, you'll maybe get one piece into a group show now and again, but you're not going to build a name or a clientele. I think part of the deal with high end woodworking though is that you're still probably making functional pieces, unless you're an abstract artist working in wood. My wife works in sculpture and the buyers for that are far thinner than the buyers for functional pieces, or (especially) paintings which are much easier to display, more accessible, etc. It's just tough all around to make a living by making things, I reckon. But you obviously have done the legwork to manage in the woodworking field and it's cool to hear the details.
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May 24, 2023 02:12
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:I've thought about this a good bit, even more lately as I've become interested in pottery and made friends with some potters and I think high volume, low value is not the way to go. I've always gone the opposite route for high value, low volume, and I make a decent living at it in a not hugely wealthy or large city. I think about my potter friends and to take home $5,000, they have to make 100 or 200 sales. That's a lot of coffee mugs and a lot of time and effort spent selling! Obviously with a lower price point, its a product that's much more accessible to a larger potential customer base, but it's still a lot of work. Each sale and each customer involves a certain amount of friction, and I've pretty much quit doing repair work because the effort of meeting with and dealing with a customer is the same if it's a chair repair nobody wants to pay more than $125 for or a new $3000 table. Even if you have an etsy store and never leave your house to set up a tent at a craft fair or talk to a customer on the phone, you've got to photograph all that stuff and put it up online and then ship it etc etc. whereas I can sell one bed and have work for a few weeks or occasionally get work for 6 months out of one meeting with 1 designer. I would absolutely read more about this fyi
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May 24, 2023 02:27
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Contacts are everything. It's something you don't hear a lot of people talk about who are actually working in the field, whether that's furniture or art: how they first established them. Some will have established them through another, related, job. Some will readily admit they lucked into them by meeting someone who got their ball rolling. Some will have them from their family background/upbringing. Which is not helpful to know at all if you're someone looking to get into it trying to establish them. It's kinda discouraging, especially if you're more of a craft/art skill than a people skill person, but making the thing is irrelevant if you can't sell it (in the widest sense of the word). So much expensive, godawful, both in aesthetics and in execution, bespoke furniture gets sold on account of the maker being able to sell it. Edit: but yes, talk about the business-side is definitely interesting. Just Winging It fucked around with this message at 02:42 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 02:38
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:
 I know I'll never make a living doing this, so I like to read about it so I can live vicariously through them.
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May 24, 2023 03:00
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:. Please please please do this. It would be so great to get the collective wisdom of our skilled Maker Goons who manage to make it a profitable profession for those who want to break into that space.
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May 24, 2023 03:15
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Okay I’ll make a thread sometime soon. In the meantime I’m happy to answer whatever questions I can that are more about the woodworking business here so as not to overwhelm a new thread with just woodworking stuff, tho I guess some of it may be more broadly applicable.Leperflesh posted:I think part of the deal with high end woodworking though is that you're still probably making functional pieces, unless you're an abstract artist working in wood. My wife works in sculpture and the buyers for that are far thinner than the buyers for functional pieces, or (especially) paintings which are much easier to display, more accessible, etc. I do everything on commission so I’ve never really made a thing and then tried to sell it or put it in a show or whatever, and I really wouldn’t know where to start on that. ‘Production without sales is scrap’ and I have enough scrap laying around and I don’t need to add whatever weird thing I thought was pretty but it turns out nobody else likes. If things ever got slow I would definitely consider it, but it’s a lot of time and materials to tie up in a thing without a known buyer. Not to mention I know without a guaranteed paycheck at the end I would never actually finish it and the second a paying commission came along it would go into a corner never to be seen again. E: I’m just realizing I never have actually done woodworking as a hobby. It’s always been work for me. It’s a job I’m very interested in and one I get fired up about and I’ll totally spend a weekend loving around with french polish or something for the fun and curiosity of it. I own exactly two pieces of my own work-two small side tables-partly by choice and partly because I never have time. The cobblers children have no shoes and all that. Kaiser Schnitzel fucked around with this message at 03:57 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 03:51
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Anyway sorry for the not-quite-woodworking tangent. I've thought about making a 'the business of ruining your enjoyment of a hobby' thread or something if anyone would be interested-I know there are some other professionals itt and in other threads too. I’d lurk and occasionally post my experience in that
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May 24, 2023 04:01
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Leperflesh posted:If you're local, by all means also go up to fort bragg and go to the Elemental Connections show at TC gallery (aka Tim Carmody Arts) on 324 N. Franklin St., it's through May 27th. There's some really spectacular work there too.
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May 24, 2023 04:13
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I'm curious about the hobby as a business aspect myself, given that I mostly do this for fun but have bumbled my way into paying work for a local business. I'm still doing things under the table but I know I need to go legit soon. I'm definitely struggling with pricing my work to value my time and not price myself out. I'll give an example:  Two 4'*4' storage cubbies: $600 each. Material cost was $450 (baltic birch yikes). Assuming a $50/hr shop rate. I have about 12 hours into them... But that's really only because I'm working out of my house and can afford to do a little bit here and there throughout the process.  Sanding and finishing is easily half of the total build time.
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May 24, 2023 14:40
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Over the past two months I have been trying to figure out how to ditch my career as a computer toucher and start selling wood instead. It's been a series of ups and downs, ranging from "I'm definitely not good enough to sell things" to "nobody will pay me what my time is worth" to "man can I be anti-capitalist and run a business when running a business looks like this? Can I justify selling things at a price point that I, personally, would scoff at? And every time I'm feeling down and lovely about myself, I look at the completely undeserved confidence that Morley Kert in selling absolutely ugly garbage or actively dangerous ugly garbage and that gives me a very big self esteem boost and makes me think that maybe I could actually do this and pay my mortgage at the same time
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May 24, 2023 17:29
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I don't want to ruin a perfectly good hobby, but sometimes I go into little boutique shops and there'll be 8x12" charcuterie boards that are clearly a 2-3 board glueup, flatten, cut to template, roundover, and mineral oil selling for $80 and I question my choices.
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May 24, 2023 17:34
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more falafel please posted:I don't want to ruin a perfectly good hobby, but sometimes I go into little boutique shops and there'll be 8x12" charcuterie boards that are clearly a 2-3 board glueup, flatten, cut to template, roundover, and mineral oil selling for $80 and I question my choices. Yeah, we've all been there. It's ridiculous.
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May 24, 2023 17:34
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Weird counterexample: I was in a boutique shop two weeks ago and there was a good selection of medium-effort cutting board and serving trays and clip boards and all the usual suspects price at like $25 and whoever was making those was way undervaluing their time
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May 24, 2023 17:36
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:It took me a while to understand what they really want is quality and customization, but just as importantly reliability, consistency, and basically knowing that their project is in good hands and won't be a disaster. This bit reminded me of something I read once about Rob Liefeld. If you aren't familiar with the name, he's a comic book artist that was big in the 90's. Consumers loved to rag on him for his dubious grasp of anatomy, tendency to hide characters' feet and hands, preference for slapping loads of pouches on everyone, etc. But he had two key things going for him that made him a success: he had an acceptable level of quality, and he could consistently deliver that quality on time and in budget. So publishers loved working with him. This kind of story holds true in every discipline I know of. Quality is nice, but being reliable and predictable is way more valuable.
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May 24, 2023 17:54
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Made the thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4032684
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May 24, 2023 17:58
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Sockser posted:Weird counterexample: There's a shop in Vermont I love going whenever I'm there because they're firmly in this territory and some of my favorite pieces are from there and were steals.
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May 24, 2023 18:26
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Sockser posted:Over the past two months I have been trying to figure out how to ditch my career as a computer toucher and start selling wood instead. It's been a series of ups and downs, ranging from "I'm definitely not good enough to sell things" to "nobody will pay me what my time is worth" to "man can I be anti-capitalist and run a business when running a business looks like this? Can I justify selling things at a price point that I, personally, would scoff at? the basic dynamic with every craft AFAICT is 99% of non-business customers won't buy anything at any price point that doesn't involve actual slave labor, so there's zero point in trying to compete for their money. The remaining 1% will spend a shocking amount of money per-item but you've got to be able to offer something that can't be had cheaply elsewhere - either something truly unique they're excited to pay a premium for (this will apply to maybe a dozen people a year, better make it one hell of a unique item); a high degree of customization that can't be had through mass-produced goods (you make their ugly coffee table the way they want it, not the way you want it); a prestigious investment piece (your "deconstructed cutting boards" are in all the right New York galleries because your daddy is on Epstein's flight logs); or an emotional relationship with the work and the artist (you're really good at convincing random internet people you've never talked to that you're their best friend). If you're shooting to make a living selling cutting boards, $80-$270 is a perfectly reasonable price point when you factor in how many you're going to actually sell, at any price and how much you need to make to not be homeless. Don't like it? Get a day job and buy your cutting board for $12 at Target. The trick to making a living isn't doing the fuckin glueups, it's making a case for why anyone should buy from you at all rather than Target. pre-Covid I was approaching something like a livable income from my woodworking side gig by turning out a line of funky art pieces I had zero competition on, I made all my money like four days out of the year at a couple of big art fairs where I'd clean the gently caress up and then spend the rest of the year making new stock and keeping afloat with odd computer jobs. Then all the art fairs shut down, and they never bounced back. Most of what I sell now is commissioned work for other businesses, lots of stuff where I'm making part of a bigger-ticket item that can get bundled up and sold for a huge amount of money. Lemme tell you, if you think computer nerd poo poo is boring try making frames in bulk. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 19:41
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A co-workers husband was making CNC router kids piggy banks out of MDF. He'd make them as dinosaurs, about 24" tall, route out the path the coin would take, and the belly would be a clear plastic bowl. They'd spray them fun colors and they sold awesome. They'd drive around on weekends to craft shows in the Midwest and sell a shitload of piggy banks. His take on it was anything that sells well will get copied by everyone else at the craft shows, so he found a niche that was a bit more expensive to get into (special equipment).
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May 24, 2023 21:06
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worth a shot but the real problem isn't some kid with a jigsaw trying to imitate you, it's the guys who'll order out to China for 5000 copies of your thing to try and eat whatever niche you created, and they definitely have access to a CNC router.
A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 02:50 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 02:12
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I made a low workbench for my balcony
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May 25, 2023 02:43
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I hope it serves you well, Pokey. The size of my workbench has been nothing but fantastic for the constant size increase my projects suffer from. Toss a bass on each side for loving about time  Using the full length. Had the kid’s bike up there the other day. Just so god drat useful. 
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May 26, 2023 02:04
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They don't call them supercarriers for nothing.
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May 26, 2023 02:53
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I've got my stacking bookcase completed. It's a inefficient design in terms of the amount of wood required for a bookshelf, but I really like the effect. The main wood is cherry and the base is walnut. The background for the marquetry door panels is walnut burl. I used burl and cherry offcuts to make the checkerboard pattern for the pull out liquor shelf. The other compartments behind the doors are just empty, they're drilled for shelf pins, but I am waiting to see if my wife wants any shelves in it before I build them. I'm very happy with it overall, I'm a bit sick of cutting dovetails so I certainly will not be cutting any for a while.     
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May 26, 2023 23:21
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Wow.
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May 26, 2023 23:34
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Meow, your work is breathtaking.
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May 26, 2023 23:53
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That's fantastic. Man. All those dovetails. The backing wood behind the top shelves is super nice. The inlay is of course very impressive. I love the little checkerboard pull out. I like that it's on feet, if it was just flat on the floor it'd have a really heavy feel but being up on a stand makes it look a little lighter.
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May 27, 2023 00:21
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Jesus Christ dude
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May 27, 2023 06:22
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Thanks all, I'm aiming small for my next project.
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May 27, 2023 14:22
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I love the little pullout shelf. That’s a fun idea.
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May 27, 2023 14:38
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That's some tasty furniture you made, the bevel on the inside is a neat touch.
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May 27, 2023 14:51
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Meow meow meow as usual making absolutely stunning pieces. I made some quick boxes a la matthias for our ridiculously deep cabinet next to the stove. Instead of the sliding hook like he did, I was lazy and just put magnets in a little slot. All the wood for the sides was from an old pine desk that my sister has had for ~25 years but didn't need anymore.     https://i.imgur.com/HcSW3uB.mp4
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May 27, 2023 22:01
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Crafty goons, has anyone made a gaming table? I'm considering making one. Preliminary specs: - 4 - 6 people - Cards, board games, and possibly tabletop RPGs - Not necessarily multi-use (doesn't need to serve as a workbench, and I definitely don't want it to be a table people eat off of) A friend of mine suggested a round tabletop. What kinda size would I be looking at? How much space do six people need? I usually like nice hardwood or hardwood plywood tabletops, but I'm not married to any particular implementation, and this won't need to bear any significant load. I think it would just need to be relatively dent resistant and flat, and would be either finished or painted. Strongly leaning towards something that can be easily stowed away. Possible tabletop construction types off the top of my head: 1. Paneled hardwood - pricey, heavy. Would look nice and could be repurposed, given away, sold, whatever 2. Mostly-hollow - Maybe 1/4" baltic birch face on a simple 1x1 webbing? 3. Cedar dog ear panel - Relatively cheap and lightweight? What's your advice on something like this?
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May 28, 2023 20:53
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