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I have a strong hunch that the army of the Others will (would) include a live human Quisling contingent, probably the remnants of the Bolton/Karstark camp once they get desperate enough and out of options. Craster being the setup for that.
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Jun 2, 2023 09:32
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banned from Starbucks posted:wish his publisher would just grow a pair get their advance back and drop his rear end. what a joke they are I assume they've run the numbers and decided it was worth it to maintain the relationship and publish all his spin-off fake histories, encyclopedia, stuff rather than forcing a breach.
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Jun 2, 2023 12:29
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banned from Starbucks posted:wish his publisher would just grow a pair get their advance back and drop his rear end. what a joke they are You can't get advances back, and he still makes them an absolute shitload of money. People seem to have this image of publishing that is about a century out of date. And he's probably not even in contract! He delivered the three books he originally promised, and is successful enough that no publisher can force terms on him.
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Jun 2, 2023 14:29
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Publishers rely on people like GRRM to continue to exist while they churn out tons of new books hoping for the next big thing. It's the same reason Rothfuss hasn't been dumped by his publisher despite doing even less than GRRM.
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Jun 2, 2023 14:50
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lol speaking of Rothfuss https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/05/22/a-new-patrick-rothfuss-kingkiller-chronicles-book--is-coming-out-this-year/?sh=7e46f4b51561
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Jun 2, 2023 21:24
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So he can't have the 'gently caress you' money of Martin. Is it just colossal writers block on his part? Personally I got as far into "The Wise Mans Fear" as the protagonist goes to alt-Hogwarts before noping out. Wasn't impressed.
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Jun 2, 2023 22:54
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I think a lot of the questions around Bran can't be answered until we find out whatever the gently caress is up with Bloodraven. His motivations seem unclear to me and I imagined we'd get a clearer pic of them if we ever got more Dunk and Egg or even Fire and Blood but lol, with House of the Dragon now the odds of even those - things I'd say Martin honestly might have written or outsourced - will never happen. On the one hand, all his stuff as the Three Eyed Crow and with Bran and taking the Black willingly suggest he's all about the Realm and fighting the Others. On the other, his insane hate-boner for the Blackfyres suggests that he really is just a Targ loyalist and ultimately a partisan. Or maybe there's more to the Blackfyres than just a mere succession dispute and that would tie in with FAegon or something. Point is, we don't know, and never will, but I really don't think we can understand much of whatever Martin had planned for Bran without understanding more of what he was doing with Bloodraven. And we never will. Lol. Lmao, even.
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Jun 2, 2023 23:02
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Bran himself is the TEC though.
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Jun 2, 2023 23:04
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Hm? It's Bloodraven. Although I actually was going to say, given his sci-fi background, I could almost see Martin having Bran and Bloodraven being some kind of causality loop. Bloodraven legit was a partisan who just was fiercely loyal to the Targs, ends up going North, somehow plugging into the weirwood net, and being taken over by the time-traveling consciousness of Bran, hence his change in perspective. Then ages later he grooms Bran to take his place and complete the time loop or whatever. Although Bloodraven has enough magical weirdness going on even before loving off North that I don't think it checks out.
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Jun 2, 2023 23:07
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All anyone else knows is what Bran has told them, so they accidentally confirm his mistaken identification of the TEC with Bloodraven in their minds and in his own. The CotF are not familiar with “the three‐eyed crow”. quote:"No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you." Even Bloodraven is confused by it and thinks that Bran is asking him if he is a man of the Night’s Watch. quote:"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. e: Also Coldhands quote:Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?" Platystemon fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jun 2, 2023 |
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Jun 2, 2023 23:23
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:The show made the Game of Thrones, not the Song of Ice and Fire, the main plot. Cersei, not the Night King or whatever, was the final boss. You say that, but ignoring show and focusing on my book knowledge... I'm extremely invested in the Games of Thrones, and give 0 shits about the Others Queen Margaery, First of Her Name, can point the idiot dragon lady at the boring hell zombies and take the stark pack with her on this one way trip, it's consistently the boringest poo poo compared to the gaming and throning like does anyone actually prefer Jojen Paste and oops I died vs poo poo like practically every Cersei chapter Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jun 3, 2023 |
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Jun 3, 2023 03:59
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The idea that Bloodraven is obsessed with taking the throne is weird to me because when you've become a time-ascending entity why would you care about sitting in one place and ruling over regular people? Maybe if it's seen as a means to more effectively gather resources and knowledge to become more powerful maybe.
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Jun 3, 2023 16:12
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:You say that, but ignoring show and focusing on my book knowledge... I'm extremely invested in the Games of Thrones, and give 0 shits about the Others the lack of interaction between the plots is not great if like 90% of the chapters are going to be gaming and throning, but the resolution of things is going to be through the 10% of chapters that aren't, then the Others should be involved in the gaming and throning somehow. maybe they are, in gurm's head but not yet on the page, but at this point that doesn't matter and will feel like an asspull if he does it unless there's some string of clues that the obsessive asoiaf analytical experts have totally missed in the existing books
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Jun 3, 2023 16:26
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bloodraven already sits in one place and controls people, the show gives the only plausible reason for bloodraven/'the collective of greenseers past and present' seek to control the iron throne, assuming it's even a book thing, and the reason is basically 'taking control of the dragons', or more broadly basically reclaiming westeros after losing it twice, once to the first men and a second time to the valyrians and their dragons, basically the whole song of Ice and fire thing you know, the COTF 8000 year plan which backfired at least once, it's kinda like ASOIAF is a sequel to gurms "and a seven times never kill man", the little wookies get wiped out so they try to mind control the invading humans, it backfires, thousands of years later even more technologically advanced humans invade and they are unaware of the wookies and their mind control and collective minds, bloodraven is a bit of a wildcard but he has multiple personal agendas on top of being hooked up to the weirnet and no longer being an autonomous being.
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Jun 3, 2023 16:26
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Jazerus posted:the lack of interaction between the plots is not great I kinda see the intent of everyone is ignoring this world ending event because they are busy gaming and throning as the general idea. But some of the gaming and throning people need to realize that to tie the others in better. So far Stannis is the only one that was involved in the political stuff and changed gears. But the problem is then we got several new characters/plots to follow which are tipping thing back to politics. So rather than letting the others become more prominent, it's keeping the focus on the wrong bit. So it will feel like an rear end pull in the end. And maybe that realization is why he's never gonna write the last two books.
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Jun 3, 2023 22:47
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von Metternich posted:More seriously, I don't think there's any way the elements that Dany dies, Bran becomes king, and Sansa becomes queen of an independent North, can happen together. The LEAST stupid way that can happen is "we won the war against the Others so now we get along and we're willing to ignore the rules we spend 5,000 pages contesting" It could happen...with like 5 more books and a LOT of set up and events that are likely nothing like what the HBO show gave us. More likely versions of it happen, but it is not the exact paradigm we got in the show because that whole thing is fuckin nonsense. In the space currently allotted, I think Dany going Mad Queen and getting offed is the most likely thing to happen and has been foreshadowed to hell. With the info we know "Bran becomes king" is -- as people have said -- much more likely in the sense of "Bran fully actualizes as a telepath and possesses Young Grif or whoever as his puppet", there's 0% chance it's because the most hated man in the realm gives a speech that's basically "why the gently caress not". Sansa becoming the Queen of the North would likely need the most work of this bunch and the quickest shortcut would likely be something like "a resurrected Jon reveals himself to be the son of Aegon and new King in the North then declares Sansa his heir before killing Dany and self-exiling" move (and tbf would fit with the whole MO of Jon's chapters which are often him breaking the mold to change how the entire North works, key one being working with the Wildlings obviously). Also a lot of this would likely be contingent on a lot more deaths, like the token deaths we got in the Long Night and final war would have to be eclipsed, we're talking major houses either being wiped out and replaced by secondary/tertiary houses or like houses being taken over by like a third cousin who they scrounge up who is loyal to whoever the new King is. In order to get to the literal situations of "Bran crawls his way out of the caves to sit on the Iron Throne" and "Sansa is the Queen in the North but somehow not allied with her remaining living brother, and nobody sees this as a massive problem" that's where you would need several more books and a lot of weird machinations to happen. Like you could probably theory craft some way it could eventually happen but not in 2 or even 3 more books, you'd basically need to do sharp turns with all of these stories starting immediately in the next book while jettisoning a bunch of active plotlines to even hope to make that look organic in that timeframe.
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Jun 5, 2023 04:23
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von Metternich posted:Jon is going to flex his hand a LOT. Because he burned it, and it gets stiff, you see. This will lead to the defeat of the Others. There were real medieval kingdoms that were essentially split by siblings. The idea could be that they understand the North is always gonna be fiercely independent and somewhat ungovernable, so better to let it do its own thing and be allies. Have to keep in mind that a lot of medieval monarchs don't think about what will make a more powerful nation, but what will be better for their own dynastic line. In the books that will never be written there could easily be some setup for this with the North making some deal about smashing the Ice Zombies. Sansa gets to rule because everyone else is dead, Bran is king, and Jon is bastard/Night's Watch/Targaryen depending on who is asking, but is not really in line. We can assume Rickon dies or is forgotten. As for Bran being king, it is a good way to get the electoral monarchy going. I understand Bran is paralyzed below the waist, so he's not gonna gently caress and have kids. If this electoral monarchy thing is going to work, then having the king being unable to conceive a natural heir will ensure that there will at least be a way to transfer power away from the Starks in the future. There were electoral monarchies on Earth and sometimes they would support a weak ineffectual king because that means greater power lies in the hands of his electors, and that he will be unlikely to establish a ruling dynasty that stays in power. King Bran can make sense. The show basically eliminated most of the minor nobility but if enough of them agree that he is good enough to stop fighting the war over then I can see it happening. Bran would be beyond getting revenge for grudges and a way to move on. As the show sets it up, Tyrion is the real king anyway and Bran is just the figurehead. Mr. Grapes! fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jun 5, 2023 |
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Jun 5, 2023 09:30
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I could see Bran being ok with Queen Sansa because there are very high odds she never has an heir given her mountain of trauma, particularly at Ramsay's hands, and that the North will end up his anyways either directly or because Sansa's successor will be a puppet.
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Jun 5, 2023 17:18
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nobody cares about the north. it is not self-sufficient for years at a time and is at the mercy of the reach and other food exporters. cregan stark gave up to aegon the conqueror without a fight because holding the south means holding the north, as much as the north hates it. it's simply meaningless for bran to give a poo poo about it beyond caring about his family retaining its position, especially if he can just hodor anybody he wants up there anyway
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Jun 5, 2023 17:26
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Presumably in the books that will never be written, there would have been more time spent on Sansa's ascent to power. It's one of the themes in the show that would have been fleshed out in the books. She defeats Ramsay and Littlefinger and the show never really spent time on the political repercussions because the show was bad at that point.
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Jun 5, 2023 17:52
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The North is both not able to feed itself and also able to field 3000 knights and like 10x that in infantry. This GRR guy is not very good with numbers I think.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:47
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Evil Fluffy posted:I could see Bran being ok with Queen Sansa because there are very high odds she never has an heir given her mountain of trauma, particularly at Ramsay's hands, and that the North will end up his anyways either directly or because Sansa's successor will be a puppet. Sansa, as I recall, has never met Ramsay in the books, and definitely hasn't been traumatized by him.
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Jun 5, 2023 21:54
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bone emulator posted:The North is both not able to feed itself and also able to field 3000 knights and like 10x that in infantry. The North is also like the size of all of South America or some bullshit so these numbers are minuscule. The GRRM is in fact really horrible with numbers. You hate to see it, folks.
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Jun 6, 2023 00:12
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The North should be totally reliant on southron granaries when winter comes, if not outright uninhabitable, but I’m pretty sure that that’s not what Martin was thinking, and it’s not why Cregan knelt.
Platystemon fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 6, 2023 |
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Jun 6, 2023 00:21
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The GRRM is, shockingly, also bad with numbers when it comes to time, as well as with height (the wall, Hightower, etc), and land area (everything).
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Jun 6, 2023 00:22
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bone emulator posted:The North is both not able to feed itself and also able to field 3000 knights and like 10x that in infantry. Hey, north of the Wall it's even MORE inhospitable and frigid and somehow they are able to support endless hordes of wildlings, plus giants & mammoths who must be really good at dieting.
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Jun 6, 2023 00:54
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George tosses the five‐year gap. Stannis’ army was wrecked at the Blackwater. George need Stannis to rout the wildlings and threaten the Boltons. “Somehow, the Mountain Clans returned.”
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Jun 6, 2023 00:58
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I mean the issues with the North in Winter are just a microcosm of the rest of Westeros. I honestly don't mind all the other ridiculous numbers he uses, those largely are flavor and don't meaningfully impact things or break immersion too much for me since they are also part and parcel of fantasy by and large, but like the years-long winter and somehow humanity has survived is where I take issue. A years-long winter for most of the world north of the equator would be apocalyptic IRL with our current level of technology and food production and preservation technology. Unless Westeros has some kind of magical - literally or metaphorically - crop that can like keep for years in a granary or be grown year-round regardless of weather, then there's no real way humanity isn't dying out after a winter or two. And if such a food did exist, it's weird he never mentioned it, and also weird that winter is such a big deal still since that would absolutely blunt the what is probably worst aspect of winter for an agrarian society. Like "winter is a Thing" is one of the core conceits of the setting and it's also absolutely not thought out in the slightest. That's a problem in a way that the Wall being too big or Westerosi history being too ancient is not.
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Jun 6, 2023 01:52
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George foreshadowed the end of the series in the first book. Rocks fall; everyone dies. Common Red Comet ‘W’.
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Jun 6, 2023 04:55
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How people survive winter is one of the few things Martin did think about. Basically the South doesn't get too cold, and the north has greenhouses. Is it realistic? No. But at least he thought about it at all, unlike the life of the Wildlings, the size of any landmass or building, large thriving cities in the middle of the desert without any agriculture, half the women dying in childbirth, and people in a war just utterly depopulating the countryside to no ill effect.
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Jun 6, 2023 06:10
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pidan posted:How people survive winter is one of the few things Martin did think about. Basically the South doesn't get too cold, and the north has greenhouses. Is it realistic? No. But at least he thought about it at all, unlike the life of the Wildlings, the size of any landmass or building, large thriving cities in the middle of the desert without any agriculture, half the women dying in childbirth, and people in a war just utterly depopulating the countryside to no ill effect. Oh no, this last one is something that has been commented on by someone in-book at some point.
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Jun 6, 2023 12:58
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Mad Hamish posted:Oh no, this last one is something that has been commented on by someone in-book at some point. Isn’t it like the whole point of the Brienne chapters? How utterly hosed the regular folk are
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Jun 6, 2023 13:22
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Yeah I might take back that last one. I was thinking about how even the city people and nobles should run out of food pretty quickly if they get all the peasants killed, but I think that does come up a few times. Riots in King's Landing and such.
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Jun 6, 2023 14:19
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I mean the issues with the North in Winter are just a microcosm of the rest of Westeros. I honestly don't mind all the other ridiculous numbers he uses, those largely are flavor and don't meaningfully impact things or break immersion too much for me since they are also part and parcel of fantasy by and large, but like the years-long winter and somehow humanity has survived is where I take issue. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomme_de_terre Luckily the southern hemisphere invented a solution to this problem, one that grows in the north too
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Jun 6, 2023 14:20
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TK-42-1 posted:Isn’t it like the whole point of the Brienne chapters? How utterly hosed the regular folk are Arya's aCoK chapters delve into it as well.
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Jun 6, 2023 14:27
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pidan posted:Yeah I might take back that last one. I was thinking about how even the city people and nobles should run out of food pretty quickly if they get all the peasants killed, but I think that does come up a few times. Riots in King's Landing and such. Not in Fire & Blood it doesn’t. The Riverlands fight three kingdoms at the same time, on their own territory, lose catastrophically in many battles, but the muppets just keep coming up with more troops.
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Jun 6, 2023 23:06
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Platystemon posted:The North should be totally reliant on southron granaries when winter comes, if not outright uninhabitable, but I’m pretty sure that that’s not what Martin was thinking, and it’s not why Cregan knelt. The duration of winter and the sheer volume of snowfall it gets would make it unlivable. Smaller and even mid-sized plants would be crushed and smothered by the weight of the dozens of feet of snow that builds up and even larger trees that somehow seeded and grew for decades between winters would die out due to being frozen and deprived of sunlight for years. Buildings would need to be constructed with magic or extremely impressive levels of engineering because a few feet of snow can collapse a modern building's roof. Some peasant hovel with a thatch roof is beyond hosed. Houses would need to be bunkers because if the snow can get as deep as Winterfall's outer walls then it's too deep to just keep your roof cleared off and free of all that weight. Mole Town would die in winter, full stop. Underground town in an area with snowfall that makes Buffalo look like Death Valley? You'd better have some magic fungus and cave plants down there to purify and move the air otherwise you suffocate after the snow plugs up all your vents since IIRC, there's no mention of the place having entrances built into steep hillsides or cliffs that would remain free of snow but rather dug straight into the ground as if GRRM had tried Dwarf Fortress for 5 minutes and thought "ah yes, dig straight down and everything is fine." The best part about when someone like GRRM (or Rothfuss  ) get praise for their excellent world-building is that more often than not, the world they made is a completely jumbled mess of nonsense that doesn't even try to play the "it's magic, I ain't got to explain poo poo" card, let alone play it effectively.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:26
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Sad to see so many brains rotted by the disease of "world building". A novel doesn't have to be realistic.
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Jun 8, 2023 00:57
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mossyfisk posted:Sad to see so many brains rotted by the disease of "world building". Yeah, it's not hard sci-fi (maybe it is though? go team sweetrobin) and the evocative nature of GRRM's "world" is a big big part of what makes the novels cool, I said this before but of all the faults with gurms writing (and no writing) the world having a touch of a non-plausibility is like... it's not even a fault, it's a feature of his writing, it's actually pretty drat cool and part of the fantasy of the setting, when you close your eyes and imaging Jon at the top of the wall it's "cool", it's a "woah" moment, and I really doubt anyone who bothered to read all five books was actually bothered by the lack of realism, it doesn't detract from the experience that the wall is 3 times as tall as it 'needs' to be.
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Jun 8, 2023 07:34
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