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disposablewords posted:Oh yeah. The first half of the book spends a lot of time in Leto's head, showing how he comes so close to abandoning everything and taking his family into hiding in exile, realizing that there's no good that will ever come of the trap that is Arrakis. But he keeps walking forward deeper and deeper into the trap because of his pride and his hatred. It's some real good stuff, Leto wrestling with his flaws and losing - and knowing he's losing - and no adaptation has really done it justice. sebmojo posted:The more unbelievable thing is that they had no hint of the attack, given how much organisation it would have taken and how good their spy network was supposed to be
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Jun 8, 2023 22:18
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Oh, no, Leto's not a fool. But his pride and anger do get the best of him at the worst times. One of the bits that really stuck with me, he's starting to seriously consider just abandoning everything but then the hunter-seeker drone goes after Paul and he spends the next while internally raging how they went after his son. Even though it's something he knows should always be on the table, stuff like that obliterates his ability to back down even for the safety of Jessica and Paul. He's smart but got outplayed because he's not quite the same level of ruthless.
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Jun 9, 2023 00:09
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IMO Leto played his hand correctly. There wasn't really a better option available to him.
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Jun 9, 2023 02:27
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Do shields transfer momentum? If a car hit you while you had shield would you get pancaked against the inside of the shield or what?
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Jun 9, 2023 03:38
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Arglebargle III posted:IMO Leto played his hand correctly. There wasn't really a better option available to him. Pretty much. If everyone powerful is out to get you, sometimes that just means you're getting got.
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Jun 9, 2023 04:14
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The atreides knew the hit was coming, but they were unsure as to when, which motivated the attacks to the spice silos in salusa secundus to gain time. They were also sure the Sardaukar were going to employed in disguise by the harkonnens. What they didn’t understand was the escale of wealth the harkonnens were siphoning out of Arrakis, and by extension the capability of the baron to get just bring more troops to the fight than ever before. The baron invested 80’s of spice profits to foot the bill for the attacks, and the atreides had no idea that much money existed. In the book both Thufir and Duncan are gobsmacked the size of the Harkonnens armies against them, (I think thufir mentioning that the carthag attackers had like 5 to 1 superiority). Also in the book artillery plays a big role. But that seals the victory more than being the basis of it I guess.
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Jun 9, 2023 04:29
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I don't believe it was implied but straight up said. There was a general opinion among the houses that Atreides house guard were every bit the equal of the Saduakar and this convinced the paranoid Emperor that they were planning a coup. It says a lot about the implications of feudal politics that simply being competent and caring a bit about your people and your ability to defend them is considered suspicious and dangerous.
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Jun 9, 2023 07:42
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I think it was ten years of the entire profit of dune to pay for killing the atreides.
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Jun 9, 2023 12:41
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Yeah, it was basically a perfect storm of nearly unforeseeable things coming together that just overwhelmed any preparations Leto could've made. Starts out with Vladimir near enough bankrupting his house on a gigantic attack, leaving himself critically vulnerable (in a way that very likely would've seen him dead sooner rather than later). That, they might still have fought off with their prepared defenses and well-trained guard. But then there's the regiment of Sardaukar that crucially tipped the balance of power against them, also an unprecedented degree of involvement by the Emperor. Even that might not have been the end of it, they might conceivably have managed a fighting retreat into the desert and come back swinging with Fremen support. But then finally you had Yueh, critically facilitating the attack and taking out Leto himself, immediately kneecapping any hope of an organised response.
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Jun 9, 2023 13:03
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It says a lot about the implications of feudal politics that simply being competent and caring a bit about your people and your ability to defend them is considered suspicious and dangerous.
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Jun 9, 2023 14:10
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Nektu posted:Not really. Its just about power, and it doesn't really matter if that power is created by absolute oppression or by buying the loyalty of your subordinates (and of other houses) by having honor and helping them out. I think part of the point is that being suspicious of a leader like Leto is a tacit admission that honor and whatnot are better at creating power, it's just that neither the Emperor nor the Harkonnens can be arsed to follow through on it so they rather go after Leto.
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Jun 9, 2023 14:26
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Perestroika posted:Yeah, it was basically a perfect storm of nearly unforeseeable things coming together that just overwhelmed any preparations Leto could've made. Starts out with Vladimir near enough bankrupting his house on a gigantic attack, leaving himself critically vulnerable (in a way that very likely would've seen him dead sooner rather than later). That, they might still have fought off with their prepared defenses and well-trained guard. But then there's the regiment of Sardaukar that crucially tipped the balance of power against them, also an unprecedented degree of involvement by the Emperor. Even that might not have been the end of it, they might conceivably have managed a fighting retreat into the desert and come back swinging with Fremen support. But then finally you had Yueh, critically facilitating the attack and taking out Leto himself, immediately kneecapping any hope of an organised response. And it all comes back to bite them anyway because they at least nominally gave the house they're so afraid of a legitimate claim on the most important planet in the galaxy.
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Jun 9, 2023 14:30
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Grendels Dad posted:I think part of the point is that being suspicious of a leader like Leto is a tacit admission that honor and whatnot are better at creating power, it's just that neither the Emperor nor the Harkonnens can be arsed to follow through on it so they rather go after Leto. Maybe. On the other hand letos way of doing things allowed for successful diplomacy with the other smaller houses, something that the harconnens would never manage. If Leto would not have roused the rabble so to speak, he would just have been considered a honorable fool.
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Jun 9, 2023 15:08
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Arglebargle III posted:IMO Leto played his hand correctly. There wasn't really a better option available to him. porfiria posted:Do shields transfer momentum? If a car hit you while you had shield would you get pancaked against the inside of the shield or what? Perestroika posted:Yeah, it was basically a perfect storm of nearly unforeseeable things coming together that just overwhelmed any preparations Leto could've made. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 15:17
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edit:dp
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Jun 9, 2023 15:23
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And the funny thing is that the Emperor had a peaceful option right there the entire time, Leto had specifically not married Jessica specifically to leave himself open to a political marriage- like say, to Irulan, and if you make such a popular and formidable guy heir apparent to the Emperor then he's got nothing further to gain. (besides maybe the Emperor himself worried about being, ahem, made to pass on succession earlier than he'd like, which Leto would never do but he def wouldn't believe that)Halloween Jack posted:And not only do you have the unprecedented collusion between the Emperor, the Guild, the Harkonnens, and a turned Suk doctor, but the implication of all of these things: they're willing to cripple the galactic economy in order to win. If the Landsraad found out what they did, they'd almost certainly be looking at a revolution or total collapse. To let this slide would be to accept that the Emperor can and will exterminate any Great House whenever it suits him, and in favour of degenerates like the Harkonnen, to add insult to injury. And really, the only reason this worst-case scenario didn't come to fruition is because an even worse case happened- a Hero emerged. Actually that coming out probably would go a ways to legitimising Paul's claim to the throne, that he played the hand he was dealt in an all-or-nothing game.
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Jun 10, 2023 05:44
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Ghost Leviathan posted:And the funny thing is that the Emperor had a peaceful option right there the entire time, Leto had specifically not married Jessica specifically to leave himself open to a political marriage- like say, to Irulan, and if you make such a popular and formidable guy heir apparent to the Emperor then he's got nothing further to gain. (besides maybe the Emperor himself worried about being, ahem, made to pass on succession earlier than he'd like, which Leto would never do but he def wouldn't believe that) That doesn’t make sense. If the Emperor had a son, sure. But there’s no reason to marry Irulan off to Leto and hand the Golden Lion Throne to the Atreides.
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Jun 10, 2023 10:11
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Grendels Dad posted:I think part of the point is that being suspicious of a leader like Leto is a tacit admission that honor and whatnot are better at creating power, it's just that neither the Emperor nor the Harkonnens can be arsed to follow through on it so they rather go after Leto. For me, the implication is that honor and loyalty are nothing more than disguises that the powerful cloak themselves with. The difference between the Vladimir and Leto is aesthetics.
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Jun 10, 2023 14:30
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:For me, the implication is that honor and loyalty are nothing more than disguises that the powerful cloak themselves with. The difference between the Vladimir and Leto is aesthetics. I personally agree with that sentiment but I don't think that's what Herbert was going for.
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Jun 10, 2023 16:09
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kalel posted:I personally agree with that sentiment but I don't think that's what Herbert was going for. Eh, I get the feeling that Herbert was implying to a degree that Leto's good qualities are legit but he's also still a feudal ruler with everything that implies, and continuing to operate within that system makes him complicit in its horrors as much as the Harkonnens. Leto II's whole thing is outright saying there's really no 'good' way to be a feudal overlord so he's going to turn it all up to 11 until humanity is ready to look for literally any alternative.
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Jun 10, 2023 16:30
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Jewmanji posted:That doesn’t make sense. If the Emperor had a son, sure. But there’s no reason to marry Irulan off to Leto and hand the Golden Lion Throne to the Atreides. Except the book is very explicit that the Emperor wanted the Duke as a son: quote:"Princess-daughter," my father said, "I would that you’d been older when it came time for this man to choose a woman." My father was 71 at the time and looking no older than the man in the portrait, and I was but 14, yet I remember deducing in that instant that my father secretly wished the Duke had been his son, and disliked the political necessities that made them enemies. Now the question is, would Leto have married Irulan if the Emperor had offered her hand in marriage while still with Jessica? I don't think so. quote:"He hasn't married you," Hawat said.
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Jun 10, 2023 17:48
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Irulan is writing that in the context of being the hagiographer of the Atreides empire and the daughter of the Emperor her husband Paul Atreides overthrew. She might not be a totally reliable reporter of her father's opinions about Duke Leto Atreides.
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Jun 10, 2023 18:58
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sebmojo posted:They were relying on their shield and that the harkonnens would do the usual petty sabotage stuff, instead of spunking ten years of arrakis' entire spice production into a single attack. The book does a better job of selling how Leto, Thufir, etc. would have easily sniffed all this out and thwarted it if they were the people they were like ten years prior. Instead each of Leto's inner circle gets the initial inkling that something is up but doesn't follow through on it effectively, like Thufir DOES notice that they're finding shield sabotage devices too easily, but doesn't take that to its conclusion of "maybe sabotaging the shield this way isn't their actual goal." Jessica knows something is up with Yueh but despite her extreme mental abilities doesn't push it any further because it might hurt his feelings, Leto himself gets to the first point of "we know this is a trap" but is tired from years of this poo poo and rolls into it assuming they have lots of time to master the desert/ally with the Fremen/etc. - he both sees the urgency and importance of Dune and how they're being sent their to die but also gambles that they still have tons of time to stop falling into a trap he's already in. I found that interesting in the book because everyone's got some high tier mental acuity in one way or another but no one wants to just talk about this stuff for more than few minutes with anyone else, and I do think it was a bit intentional on Herbert's part that these characters that very early on are built up like they're the warrior titans of the imperium are more reputation than the real thing at this point in their lives. I think it's unfortunate that in all three adaptations we've gotten Leto is played by a great actor but also gets very one note writing because the movie already knows he's not going to be around long. Like I was genuinely surprised reading the book at how casually the Baron just gets owned towards the end - the party scene, his conversations with Thufir, etc., he's always making new plans, always looking forward, the book isn't written as if "it" already knows the Baron's not going to survive the book*. So in the adaptations he stops planning beyond hey I guess the Fremen are our friends now that might be useful later, eh. That's not a huge deviation from the book, but without all that extra context it makes him (and by extension the Atreides house) seem noticeably incompetent and doesn't totally get across why the Emperor would want him and his family bumped off beyond the emperor/harkonnens are the Bad Guys and the noble Atreides are the Good Guys. This is an instance where the Lynch movie surpasses the other. Weirding modules are dumb as poo poo but it does, without internal monologues, get across how much things are in favor of Leto and House Atreides. The accepted balance is that no one house can take the Emperor and his Sardaukar, and all houses uniting is impossible from infighitng/competition. It makes it more clear that House Atreides has attained such prowess and insight into combat and their equipment that they just need a few allies and not all houses if they wanted to make a play for the throne. So they're a threat to the emperor whether or not that's Leto's longterm goal. Oscar Isaac's performance is extremely good, since it leans into the inevitability of the forces against them just being too powerful to counter. The way you see it really sink in when he accepts the assignment from the Herald was excellent. I do think Irulan is correct in her deduction in the book too, I'm sure the Emperor would love if someone who rose in popularity and power as Leto did over the years was a loyal kid of his. Waste of good material as the Baron would put it. *I know his presence is felt (  ) in Messiah/etc. but you get my point
Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 19:36
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Arglebargle III posted:Irulan is writing that in the context of being the hagiographer of the Atreides empire and the daughter of the Emperor her husband Paul Atreides overthrew. Irulan only wrote the bits that are quoted at the beginning of the chapters. She can't be an unreliable narrator because she's not the narrator.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:13
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Xiahou Dun posted:Irulan only wrote the bits that are quoted at the beginning of the chapters. It's a literal quote from the Princess, referring to herself as "me," and is written as an excerpt from "In My Father's House" by Irulan.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:20
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Baron von Eevl posted:It's a literal quote from the Princess, referring to herself as "me," and is written as an excerpt from "In My Father's House" by Irulan. Well never mind. 'Tis I who is the dumb rear end. My bad.
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Jun 10, 2023 20:21
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I hope they made Chalamet do a little physical training to sell that he's been in the desert two years. He's not young enough that he'll visually mature. Not bulk up exactly but like look older. Allison Brie looked 19 until she got in shape in her mid 30s.
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Jun 11, 2023 01:28
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Arglebargle III posted:Irulan is writing that in the context of being the hagiographer of the Atreides empire and the daughter of the Emperor her husband Paul Atreides overthrew. But all of the epigraphs that Irulan writes at the beginning of each chapter kind of foreshadow the contents of that chapter. That particular one talks about how the Emperor wanted to ally with the Atreides but couldn't due to the politics of the time. In the chapter itself, we're introduced to Kynes (the Emperor's representative as Judge of the Change) and we see that he's initially very resistant to the Duke, Paul and Gurney (House Atreides)... but then comes to like the Duke despite having to be his adversary. Irulan's writing about the Emperor's thoughts toward Leto may be well apocryphal for all we know though, of course. 
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Jun 11, 2023 04:54
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The guild know about the attack but they are not in the Emperor's side till the flow of spice starts to dwindle down in the final part of the book. Thuffir mentions how expensive the whole operation must have been for the harkonnens, estimating 50's of spice income. The baron later is pushy af with Rabban about income. Unless I'm mistaken, they were happy to transport the harkonnens to the Arrakis because whoever controls the planet is meaningless to them. They cannot comprehend someone being so mad that would not play by civilised society rules and metaphorically flip the table of the galactic economy.
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Jun 12, 2023 03:41
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In the movies and books a Suk doctor's training is supposed to make them all but impossible to turn, yet Yueh is broken because they went after his wife? That seems like one of the first and most obvious options to make someone betray their house.
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Jun 12, 2023 03:47
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Jessica also turns against her BG teachings out of love. Harkonnen twists mentats with their emotional desires and vices. Paul and his son Leto both break eventually over love. As a matter of worldbuilding it's rather silly that this so-called inviolable conditioning is broken by something so trivially obvious, but thematically love and other high-intensity emotions are some of the most powerful forces in the universe. Attempts to constrain the human will by conditioning and training are just as much folly as pursuing the overman and expecting him to be beholden to you once realized.
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Jun 12, 2023 03:56
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Neo Rasa posted:Oscar Isaac's performance is extremely good, since it leans into the inevitability of the forces against them just being too powerful to counter. The way you see it really sink in when he accepts the assignment from the Herald was excellent. I read isaac's "it's done?" as "is the ceremony over yet?" while clementine's (the herald's) "it's done" is "your fate is sealed." as a whole, the movie's most prominent theme is the concept of inevitability. not just with leto essentially signing his own death certificate in the ceremony scene, but with Paul and his visions. paul's main dramatic arc is learning to "go with the flow of the process." instead of fighting the storm, he lets go of the controls. instead of sparing jamis, he kills him, and in so doing, learns the ways of the desert. the dramatic irony of leto's story is that he *must* die because he must be karmically punished for the sin of trying to fight against the inevitability of his own death.
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Jun 12, 2023 04:10
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My take on the Yueh thing in the books was always that it was less “we have your wife” and more about engineering a situation where Yueh would trolley problem himself into a situation where helping the Harkonnens was the best route forward, and the baron really didn’t give a poo poo about the specifics of what Yueh told himself as long as he helped bring down the Atreides.
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Jun 12, 2023 14:32
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IIRC I thought there was mention or implication that Yueh's wife was a Bene Gesserit whose techniques could override his conditioning.
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Jun 12, 2023 14:47
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:My take on the Yueh thing in the books was always that it was less “we have your wife” and more about engineering a situation where Yueh would trolley problem himself into a situation where helping the Harkonnens was the best route forward, and the baron really didn’t give a poo poo about the specifics of what Yueh told himself as long as he helped bring down the Atreides. Yeah, from Yueh's internal monologue and dying words in the book, I took it that killing the Baron was his plan all along, and that delivering Leto as a prize was simply the only way to get close enough. Yueh was simply helping Leto take out his mortal enemy at all costs. Sure, this particular step didn't quite work out, but the end result of Yueh's actions was that the Atreides defeated the Harkonnens, so mission accomplished!
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Jun 12, 2023 15:55
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GlassEye-Boy posted:In the movies and books a Suk doctor's training is supposed to make them all but impossible to turn, yet Yueh is broken because they went after his wife? That seems like one of the first and most obvious options to make someone betray their house.
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Jun 12, 2023 16:02
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Ghost Leviathan posted:IIRC I thought there was mention or implication that Yueh's wife was a Bene Gesserit whose techniques could override his conditioning.
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Jun 12, 2023 16:23
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Halloween Jack posted:No matter how you slice it, it always seemed to me like the flimsiest part of the Baron's plan. (In terms of why we, as the audience are supposed to buy it.) In a world where everybody is a supergenius doing this I-knew-that-you-knew-that-I-knew thing. I took it as an indication that there's such a high level of presumed sociopathy in the powerful that as a baseline you'd rarely expect to compromise someone through their loved ones.
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Jun 12, 2023 17:04
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hump day bitches! posted:The guild know about the attack but they are not in the Emperor's side till the flow of spice starts to dwindle down in the final part of the book. The Guild is too dependent on spice to just not care about who runs Arrakis. They're complicit in the plot just by agreeing to do the troop transport and keep it a secret. They still charge the Baron astronomical fees because, to paraphrase Mohiam, they have no ideology beyond Number Go Up. Going back to stuff I was saying earlier, the Harkonnens sabotaged a bunch of poo poo before and after they left, on top of not actually running Arrakis efficiently. If I remember right, Leto plans to go to the Landsraad and just lay out the situation, explaining how they've been set up to fail and it's hurting everyone. But the trap snaps shut much, much sooner than he could have anticipated. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 18:29
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Was the Baron having respect for the power the Fremen had, just not the Fremen themselves, in the book or just part of the adaptations? I remember his plan in the miniseries was to have Rabban squeeze arrakis to replenish his coffers and piss off the Fremen, then offer Rabban as sacrifice and Fayid as savior, then use the Fremen as soldiers to overthrow the Emperor. I remember the Miniseries being fairly faithful to what happened, just moved some dialogue around to give some characters more to do. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 19:20
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